Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[ProDeo]

Christ did not literally descend from heaven!

Oh Face.... what happened 30 years ago that makes you now say stupid things like this.

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

3 verses later -

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Go back 30 years in time and reanalyze.

 

[Johann]

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

[Q] - Was the Person (not a human) in heaven (who descended) a created Being or not?

Correct brother.

John 3:13 states: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (Textus Receptus).

This verse contains profound Christological and theological implications, particularly concerning the preexistence and nature of the one who "descended." The key question centers on whether the one who descended was a created being or not.

1. Preexistence of the Son of Man
The statement presupposes that the Son of Man existed before his incarnation. This aligns with other texts that affirm Jesus' preexistence, such as John 1:1-3, which declares:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

If "all things" were made by him, this excludes him from being a created being, as he is identified as the Creator.

2. Descended from Heaven
The phrase "descended from heaven" reflects the Son of Man's divine origin and nature. Philippians 2:6-7 offers a significant commentary on this descent:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

The one who descended was in the morphē theou (form of God) prior to taking on human likeness, emphasizing his divine essence rather than a created status.

3. Not a Created Being

Colossians 1:15-17 reinforces the Son's uncreated nature:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

The title "firstborn" (prōtotokos) is best understood as a position of preeminence rather than indicating created origin. Christ is "before all things," and his role in sustaining creation affirms his divine eternality.

4. Christ's Own Testimony

In John 17:5, Jesus prays:
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

This prayer clearly points to the Son's shared divine glory with the Father before creation, showing his eternal nature.

5. LXX and Typological Considerations
Though not explicit in John 3:13, passages like Proverbs 8:22-31 (understood typologically by some early Christians) emphasize the wisdom of God as a preexistent, active agent in creation. These descriptions often find fulfillment in Christ as the divine Logos, not as a created being but as eternal wisdom personified.

Conclusion from Scripture
The "Son of Man" who descended from heaven was not a created being. Instead, he was the eternal, divine Word of God, coexistent with the Father, who took on human nature in the incarnation. His preexistence, divine works, and relationship with the Father affirm his uncreated and eternal essence.

Your question to @face2face is valid but see for yourself how he's "dancing around"

J.

 

[face2face]

Oh Face.... what happened 30 years ago that makes you now say stupid things like this.

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

3 verses later -
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Go back 30 years in time and reanalyze.

It's clear you are struggling with this Pro.

We’ve already been given the account, so why resist?

In Luke 1:35 "the angel tells Mary that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her, and the power of God will come upon her.

But where does it say that Jesus, the Son of Man, came down literally from Heaven and entered into Mary?

Be careful not to fall into hypocrisy Pro—it's actually you who are now bordering on insults!

I do find it somewhat satisfying to see, though.

F2F."

 

[face2face]

Correct brother.

John 3:13 states: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (Textus Receptus).

This verse contains profound Christological and theological implications, particularly concerning the preexistence and nature of the one who "descended." The key question centers on whether the one who descended was a created being or not.

1. Preexistence of the Son of Man
The statement presupposes that the Son of Man existed before his incarnation. This aligns with other texts that affirm Jesus' preexistence, such as John 1:1-3, which declares:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

If "all things" were made by him, this excludes him from being a created being, as he is identified as the Creator.

2. Descended from Heaven
The phrase "descended from heaven" reflects the Son of Man's divine origin and nature. Philippians 2:6-7 offers a significant commentary on this descent:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

The one who descended was in the morphē theou (form of God) prior to taking on human likeness, emphasizing his divine essence rather than a created status.

3. Not a Created Being

Colossians 1:15-17 reinforces the Son's uncreated nature:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

The title "firstborn" (prōtotokos) is best understood as a position of preeminence rather than indicating created origin. Christ is "before all things," and his role in sustaining creation affirms his divine eternality.

4. Christ's Own Testimony

In John 17:5, Jesus prays:
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

This prayer clearly points to the Son's shared divine glory with the Father before creation, showing his eternal nature.

5. LXX and Typological Considerations
Though not explicit in John 3:13, passages like Proverbs 8:22-31 (understood typologically by some early Christians) emphasize the wisdom of God as a preexistent, active agent in creation. These descriptions often find fulfillment in Christ as the divine Logos, not as a created being but as eternal wisdom personified.

Conclusion from Scripture
The "Son of Man" who descended from heaven was not a created being. Instead, he was the eternal, divine Word of God, coexistent with the Father, who took on human nature in the incarnation. His preexistence, divine works, and relationship with the Father affirm his uncreated and eternal essence.

Your question to @face2face is valid but see for yourself how he's "dancing around"

J.

Bring out those well worn paths, Johann!

Hope you had a good rest!

Right now, the back-and-forth is with Pro, who seems unable to prove that Jesus, the Son of Man, was already in Heaven and then came down in what form?

It seems like your imaginations have gotten a bit carried away..."

It is a little comical to watch Pro try as he might to prove the trinity from John 3:13!

F2F

 

[Johann]

Bring out those well worn paths, Johann!

Hope you had a good rest!

Right now, the back-and-forth is with Pro, who seems unable to prove that Jesus, the Son of Man, was already in Heaven and then came down in what form?

It seems like your imaginations have gotten a bit carried away..."

It is a little comical to watch Pro try as he might to prove the trinity from John 3:13!

Exegete John 1.1 for me-should be interesting-problematic for Jewish monotheists, now let's see how you use it.

J.

 

[face2face]

Exegete John 1.1 for me-should be interesting-problematic for Jewish monotheists, now let's see how you use it.

J.

I find you and Pro's post's rather boring at present to be straight with you.

Your reasoning would have John in Heaven with Jesus also?

“A man came, sent from God, whose name was John” John 1:6

"Now, I understand this is idiomatic and in no way am I forcing the interpretation of John 'coming from God' in the way you both might interpret it!"

Please reasure me you don't belive John came down with Jesus? Of course then you need to consider how both John and Jesus were sent from God.

Both were the work of the Holy Spirit power!
Both were miracles
One differs from the other though, right Johann?

That would certainly send me to bed!

F2F

 

[Stumpmaster]

It's clear you are struggling with this Pro.

We’ve already been given the account, so why resist?

In Luke 1:35 "the angel tells Mary that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her, and the power of God will come upon her.

But where does it say that Jesus, the Son of Man, came down literally from Heaven and entered into Mary?

Be careful not to fall into hypocrisy Pro—it's actually you who are now bordering on insults!

I do find it somewhat satisfying to see, though.

F2F."

In the verses below Paul in speaking about the measure of Christ's gift expounds with a reference from Ps.68:18 and points out that in order to ascend Christ first had to descend, which was achieved when Mary conceived through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:7-10 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. (8) Therefore He says: "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (9) (Now this, "HE ASCENDED"—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

[ProDeo]

I think it’s amazing how God uses different channels/ vessels to get his message across to us...

Got being one of them, lol.

The Living Holy Spirit is another...the Bible etc.

The Bible being the main one ...as what we hear, the Bible must agree with it.....imo.

God will never contradict His word the Bible.

Short commentary.

God likes to talk to us through many channels - like the Bible, prayer, and even through other Christians. So when we make time to be quiet and listen to him, we can be confident that He's talking to us. This confidence comes from having faith in Jesus and knowing that the Holy Spirit is always leading us.


RJ says....the Living testimony is always with us in our spirit.....witnessing that we are children of the most high...our Spirit Father, God.

As we continue to walk in faith, trust and belief...in God....we go from strength to strength...but, the road has been / is far from easy....true what God says about that narrow road/ path..

2 Cor 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

I like this verse, daily many thoughts enter our brain from all kind directions, in this forum we receive thoughts from others. Paul says capture them and trust them to the indwelling Holy Spirit who reprogrammed our conscience after our repentance.

Rom 12:2 - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

[Ritajanice]

2 Cor 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

I like this verse, daily many thoughts enter our brain from all kind directions, in this forum we receive thoughts from others. Paul says capture them and trust them to the indwelling Holy Spirit who reprogrammed our conscience after our repentance.

Rom 12:2 - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Short commentary about what God has to say about staying open minded.

In the context of Proverbs 18:15, we see a clear call to be seekers of knowledge. This isn't just any knowledge, but the knowledge that comes from God. An open mind is like fertile soil, ready to receive the seeds of divine wisdom that God sows.

 

[ProDeo]

Your comprehension needs a lot of work Pro!

What type of person asks a flawed question more than once?

How about we move you from John 3:13 to John 8:23?

John 8:23 (ESV) says:

"He said to them, 'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

Try asking an "intelligent" question from this passage!

If you combine the two - here is a really good question for you Pro!

Was it Jesus (person) who came down from Heaven or was it the Holy Spirit (God's Power?)

What do you say?

F2F

By your own admission Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two separate Beings and They are ONE.

You are making progress.

 

[face2face]

In the verses below Paul in speaking about the measure of Christ's gift expounds with a reference from Ps.68:18 and points out that in order to ascend Christ first had to descend, which was achieved when Mary conceived through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:7-10 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. (8) Therefore He says: "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (9) (Now this, "HE ASCENDED"—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Hi Stumpmaster

Thanks for the post!

"I’ve been taking my time trying to help Pro understand the work of the Holy Spirit and the power of God.

It's slow going

F2F

 

[face2face]

By your own admission Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two separate Beings and They are ONE.

You are making progress.

Comprehension Pro!

Jesus was given life as a person in Mary and the HS is God's Power

Anything else this fine evening?

F2F

 

[Johann]

“A man came, sent from God, whose name was John” John 1:6

Don't "dance" around with me--it is boring coming from you as you are evasive and not truthful.

I said-exegete John 1.1 for me without twisting the Scriptures. Problematic for Jewish monotheists, problematic for you.
Joh 3:11 'Verily, verily, I say to thee—What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;
Joh 3:12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?
Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down—the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
Joh 3:14 'And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

J.

 

[face2face]

Rom 12:2 - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Yes a renovation of the mind is what is required...clean it all out but don't leave it empty! Fill it with sound teaching.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Don't "dance" around with me--it is boring coming from you as you are evasive and not truthful.

Johann, I thought you had moved on? I believe you mentioned being restrained a few times, around 5 or 6, perhaps? Anyway, I’m feeling quite relaxed (tonight) knowing this subject is now complete. Now, I’ll review the thread and go over all the points and unanswered questions, which, as you know, is quite a long list.

I believe you and Pro will feature heavily in the review.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Johann, I thought you had moved on? I believe you mentioned being restrained a few times, around 5 or 6, perhaps? Anyway, I’m feeling quite relaxed (tonight) knowing this subject is now complete. Now, I’ll review the thread and go over all the points and unanswered questions, which, as you know, is quite a long list.

I believe you and Pro will feature heavily in the review.

F2F

Thank you for admitting you are stumped. Your refusal to exegete John 1.1 duly noted.

Job 38:2:

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

This verse introduces God’s response to Job, highlighting human limitations in understanding divine wisdom and plans.

J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Just came back to this, so God just used her womb to grow Jesus in...that makes sense, he carried none of her sinful nature/ DNA.

His growth came from that of God, ...if he had, had a sinful nature then he could not have atoned for our sins, ?

So he was God’s perfection growing in Mary’s womb, without sin?

Atonement is “one for one”….a sinless life was lost for all of Adam’s children…..and only a sinless life could repay the debt.…and set us free from sin and it’s consequence….death.

The first Adam sinned, the second Adam was sinless, and was the atonement for our sins,.....without Jesus being perfect in every way, there would be no way back to the Father, Spiritual way back to the Father, our spirit is what is reunited back to God...

Nothing sinful can come before our perfect holy Father, so only the elimination of sin would grants us access to him again. Paul calls it a “reconciliation”…..a reuniting of two estranged parties for whom God himself provided a mediator.

Hence we must be Born Of The Spirit, therefore Jesus had to be that perfect Spirit Lamb, that came from God, ....God is Pure,Holy, And without sin, that’s why only his Son who came from the mouth/ seed of God, could be the atonement for our sin..

Because Jesus was from God, ( not saying he was God) he had to be Pure, Holy and without sin...Jesus was all 3 of those...

These are my thoughts at the moment on the subject matter at hand.

Understanding that not all are called to heaven, but only the elect, is important…because these are the chosen ones…those who will be “kings and priests” with Christ in the administration of his kingdom. (Rev 20:6)

The Kingdom will rule from heaven over a cleansed earth with redeemed mankind restored to sinless perfection so that God’s first purpose for the human race can finally be achieved.…everlasting life in paradise on earth.

In his Revelation, John saw two groups who were saved….one numbered…..and the other unnumbered…

Revelation 7:4; 9-10; 13-14…
“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”…

“After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

“In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”


Rev 14:1-5…..
”Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

The elect are the 144,000. “Firstfruits to God and the Lamb“…..these experience the “first resurrection”.
The general resurrection of the dead would begin later, (John 5:28-29) once Christ and his elect have dealt with wickedness and all who practice it….restoring God’s first purpose. (Rev 21:2-4)

What God starts….he finishes. (Isa 55:11)

 

[face2face]

Thank you for admitting you are stumped. Your refusal to exegete John 1.1 duly noted.

Job 38:2:

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

This verse introduces God’s response to Job, highlighting human limitations in understanding divine wisdom and plans.

J.

I genuinely feel sorry for you, Johann. You have an abundance of man-made teachings at your disposal, but they are utterly worthless.

Let me ask you a question:

Has what you want to share been copied and pasted before in this thread or forum? How many times, and what has it accomplished?

You sent me links that openly admit to being formulated doctrine from creeds and councils.

I have other studies to focus on tonight, which are far more profitable than anything you’re about to share.

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

Atonement is “one for one”….a sinless life was lost for all of Adam’s children…..and only a sinless life could repay the debt.…and set us free from sin and it’s consequence….death.

The blood of Jesus also had to be Pure, Holy, without blemish, otherwise he could not have atoned for our sins.

Nothing sinful can come before our perfect holy Father, so only the elimination of sin would grants us access to him again. Paul calls it a “reconciliation”…..a reuniting of two estranged parties for whom God himself provided a mediator.

Understanding that not all are called to heaven, but only the elect, is important…because these are the chosen ones…those who will be “kings and priests” with Christ in the administration of his kingdom. (Rev 20:6)

The Born Again are those of the elect, for they have been supernaturally birthed, by the Living Holy Spirit...they were chosen and predestined to become children of God before the foundation of the world.

The Kingdom will rule from heaven over a cleansed earth with redeemed mankind restored to sinless perfection so that God’s first purpose for the human race can finally be achieved.…everlasting life in paradise on earth.

In his Revelation, John saw two groups who were saved….one numbered…..and the other unnumbered…

Revelation 7:4; 9-10; 13-14…
“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”…

“After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

“In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”


Rev 14:1-5…..
”Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

Don’t understand any of this Aunty, so can’t agree.

The elect are the 144,000. “Firstfruits to God and the Lamb“…..these experience the “first resurrection”.
The general resurrection of the dead would begin later, (John 5:28-29) once Christ and his elect have dealt with wickedness and all who practice it….restoring God’s first purpose. (Rev 21:2-4)

..Jesus is the first fruit...we the Born Again are his harvest..I may be wrong about harvest, I posted before I checked with Gods word..

People also ask
Is Jesus the Lord of the harvest?
As Lord of the Harvest, Christ uses his disciples as workers of the harvest, gathering others by their faith in him. The words spoken by Jesus are still true today, “the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few” (Matthew 9:37).

What God starts….he finishes. (Isa 55:11)

Yes, once Born Again, we are being conformed into the image of Jesus...God will continue to work in his children, by the power of the Holy Spirit, who indwells our spirit.

Gods Living testimony is the Living Holy Spirit, he testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God....Spirit children.

The Born Again are Saints and heirs with Christ...when we die , our spirit goes straight back to God...

 

[ProDeo]

Johann, I thought you had moved on? I believe you mentioned being restrained a few times, around 5 or 6, perhaps? Anyway, I’m feeling quite relaxed (tonight) knowing this subject is now complete. Now, I’ll review the thread and go over all the points and unanswered questions, which, as you know, is quite a long list.

I believe you and Pro will feature heavily in the review.

F2F

Sure, fry us