Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Contradicts Scripture AND the trinity doctrine (which is inherently contradictory). God cannot be:
- A 3 member committee.
- One member of the committee is fully God.
Exploring Trinitarian Logic
- Thread starter RedFan
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i was invited over to a friends house.
My friend lives alone and needed company so my son an di went over to watch some sports = priority
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
OK - let's take a LOOK at Genesis 1:1-3 and John 1:1-3
In the beginning Elohim(Plural) created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of ELohim was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then Elohim Said(WORD)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He/Word was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him/Word, and without Him/Word nothing was made that was made.
Very CLEAR that Elohim FATHER and Elohim Word/Son and Elohim Spirit created all things
Genesis 1:26 - Let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness
Very clear that Elohim is PLURAL = "Us, Our , Our" = gives us the first declaration of THREE
Neither can we humans conceptualize this PLURALITY of ELOHIM.
Therefore Elohim wrote a children's Book for us by which HE designed living people as allegorical Truth that we may SEE.
VERY SMART Elohim
SHALOM
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Pure desperation is kicking in here! @Wrangler @APAK (you both will want to look at this one!)
This is a great example of a person (David) who is immature in the things of God, one who has not put in the require effort to learn but one who needs to be taught!
How does God interpret this in relation to Jesus?
Revelation 4:8 (ESV) says:
"And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!'"
That is, the "Most Holy!"
The "Most Holy" symbolizes the immortal state that Christ took on at his resurrection (Heb 10:19-20). He has "passed through" (Greek: diēlthen) the heavens (Heb 4:14), meaning he passed through the three stages of holiness represented by the Tabernacle and Temple:
(1) the court
(2) the holy place
(3) the most holy.
In constantly proclaiming "Holy, holy, holy," the glorified and redeemed will manifest the "most holy" state to the world. These words are cited from Isaiah 6:1-3, a vision that pertains to the Lord Jesus Christ AND the redeemed in glory, as John testifies. For when John references this chapter, he adds: "These things said Isaiah when he saw His glory and spoke of Him" (John 12:41).
AND who was being Glorified in the ultimate sense?
"Lord God Almighty"
In Hebrew: Yahweh Elohim of Armies. The title signifies He who shall be mighty ones of armies. It is the belligerent name ot Deity, used when His power is manifest in subduing flesh.
You see, David, if you truly know God, understand how He communicates, and recognize how He works according to the Divine pattern, you will gain an understanding that far exceeds that of your Trinitarian bro's & sis's!
But wait...there is more!
What do you learn from this 3x Holy!
We (the Saints) also have the knowledge of the glory of the Lord revealed in the face of Jesus Christ. May we, like Isaiah, be willing to say, "Here am I, send me," recognizing that through the atonement accomplished by Jesus and the grace of God freely given to us, we too can be forgiven and made righteous before Him. (Acts 20:24, Eph. 3:8)
F2F
(@Johann - hence why he could not passed through the physical Temple made with hands because he was NOT a Levitical High Priest! - he had to become one!)
Last edited:
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Holy Holy Holy
Lord God Almighty
But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Your BLINDNESS has been exposed = many times
Last edited:
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
It is, and it will ultimately be revealed as one of the most destructive forces in the world. Can you imagine how the Apostles will respond when they are risen and glorified, seeing the spiritual devastation caused by this? The atrocities committed in the name of this god.
Read The Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of Witches), written in 1486 by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger, two German inquisitors. This document, endorsed by the church, became a manual for hunting and prosecuting witches. You can access it here: Project Gutenberg.
And what of the Inquistions and Crusdaes?
It's why the Lord Jesus provided the Revelation for those believers to understand the period of time in which the lived and remain "out of her"
F2F
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Which is why i cannot accept the traditional creedal trinity. Doesn't mean however that i reject the Father, Son, and holy Spirit. What it does mean is that i stand by my contention from the beginning. The Son, in His preexistence, was begotten of God, therefore before creation was the only begotten Son of God. That truth, that the Son was brought forth from God, (NOT created) is all the evidence one needs to accept Christ's divinity. The only way Satan can oppose this teaching is to oppose Christ's Sonship. Which he attempted to do during Christ's temptation in the wilderness. Which he did through heretical teachings that arose during the late first century through Cerinthus and the Docetae, and later through the trinity, and to this day through you guys.
You fellas need to read the gospel of John again several times. And his first 2 letters. All written in order to present truth in the face of those denying the literal Father/ Son paradigm.
No-one has yet presented to me overwhelming biblical evidence that contradicts the above.
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
You have sailed close to the truth Brakelite and all is needed is a heavy gust to get you there.
No one in this forum, to my knowledge, has denied the Sonship of Jesus. What I have denied is his preexistence, because he cannot be the firstborn from the dead if He preexisted as an immortal. This undermines the entire work of God and diminishes its authenticity.
How can an immortal son become sin's flesh only to be reborn as an immortal and be called a firstfruit of all them that sleep?
You know it doesn't make sense because it simply doesn't.
With that knowledge Rev 1:18 is a "so what" moment because you say in your mind - who cares he was always immortal!
My God doesn’t operate that way, Brakelite, because He faces His Enemy head-on, without relying on any tricks!
F2F
Ritajanice
Born-Again
(Exodus 40:1–33; Acts 7:44–47) 1Now the first covenanta had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2A tabernacle was prepared. In its first room were the lampstand, the table, and the consecrated bread.b This was called the Holy Place. 3Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place,c 4containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat.d But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6When everything had been prepared in this way, the priests entered regularly into the first room to perform their sacred duties. 7But only the high priest entered the second room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Placee had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9It is an illustration for the present time, because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper.10They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform. Redemption through His Blood 11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come,f He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify ourg consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God! 15Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16In the case of a will,h it is necessary to establish the death of the one who made it, 17because a will does not take effect until the one who made it has died; it cannot be executed while he is still alive. 18That is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19For when Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats,i along with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people, 20saying, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”j 21In the same way, he sprinkled with blood the tabernacle and all the vessels used in worship. 22According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23So it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God. 25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him. |
Ritajanice
Born-Again
JUB
And he is the head of the body, the congregation, {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones} who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
AKJV
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all thingshe might have the preeminence.
LSB
And He is the head of the body, the church; Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
LEB
and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,
TLB
He is the Head of the body made up of his people—that is, his Church—which he began; and he is the Leader of all those who arise from the dead, so that he is first in everything;
MSG
We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body. He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end. From beginning to end he’s there, towering far above everything, everyone. So spacious is he, so expansive, that everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The biblical argument for the pre-existence of Jesus is certainly multi-faceted. Pre-existence is defined as “existence in a former state or previous to something else.” In the case of Jesus Christ, His pre-existence means that, before He became a man and walked upon the earth, He was already in existence as the second Person of the triune God. The Bible not only explicitly teaches this doctrine but also implies this fact at various points throughout the Gospels and Epistles. In addition, Jesus’ own actions reveal His divine identity and, as a consequence, His pre-existence.
Several places in the New Testament explicitly teach Jesus’ pre-existence. Jesus said, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages. Jesus Himself explicitly taught His own pre-existence (John 3:13; 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28). Christ even said that He existed prior to Abraham’s birth (John 8:58–59) even though Abraham’s birth preceded Jesus’ own birth by many centuries! Several texts present Jesus as pre-existing with His Father (Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4). Several passages even identify Jesus as the Creator (John 1:2–3; Colossians 1:16–17; Hebrews 1:2).
Probably the most powerful evidence for the pre-existence of Christ was the very behavior of Jesus Himself. He was often doing and saying things that only the God of Israel had the right or power to do. Jesus’ healing of the paralytic in Mark 2 was done to demonstrate His authority and His ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:3–12). Jesus’ Jewish audience was well aware that such actions were reserved only for Yahweh. Jesus’ actions in Luke 7 drew a similar reaction (Luke 7:48–50).
That Jesus pre-existed in His divinity is further proven by His being the object of worship repeatedly in the Gospels (Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28). Never did Jesus reject such adoration. He saw such worship as entirely appropriate. Jesus implied that He had authority over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) as well as the authority to abolish the Law (Ephesians 2:14–15). Such behavior is sheer blasphemy coming from anyone short of a divine (and therefore pre-existent) Person.
In addition, Jesus identified Himself as the divine Son of Man (Mark 14:61–64) and claimed to be able to raise Himself from the dead (John 10:17–18)! This turned out to be the very miracle that He claimed would authenticate His radical claims and ministry (Matthew 12:38–40;16:1–4). Jesus accomplished this grand miracle and gave convincing proof of it (Luke 24:36–43; John 20:26; 21:1-14; Acts 1:3–6). This miracle established Jesus’ claim to deity and thus provides further confirmation of His pre-existence.
And he is the head of the body, the congregation, {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones} who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
AKJV
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all thingshe might have the preeminence.
LSB
And He is the head of the body, the church; Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
LEB
and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,
TLB
He is the Head of the body made up of his people—that is, his Church—which he began; and he is the Leader of all those who arise from the dead, so that he is first in everything;
MSG
We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body. He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end. From beginning to end he’s there, towering far above everything, everyone. So spacious is he, so expansive, that everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed
John 8:58-59
King James Version
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Commentary.
Does the Bible support the pre-existence of Jesus?
The biblical argument for the pre-existence of Jesus is certainly multi-faceted. Pre-existence is defined as “existence in a former state or previous to something else.” In the case of Jesus Christ, His pre-existence means that, before He became a man and walked upon the earth, He was already in existence as the second Person of the triune God. The Bible not only explicitly teaches this doctrine but also implies this fact at various points throughout the Gospels and Epistles. In addition, Jesus’ own actions reveal His divine identity and, as a consequence, His pre-existence.
Several places in the New Testament explicitly teach Jesus’ pre-existence. Jesus said, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages. Jesus Himself explicitly taught His own pre-existence (John 3:13; 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28). Christ even said that He existed prior to Abraham’s birth (John 8:58–59) even though Abraham’s birth preceded Jesus’ own birth by many centuries! Several texts present Jesus as pre-existing with His Father (Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4). Several passages even identify Jesus as the Creator (John 1:2–3; Colossians 1:16–17; Hebrews 1:2).
Probably the most powerful evidence for the pre-existence of Christ was the very behavior of Jesus Himself. He was often doing and saying things that only the God of Israel had the right or power to do. Jesus’ healing of the paralytic in Mark 2 was done to demonstrate His authority and His ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:3–12). Jesus’ Jewish audience was well aware that such actions were reserved only for Yahweh. Jesus’ actions in Luke 7 drew a similar reaction (Luke 7:48–50).
That Jesus pre-existed in His divinity is further proven by His being the object of worship repeatedly in the Gospels (Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28). Never did Jesus reject such adoration. He saw such worship as entirely appropriate. Jesus implied that He had authority over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) as well as the authority to abolish the Law (Ephesians 2:14–15). Such behavior is sheer blasphemy coming from anyone short of a divine (and therefore pre-existent) Person.
In addition, Jesus identified Himself as the divine Son of Man (Mark 14:61–64) and claimed to be able to raise Himself from the dead (John 10:17–18)! This turned out to be the very miracle that He claimed would authenticate His radical claims and ministry (Matthew 12:38–40;16:1–4). Jesus accomplished this grand miracle and gave convincing proof of it (Luke 24:36–43; John 20:26; 21:1-14; Acts 1:3–6). This miracle established Jesus’ claim to deity and thus provides further confirmation of His pre-existence.
Last edited:
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Why not?
You ask, how can that be, but cannot explain why it cannot be. With God all things are possible. Remember also, that The Son received life from the Father as His natural inheritance, and thus, immortality. Also, you guys keep maintaining that Christ did not become a Son until the resurrection, yet John the Baptist declared Him to be the Son of God... the Father declared Jesus to be the Son of God, twice... several of His disciples confessed the same... even demons called Jesus the Son of God, asking why He had come so soon to torment them.
Many times we are told that Jesus was the vehicle through which all things were created, including man. Therefore He existed before creation as the following testifies... so we know Jesus to be the Son of God Who created all things, was sent by the Father to becomes a human child and die as a human in order to redeem man from the bondage and slavery of sin and death.
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” Proverbs 8:22-31
This is referring to an act of God that happened prior to the creation of anything in the universe. This act is said to be the “beginning” of God’s “way”. It is therefore a happening in eternity (in infinity). Only God existed at this point (before anything was created) therefore this bringing forth (verses 24 and 25) can only be of God. Everything else, meaning everything God created, is external to Him. Christ is not external to God. He was brought forth of God therefore He is God. The early Christian writers applied these words to Christ. They spoke of these words as Christ being brought forth (begotten) of God. In this text (Proverbs 8:22) the word “beginning” is translated from the Hebrew re’shiyth. It is the same word as used in Genesis 1:1
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” Genesis 1:1
It can also be translated as ‘first’ (Numbers 15:20) or ‘firstfruits’ (Proverbs 3:9) etc. The “beginning” of Proverbs 8:22 must pre-date (antedate) the “beginning” of Genesis 1:1. This is because Solomon is referring to a point in eternity prior to anything having been created. For the same reason, the “beginning” of John 1:1 also predates (antedates) the “beginning” of Genesis 1:1 (see also Psalms 90:2, Micah 5:2).
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
With respect to the return of Jesus, an interesting verse of Scripture is this one.
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13
This is a specific reference to the second coming of Jesus. It is referring to Christ as “Saviour” and “the great God”. Some translations place a different emphasis on this verse.
“while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 NIV
“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13 NASB
“in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 Weymouth translation
“abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist;” Titus 2:13 Wycliffe Bible (1395)
In these translations, the emphasis is on the appearing of “glory”. This though does not change the fact that Christ is referred to here as our “Saviour” and “the great God”. In the Interpreter’s Bible it says (after saying that some translate this verse as meaning the Father and the Son) “It is preferable, however, to suppose with most commentators, ancient as well as modern, that both epithets refer to Jesus, even though nowhere else in the N.T. is Jesus spoken of as our great God. This is the natural construction in Greek of two nouns following one article (“the”)”. (The Interpreters Bible, Volume 11, pages 539-540, Comments on Titus 2:13)
Another three commentaries say the same. Note they all say that the parousia (the second coming) never includes the Father – only Christ.
In these last words not only does the grammar indicate that the inspired writer identified the Great God and the Saviour; not only is there a continuous chain of authorities, reaching from the apostolic age to our own, to this effect; but, further, the fact that “appearing” is a term peculiarly applied to the Son, and never to the Father, and that the immediate context especially refers to Christ, places it almost beyond doubt that our Blessed Lord is here said to be the great God;
and that in the words of Ellicott, “this text is a direct, definite, and even studied declaration of the Divinity of the Eternal Son.” (The Rev. Edward Henry Bickersteth, M. A., A practical and Explanatory Commentary on the New Testament)
“The text, declaring the true hope of the believer to be the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, bears attractive testimony to the deity of Christ. In favour of this translation it can be said that nowhere else in the NT is God the Father said to appear, nor is the adjective great used of Him. The most convincing argument, however, is the presence of only one definite article which has the effect of binding together the two titles” (A Bible Commentary for Today, Edited by G. C. D. Howley, Page 1574, Comments by Alan G. Nute, 1979)
“This verse is an eloquent expression of Paul’s belief in the divinity of Christ. Sometimes the translation is found: “of the great God [i. e., the Father] and our Saviour Jesus Christ. The following considerations militate against this translation: (1) In the Greek the expression “great God” and “our Saviour Jesus Christ” are governed by a single definite article; (2) the verse refers to the parousia, and everywhere else the glorious manifestation of the parousia pertains to Christ (1 Tm 6:14-15; 2 Tm 4:1; 1 Cor 1:7; 2 Thess 1:7; etc.); (3) the rest of the sentence (v.14) speaks only of Christ and ascribes to him a divine prerogative, the possession of a chosen people.” (The Jerome Biblical Commentary, R. E. Brown, J. A. Fitzmyer, R. E. Murphy, pages 360-361, Commentary on Titus, 1970)
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13
This is a specific reference to the second coming of Jesus. It is referring to Christ as “Saviour” and “the great God”. Some translations place a different emphasis on this verse.
“while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 NIV
“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13 NASB
“in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 Weymouth translation
“abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist;” Titus 2:13 Wycliffe Bible (1395)
In these translations, the emphasis is on the appearing of “glory”. This though does not change the fact that Christ is referred to here as our “Saviour” and “the great God”. In the Interpreter’s Bible it says (after saying that some translate this verse as meaning the Father and the Son) “It is preferable, however, to suppose with most commentators, ancient as well as modern, that both epithets refer to Jesus, even though nowhere else in the N.T. is Jesus spoken of as our great God. This is the natural construction in Greek of two nouns following one article (“the”)”. (The Interpreters Bible, Volume 11, pages 539-540, Comments on Titus 2:13)
Another three commentaries say the same. Note they all say that the parousia (the second coming) never includes the Father – only Christ.
In these last words not only does the grammar indicate that the inspired writer identified the Great God and the Saviour; not only is there a continuous chain of authorities, reaching from the apostolic age to our own, to this effect; but, further, the fact that “appearing” is a term peculiarly applied to the Son, and never to the Father, and that the immediate context especially refers to Christ, places it almost beyond doubt that our Blessed Lord is here said to be the great God;
and that in the words of Ellicott, “this text is a direct, definite, and even studied declaration of the Divinity of the Eternal Son.” (The Rev. Edward Henry Bickersteth, M. A., A practical and Explanatory Commentary on the New Testament)
“The text, declaring the true hope of the believer to be the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, bears attractive testimony to the deity of Christ. In favour of this translation it can be said that nowhere else in the NT is God the Father said to appear, nor is the adjective great used of Him. The most convincing argument, however, is the presence of only one definite article which has the effect of binding together the two titles” (A Bible Commentary for Today, Edited by G. C. D. Howley, Page 1574, Comments by Alan G. Nute, 1979)
“This verse is an eloquent expression of Paul’s belief in the divinity of Christ. Sometimes the translation is found: “of the great God [i. e., the Father] and our Saviour Jesus Christ. The following considerations militate against this translation: (1) In the Greek the expression “great God” and “our Saviour Jesus Christ” are governed by a single definite article; (2) the verse refers to the parousia, and everywhere else the glorious manifestation of the parousia pertains to Christ (1 Tm 6:14-15; 2 Tm 4:1; 1 Cor 1:7; 2 Thess 1:7; etc.); (3) the rest of the sentence (v.14) speaks only of Christ and ascribes to him a divine prerogative, the possession of a chosen people.” (The Jerome Biblical Commentary, R. E. Brown, J. A. Fitzmyer, R. E. Murphy, pages 360-361, Commentary on Titus, 1970)
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Because everything stated in Hebrews means nothing if he already had those things beforehand!
- Angels – Hebrews 1:4
"Having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs." - Moses – Hebrews 3:3-6
"For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses... For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God." - The High Priests – Hebrews 4:14-15
"Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." - The Old Covenant – Hebrews 7:22; 8:6
"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant." "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better." - The Sacrifices of the Old Covenant – Hebrews 9:11-14
"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent... he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." - The Law – Hebrews 10:1-10
"For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near." - The Old Sacrificial System – Hebrews 10:11-14
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God." - The Tabernacle – Hebrews 9:11
"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, he entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation." - The Blood of Animals – Hebrews 9:12
"He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." - The Old Prophets – Hebrews 1:1-2
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." - The Old Priesthood (Levitical Priesthood) – Hebrews 7:11-28
"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?"
I just did by using most of Hebrews
God (Yahweh) will never contract His Glory - you know this to be true but you fail to acknowlegde it. Moses understood this, as did Jesus himself - the Apostle did also.
He did not live prior to his birth!
Correct, he was always the Son of God (declared) but while in the flesh Jesus knew he had to overcome it before he could ascend as the Son of God with Power.
You should conform your understanding to Romans 1 as I have
1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:3–4.
See the progression?
I know you do but how often do you ever reply with honest acknowledgement?
Christ was the creation He had in mind before the foundation of this physical heavens and earth. Which is why it can be said:
Revelation 13:8 (KJV):
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
The Lamb was not literally slain at that point, but God, in having/wanting a Son, understood the immense cost of granting creation free will. Knowing that sin would enter the world, He began His creative work with this plan already in mind.
Acts 2:23 "Him (Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
If you held a better understanding of His Foreknowledge you would see the Grand Design of a Creation centred on A Beloved Son.
F2F
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Correct, best to accept the majority view of the Apostles!
2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. Tt 2:11.
A salvation in Christ Whom He raised from the dead!
Christ will represent Him as he did in the Flesh he will do in the Spirit!
Only created beings can contract their glory, to appear as men. Jesus can do this because he is not Yahweh God. Angels and Saints will be able to do the same as they are created beings.
Only here in this verse do we see God (Almighty) dwelling with man.
1 Corinthians 15:28 (ESV):
"When all things are subjected to him (God), then the Son himself will also be subjected to him (God) who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all."
Only when flesh is completely gone from the Earth can God truly dwell in us!
"And it shall come to pass, while My glory passeth by"
Through His angel, Yahweh proposed that there should be a full manifestation of glory as was seen in the Lord of glory at his first advent (John 1:14).
The example of Moses (Exod 33:22) combined with Pauls testimony in (1 Tim 6:16)
--------------------"That I will put you (Moses) in a clift of the rock"-----------------------------------------
The cleft in which Moses was sheltered symbolized the divine presence in its sacrificial form. This was ultimately revealed in Christ, whose person, character, and salvation alone manifest the glory of Yahweh (see John 17:5-6, 26). It is likely this glory that Moses longed to see and, in type, experienced, for he saw the invisible (Hebrews 11:27). All who look upon the Lord Jesus with the right understanding witness the glory of Yahweh and find refuge in the cleft rock (see Song 2:14).
When God said, "And will cover thee with My hand while I pass by,"
He protected Moses from the full effect of His glory, because sinful flesh cannot behold it and survive. The pure glory of Yahweh accentuates the reality of sin, revealing personal shortcomings that all, except Christ, are guilty of. Therefore, all need such a covering (Deuteronomy 33:29; Psalm 91:1-4). In Christ, who is symbolized by the cleft rock, it becomes possible to view the glory of Yahweh, though it remains partially hidden from our current perspective.
"And I will take away Mine hand, and thou shalt see My back parts"
This is literally expressed as "My back". Moses was permitted to see only as much of the divine glory as he was able to bear: the fulness is manifested in Christ (2 Cor. 4:6-7), to be revealed in the earth in due time (Eze. 43:1-2).
"But My face shall not be seen" — 20; John 1:18; I Tim. 6:16; John 4:12.
@Wrangler @APAK because they fail to see the One True Almighty God they do not know this in Exodus
33:20 But he added, “You cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.”
This has not changed!
Why is it that Brakelite with all his musings cannot see what is plainly written in front of him?
The Lord Jesus Christ is not this GOD! This God is beyond us though he condescended through a Son He is still an unchanging God Who dwells in light unapproachable who no man can see (and live)
F2F
Ritajanice
Born-Again
The Father is also Living in us the Born Again....doing his work through us..via His Holy Spirit..
Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him (John 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17).
Here is another Interesting commentary.
Hundreds of years before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of God’s Son: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). When the angel spoke to Joseph and announced the impending birth of Jesus, he alluded to Isaiah’s prophecy: "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God with us’)" (Matthew 1:23). This did not mean they were to name the baby Immanuel; it meant that "God with us" was the baby’s identity. Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.
Jesus Himself understood the speculation about His identity. He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" (Matthew 16:13; Mark 8:27). The answers varied, as they do today. Then Jesus asked a more pressing question: "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15). Peter gave the right answer: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16). Jesus affirmed the truth of Peter’s answer and promised that, upon that truth, He would build His church (Matthew 16:18).
The true nature and identity of Jesus Christ has eternal significance. Every person must answer the question Jesus asked His disciples: "Who do you say that I am?"
He gave us the correct answer in many ways. In John 14:9-10, Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
The Bible is clear about the divine nature of the Lord Jesus Christ (see John 1:1-14). Philippians 2:6-7 says that, although Jesus was "in very nature God, He did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
Jesus is fully God and fully man, and the fact of His incarnation is of utmost importance. He lived a human life but did not possess a sin nature as we do. He was tempted but never sinned (Hebrews 2:14-18; 4:15). Sin entered the world through Adam, and Adam’s sinful nature has been transferred to every baby born into the world (Romans 5:12)—except for Jesus. Because Jesus did not have a human father, He did not inherit a sin nature. He possessed the divine nature from His Heavenly Father.
Jesus had to meet all the requirements of a holy God before He could be an acceptable sacrifice for our sin (John 8:29; Hebrews 9:14). He had to fulfill over three hundred prophecies about the Messiah that God, through the prophets, had foretold (Matthew 4:13-14; Luke 22:37; Isaiah 53; Micah 5:2).
Since the fall of man (Genesis 3:21-23), the only way to be made right with God has been the blood of an innocent sacrifice (Leviticus 9:2; Numbers 28:19; Deuteronomy 15:21; Hebrews 9:22). Jesus was the final, perfect sacrifice that satisfied forever God’s wrath against sin (Hebrews 10:14). His divine nature made Him fit for the work of Redeemer; His human body allowed Him to shed the blood necessary to redeem. No human being with a sin nature could pay such a debt. No one else could meet the requirements to become the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (Matthew 26:28; 1 John 2:2). If Jesus were merely a good man as some claim, then He had a sin nature and was not perfect. In that case, His death and resurrection would have no power to save anyone.
Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him (John 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17).
Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him (John 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17).
Here is another Interesting commentary.
Is Jesus God in the flesh?
Since Jesus’ conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:26-38), the real identity of Jesus Christ has always been questioned by skeptics. It began with Mary’s fiancé, Joseph, who was afraid to marry her when she revealed that she was pregnant (Matthew 1:18-24). He took her as his wife only after the angel confirmed to him that the child she carried was the Son of God.Hundreds of years before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of God’s Son: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). When the angel spoke to Joseph and announced the impending birth of Jesus, he alluded to Isaiah’s prophecy: "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God with us’)" (Matthew 1:23). This did not mean they were to name the baby Immanuel; it meant that "God with us" was the baby’s identity. Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.
Jesus Himself understood the speculation about His identity. He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" (Matthew 16:13; Mark 8:27). The answers varied, as they do today. Then Jesus asked a more pressing question: "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15). Peter gave the right answer: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16). Jesus affirmed the truth of Peter’s answer and promised that, upon that truth, He would build His church (Matthew 16:18).
The true nature and identity of Jesus Christ has eternal significance. Every person must answer the question Jesus asked His disciples: "Who do you say that I am?"
He gave us the correct answer in many ways. In John 14:9-10, Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."
The Bible is clear about the divine nature of the Lord Jesus Christ (see John 1:1-14). Philippians 2:6-7 says that, although Jesus was "in very nature God, He did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
Jesus is fully God and fully man, and the fact of His incarnation is of utmost importance. He lived a human life but did not possess a sin nature as we do. He was tempted but never sinned (Hebrews 2:14-18; 4:15). Sin entered the world through Adam, and Adam’s sinful nature has been transferred to every baby born into the world (Romans 5:12)—except for Jesus. Because Jesus did not have a human father, He did not inherit a sin nature. He possessed the divine nature from His Heavenly Father.
Jesus had to meet all the requirements of a holy God before He could be an acceptable sacrifice for our sin (John 8:29; Hebrews 9:14). He had to fulfill over three hundred prophecies about the Messiah that God, through the prophets, had foretold (Matthew 4:13-14; Luke 22:37; Isaiah 53; Micah 5:2).
Since the fall of man (Genesis 3:21-23), the only way to be made right with God has been the blood of an innocent sacrifice (Leviticus 9:2; Numbers 28:19; Deuteronomy 15:21; Hebrews 9:22). Jesus was the final, perfect sacrifice that satisfied forever God’s wrath against sin (Hebrews 10:14). His divine nature made Him fit for the work of Redeemer; His human body allowed Him to shed the blood necessary to redeem. No human being with a sin nature could pay such a debt. No one else could meet the requirements to become the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (Matthew 26:28; 1 John 2:2). If Jesus were merely a good man as some claim, then He had a sin nature and was not perfect. In that case, His death and resurrection would have no power to save anyone.
Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him (John 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17).
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
