Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[MonoBiblical]

An American Translation by Goodspeed (1935) reads:
“the Word was divine”;

Moffatt, “the Logos was divine”
(James Moffatt was a trinitarian)

New Testament in an Improved Version, by Archbishop Newcombe, “the word was a god.”
(Newcombe was a trinitarian)

In his German translation Ludwig Thinme expresses it in this way: “God of a sort the Word was.”

"and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

Ah, crummy Greek scholarship. I think it should be translated, "; and the God it was". More so, qualitative means we think it should be like an English mass noun or multicount singular noun.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, Jesus came through Mary but was not from Mary...he carried none of the sinful DNA she inherited from Adam. The life of God’s spirit son was transferred from heaven and implanted as an ebryo in Mary’s womb.

Just came back to this, so God just used her womb to grow Jesus in...that makes sense, he carried none of her sinful nature/ DNA.

His growth came from that of God, ...if he had, had a sinful nature then he could not have atoned for our sins, ?

So he was God’s perfection growing in Mary’s womb, without sin?

The first Adam sinned, the second Adam was sinless, and was the atonement for our sins,.....without Jesus being perfect in every way, there would be no way back to the Father, Spiritual way back to the Father, our spirit is what is reunited back to God...

Hence we must be Born Of The Spirit, therefore Jesus had to be that perfect Spirit Lamb, that came from God, ....God is Pure,Holy, And without sin, that’s why only his Son who came from the mouth/ seed of God, could be the atonement for our sin..

Because Jesus was from God, ( not saying he was God) he had to be Pure, Holy and without sin...Jesus was all 3 of those...

These are my thoughts at the moment on the subject matter at hand.

 

[face2face]

Just came back to this, so God just used her womb to grow Jesus in...that makes sense, he carried none of her sinful nature/ DNA.

The self deception is rife here!

 

[Ritajanice]

It was the entire point of his birth to a woman! She had to be of the sinful line of Adam else how can he be the second Adam

F2F

The second Adam had to be Pure, Holy and without sin?

Otherwise how could he be the atonement for our sin?

Jesus was Pure ,Holy and without sin?

He was all 3 because he was the “ Spirit “ Son Of God?

Just like we are spirit children of God..The Born Again @face2face ...how else can we be reunited back to God, without the perfect Lamb of God , Jesus , who was sent in Gods Name was he not?

My spirit was reunited back to God 33 yrs ago...?...that’s why we must be Born Of The Spirit?

 

[Ritajanice]

The self deception is rife here!

Not quite understanding, can you be more specific please?

Explain my self deception please...that’s what discussion is all about @face2face ...it’s a “ Two” way process, where both parties are seeking out Gods truth.

Not a one way discussion, where it’s one way or the highway...that will get us nowhere in spiritual growth, been there done that...

One way mindset is not open I’m afraid, it’s 100% closed ..we can’t grow if we can’t open our hearts/ spirit and mind to the teachings of the Holy Spirit....after all, he is the one with all the Spirit knowledge...you must know that there is no Spirit knowledge in us...?

The Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher/ helper, bringing us to understanding the scriptures, I have to wait on him to bring me to Gods truth.....we are forever seeking out Gods truth...as his Born Again children, we never stop growing and maturing in the Spirit until the day we die .

That’s why I’m forever asking questions...how else can we learn from God, via His Living Holy Spirit, who indwells our spirit?

God sent Jesus to be a perfect sacrifice for your sins. Scripture says, “But our High Priest (Jesus) offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand.” Hebrews 10:12NLT.

And his sacrifice did not symbolize just one man dying for his sin; Jesus, the perfect Son of God, offered himself as a sacrifice for all human sin. And because he committed no sin, Jesus' sacrifice covered all the sins of all people, including you and me.

 

[pepper]

There is one God.

thje father is God
the Son is God
the HS is God.

so what is God? The issue is define God or the Godhead.

Thats why in reality, I do not think we will fully understand it until we see God.

We just need to take Gods word as what it says.and not worry about why it seems to contradict itself. just Have faith God knows what he is talking baout. and there are many thing we can not comprehend in this lifetime.

Taking God's word for it would be wise.

Monothheism.

"To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him." Deuteronomy 4:35

​

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." Deuteronomy 6:4

Mark 12:29
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Hosea 13:4
But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.

"“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11

" Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

 

[Brakelite]

@Brakelite you would do well to read all the verses I provided and watch Johann explain away everyone of them. In the end he requested I show him a verse which showed him Jesus required redeeming.

I did!

Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Heb 9:12

A number of disturbing facts there for you to process!

Through & By are significant!

These are not the kinds of verses that someone who believes in the preexistence of Christ would want to read!

(Note: the Saints will be raised by to eternal redeption by the same eternal covenant).

Only mortals are saved this way!

F2F

First, let's include context...
“ Now the God of peace that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus that great shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the everlasting covenant make you perfect in every good work to do his will working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight through Jesus Christ to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. ”
Hebrews 13:20-21 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
Read the above again without the verse numbers and without the arbitrary punctuation, neither of which was in the original. It doesn't explicitly say, although you could take it that way of you were so inclined, that Jesus was raised from the dead by the everlasting covenant. What it does say, and is true, is that by the everlasting covenant we are sanctified.
Let me break it all down...
"Now the God of peace that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus that great shepherd of the sheep...this is explicitly stating that which we all know to be true, that God raised Jesus from the dead.
this passage is in the form of a prayer or benediction. ..through the blood of the everlasting covenant make you perfect in every good work to do his will working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight through Jesus Christ to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Paul's benediction in a summary is effectually saying, "May the same God who raised Jesus from the dead, through the blood of the covenant make you prefect".


Nowhere there does it say that Jesus needed, or that Jesus was redeemed by that blood.

As for the next verse, more context...
“12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ”
Hebrews 9:12-14 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

I know that the 'for us' is supplied, but that's the truth. Redemption was established for sinners. Us. And it was accomplished through the everlasting covenant established in the garden of Eden as a promise. And the Son of God was sent to this earth as a child of man in order to die.

 

[face2face]

The second Adam had to be Pure, Holy and without sin?

Keep looking and searching the Scripture...you will find him if you are diligent!
F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

Keep looking and searching the Scripture...you will find him if you are diligent!

We see God with our hearts, not our eyes. God is Spirit (John 4:24). When Philip asked Jesus to show the Father to his disciples, Jesus said: “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?” (John 14:9).

F2F..Keep looking and searching the Scripture

That is not an answer to my question I’m afraid...?

I asked you to explain why I am self deceived...?

I also don’t need to search the scriptures to know that my spirit is Born Again, searching scripture doesn’t give birth to my spirit @face2face that can only come by supernatural divine heart revelation..just as Gods word says.

Flesh gives birth to flesh = human birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit = supernatural Spirit Birth= by divine heart revelation....A mighty Living Spirit Birth.

The Holy Spirit also brings us to understand the scriptures once we are Born Again in his timing.

You/ me know nothing of scripture..it’s the Holy Spirit who indwells our spirit, who has the answers to our questions?...only he can bring us to understanding Gods word in our spirit?

There is no knowledge of Gods word in us...all knowledge comes from the power within us, The Living Holy Spirit @face2face ?

That’s why our spirit must be Born Again to understand the word, as it was written under the influence of the Spirit by men...therefore a Spirit filled book...we communicate with God via His Living Holy Spirit, as we are Born Of The Spirit, we are Spirit Children.the Bible confirms this.

 

[Ritajanice]

Nowhere there does it say that Jesus needed, or that Jesus was redeemed by that blood.

I thought Jesus was our redeemer?

Why would Jesus need to be redeemed, when he was the perfect Son Of God...?

Sorry about all the firing of questions..I’m waiting on the Holy Spirit to give me an answer...

I’m getting, we are the ones who need to be redeemed.....?

Jesus blood was pure , Holy and without blemish/ sin.what he shed, there is no other way that we can be made right before God, without the shedding of Jesus blood.
We need Jesus blood, as in ,his death and resurrection,we also need to be Born Of The Spirit...
8. Redemption through His blood (Ephesians 1:7-8a) In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us.

 

[Brakelite]

The Father is God’s helper. The Father alone is God.

My original statement you quoted, said:
But certainly the Father was God's great helper in overcoming the many temptations and trials that God Son as a human had to face.
That was a misprint by my predictive key board. Meant to say...
But certainly the Father was HIS (meaning Jesus) great helper in overcoming the many temptations and trials that God's Son as a human had to face.

Sorry, but I understand your response.

 

[face2face]

We see God with our hearts, not our eyes. God is Spirit (John 4:24). When Philip asked Jesus to show the Father to his disciples, Jesus said: “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?” (John 14:9).

That is not an answer to my question I’m afraid...?

I asked you to explain why I am self deceived...?

I also don’t need to search the scriptures to know that my spirit is Born Again, searching scripture doesn’t give birth to my spirit @face2face that can only come by supernatural divine heart revelation..just as Gods word says.

Flesh gives birth to flesh = human birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit = supernatural Spirit Birth= by divine heart revelation....A mighty Living Spirit Birth.

The Holy Spirit also brings us to understand the scriptures once we are Born Again in his timing.

You/ me know nothing of scripture..it’s the Holy Spirit who indwells our spirit, who has the answers to our questions?...only he can bring us to understanding Gods word in our spirit?

There is no knowledge of Gods word in us...all knowledge comes from the power within us, The Living Holy Spirit @face2face ?

That’s why our spirit must be Born Again to understand the word, as it was written under the influence of the Spirit by men...therefore a Spirit filled book...we communicate with God via His Living Holy Spirit, as we are Born Of The Spirit, we are Spirit Children.the Bible confirms this.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Romans 15:4

As I said, search, pray and you will find he who has the words of eternal life!

F2F

 

[face2face]

First, let's include context...
“ Now the God of peace that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus that great shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the everlasting covenant make you perfect in every good work to do his will working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight through Jesus Christ to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. ”
Hebrews 13:20-21 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
Read the above again without the verse numbers and without the arbitrary punctuation, neither of which was in the original. It doesn't explicitly say, although you could take it that way of you were so inclined, that Jesus was raised from the dead by the everlasting covenant.

Consider the implications if he wasn't?

What it does say, and is true, is that by the everlasting covenant we are sanctified.
Let me break it all down...
"Now the God of peace that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus that great shepherd of the sheep...this is explicitly stating that which we all know to be true, that God raised Jesus from the dead.
this passage is in the form of a prayer or benediction. ..through the blood of the everlasting covenant make you perfect in every good work to do his will working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight through Jesus Christ to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Paul's benediction in a summary is effectually saying, "May the same God who raised Jesus from the dead, through the blood of the covenant make you prefect".


Nowhere there does it say that Jesus needed, or that Jesus was redeemed by that blood.


As for the next verse, more context...
“12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

"For us" was added later for the same reasons you seem to be approaching the text.

"Having obtained in himself eternal redemption."

In Phil. 2:8 we have the idea more literally expressed --

"He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him."

It's in his death and the giving of his life as an offering for sin that he taste death once! That he died to sin once that God was able to use the everlasting covenant to grant him everlasting life.

Brakelite, you can try to distance Christ from his own sacrifice in vain! He ascended heaven for the first time with his blood offering to his Father and it was accepted because that life declare the righteouness of God and the right treatment of sin's flesh!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite, traditional views on this subject do not allow for the notion that Christ gained any benefit from his own death, or was exalted due to his act of submission.

I pray one day we meet and you are on the right side of this truth!

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

As I said, search, pray and you will find he who has the words of eternal life!

This is your teaching, which doesn’t resonate with my spirit @face2face

My teaching can only come from God’s Living testimony/ witness, who indwells my spirit.The Living Holy Spirit who speaks to my heart/ spirit.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Romans 15:4
F2F

We have eternal life when our spirit has become Born Again, and not before, being Born Of the Spirit is a supernatural Living birth that comes by divine heart revelation, just as Gods word says...

We have been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever..that seed that we are Born Again Of is a Living seed. His Name is the Holy Spirit..no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Reading the Bible does not birth our spirit..

John 3:3-8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Heirs with Christ

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption to sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[ProDeo]

Out of curiosity, how have you found the discussion?

Disappointing, with the exception of @Aunty Jane

It’s been intense at times, but I believe the Unitarians are currently well ahead in the conversation.

It's about truth finding, not about winning, or in competition.

 

[Ritajanice]

It's about truth finding, not about winning, or in competition.

Amen...that is why we must stay open ( our hearts/ minds ) to the teachings from the Holy Spirit...

 

[face2face]

Disappointing, with the exception of @Aunty Jane

It's about truth finding, not about winning, or in competition.

Time is short, and we don't have much time left. Our mission is to win the deceived for Christ—snatching them from the fire before it's too late.

"Save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh." Jude 1:23

"Therefore, as it is written: 'Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.'" 1 Corinthians 1:31

That's good Aunty Jane has been helpful!

We have left in here considerable resources for any and all to come to a true knowledge of the Master.

I'm very grateful the forum has permitted us to speak of these things.

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

Time is short, and we don't have much time left. Our mission is to win the deceived for Christ—snatching them from the fire before it's too late.

We can’t win anyone to Christ, that is the role of the Holy Spirit, through us if it’s the will of God.

There is NO power in you/ me to win anyone to Christ...

Please explain to me @face2face how you or me would know how to bring a persons spirit Alive in Christ, how would we know how to regenerate?

We sow seeds, we do not perform the Living spirit birth? That is a supernatural act of God, which comes by divine heart revelation...

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

 

[face2face]

We can’t win anyone to Christ, that is the role of the Holy Spirit, through us if it’s the will of God.

There is NO power in you/ me to win anyone to Christ...

You have a great deal of ignorance Rita, said sincerely.

5:19 My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, 5:20 he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from his wandering path will save that person’s soul (life) from death and will cover a multitude of sins Jas 5:19–20.

If you understood how God and Jesus work through us (God manifestation), you wouldn't lack confidence so much, and perhaps you'd be more willing to embrace the truth when it's right in front of you!

F2F