Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

By which covenant did God raise Jesus, and how was that covenant ratified? Why Jesus' blood? What did the blood achieve? What did that offering do for Christ? How did he benefit?

Remember, I've asked you to engage with the Word thoughtfully and ask insightful questions, rather than just copying and pasting.

No, it’s clear you are attempting to coerce me into aligning with your dangerous doctrines, alongside APAK and Wrangler. This feels like a baited trap, and I find no spiritual edification in engaging further.

Farewell.

J.

 

[Pierac]

I stopped reading here.

Thanks for the "enlightening" post. I pray daily to my Lord Jesus Christ and my Abba.

J.

That is why you fail.... You stopped reading.....

I stopped reading here.

Thanks for the "enlightening" post. I pray daily to my Lord Jesus Christ and my Abba.

J.

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.


So start reading!!! little Girl!

 

[face2face]

how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

How did he do this?

 

[face2face]

No, it’s clear you are attempting to coerce me into aligning with your dangerous doctrines, alongside APAK and Wrangler. This feels like a baited trap, and I find no spiritual edification in engaging further.

Farewell.

J.

Do you see, Johann? Each of those questions has a Biblical answer that will guide you to the truth.

You just won't go there will you!

F2F

 

[MatthewG]

How did he do that?

 

[Magdala]

My claim is that we can't go to Matthew 28:19 to prove that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God.

I never said that you didn't claim that.

the Great Commission is actually a directive to make disciples. Baptism serves as the initiation into the process of teaching. Therefore, when the Apostles make disciples, they must emphasize to the new believers that they are not disciples of the Apostles themselves but rather disciples of Jesus.

And, you stated that the reason why Jesus instructed His apostles to "baptize in the name (authority) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" is because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each Other in what They teach. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each Other in what They teach, that's correct, but the teachings of John, incomplete or not, didn't contradict the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit either, yet Jesus didn't instruct the apostles to baptize in his name as well. Therefore, Jesus didn't say "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" for the reason that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each Other.

I don't understand your question because you seem to be confusing "what" a person is with "who" they are. Are you asking what they are or who they are?

I wasn't asking because I don't already know the answer. I'm asking to know Who or what you think the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is? Or, you can answer this question: do you think that none of the three are God? Or, you can answer both.

 

[Johann]

So start reading!!! little Girl!

You need to start eulogizing Messiah-

προσκυνέω (proskynéō)
This is the primary Greek verb used to denote worship or reverence. It appears repeatedly in contexts where Jesus is honored or worshiped as divine.

Matthew 2:11: "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ)."

Matthew 8:2: "And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him (προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ), saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."

Matthew 14:33: "Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ), saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9: "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ)."

Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him, they worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ): but some doubted."

Luke 24:52: "And they worshiped him (προσκυνήσαντες αὐτόν), and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

John 9:38: "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him (προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ)."

Revelation 5:14: "And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him that liveth for ever and ever."

2. δόξα (doxa) – Glory or honor
While not strictly "worship," this word is often used in contexts where Jesus is glorified, reflecting divine reverence.

John 17:5: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me (δόξασόν με) with thine own self with the glory (τῇ δόξῃ) which I had with thee before the world was."

Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (προσκυνήσατωσαν αὐτῷ)."

3. ὁμολογέω (homologéō) – Confess or acknowledge
Used to express the act of confessing or acknowledging Jesus’ divine authority.

Philippians 2:10-11: "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (κάμψῃ), of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess (ἐξομολογήσηται) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

4. εὐλογέω (eulogéō) – Bless or praise
Though more commonly used of God the Father, Jesus also receives eulogéō in contexts implying divine reverence.

Luke 24:51-53: "And they worshiped him (προσκυνήσαντες αὐτόν), and returned to Jerusalem with great And were continually in the temple, praising (εὐλογοῦντες) and blessing God."

5. ἄξιος (axios) – Worthy
This word appears in contexts where Jesus is declared worthy of worship.

Revelation 5:12: "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy (ἄξιος) is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing."

These terms and their respective contexts emphasize the worship, reverence, and divine acknowledgment Jesus receives throughout the New Testament.

Your goading aside, believe what stands written.

J.

 

[face2face]

You need to start eulogizing Messiah-

You can't exalt him any higher than Yahweh His God and Father already has.

The issue we have identified is from what was he exalted?

Hence my questions!

F2F

 

[face2face]

That’s another point Johann has touched on. He believes that Jesus, as God, is the highest form of praise, but how mistaken is he?

Jesus was made lower than the angels, yet He was given a name superior to theirs (Heb. 1:4).

Is "far better" referring to God?

Or does "far better" refer to the exalted position of the Son of God at the right hand of the Father on high?

We know the answer, and we’ve been very patient, hoping Johann and Pro will come to agreement.

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

This is the primary Greek verb used to denote worship or reverence. It appears repeatedly in contexts where Jesus is honored or worshiped as divine.

I believe it means to bend the back pros with. Reverence yes, but not proof of deity.

 

[APAK]

That’s another point Johann has touched on. He believes that Jesus, as God, is the highest form of praise, but how mistaken is he?

Jesus was made lower than the angels, yet He was given a name superior to theirs (Heb. 1:4).

Is "far better" referring to God?

Or does "far better" refer to the exalted position of the Son of God at the right hand of the Father on high?

We know the answer, and we’ve been very patient, hoping Johann and Pro will come to agreement.

F2F

He is somewhat delusional. Scripture rejects his religious theory concerning praise for Jesus as God himself. They make it all up and call it good to go...shame

 

[Wrangler]

1 Peter 2:6) acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

2 Beings. One by. The other to.

 

[face2face]

Michael Servetus (1511–1553) was a Spanish physician, theologian, and humanist known for his unorthodox religious views, particularly his rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity. Servetus argued that the Trinity was not a biblical concept and that it was a misunderstanding of Christian teachings. He was one of the early proponents of anti-Trinitarianism.

His views led to controversy, and he was eventually arrested and tried for heresy in Geneva under the influence of John Calvin, a leading figure in the Protestant Reformation. Servetus was convicted of heresy and blasphemy, and in 1553, he was burned at the stake.

Servetus' execution remains a topic of debate and criticism in church history, particularly regarding the balance between religious freedom and orthodoxy during the Reformation. His ideas, while initially controversial, would later contribute to the development of Unitarianism and other anti-Trinitarian movements.

I've noticed the accusation of blasphemy being used in this forum, and it makes me wonder—if we lived in different times, many here might very well be persecuted/executed as heretics.

It goes to show how far a believer would go to uphold their dogma.

F2F

 

[Pierac]

Michael Servetus (1511–1553) was a Spanish physician, theologian, and humanist known for his unorthodox religious views, particularly his rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity. Servetus argued that the Trinity was not a biblical concept and that it was a misunderstanding of Christian teachings. He was one of the early proponents of anti-Trinitarianism.

His views led to controversy, and he was eventually arrested and tried for heresy in Geneva under the influence of John Calvin, a leading figure in the Protestant Reformation. Servetus was convicted of heresy and blasphemy, and in 1553, he was burned at the stake.

Servetus' execution remains a topic of debate and criticism in church history, particularly regarding the balance between religious freedom and orthodoxy during the Reformation. His ideas, while initially controversial, would later contribute to the development of Unitarianism and other anti-Trinitarian movements.

I've noticed the accusation of blasphemy being used in this forum, and it makes me wonder—if we lived in different times, many here might very well be persecuted/executed as heretics.

It goes to show how far a believer would go to uphold their dogma.

F2F

The Docterine of the Trinity is of the Devil!!!

It is to take the Greatest Commandment... and twist it in to... Satan's tradition of men!

Mar 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;


Trinitarians Teach 3 Lords in one...

Yea.... The Docterine of the Trinity has had Christians... Killing and Murdering ... other Christians!!!

So is that the teaching of GOD or the Devil???

 

[TheHC]

Please read the WHOLE Bible before you come to conclusions on just a few scriptures.

Yes the entire context….why did you leave out vs18, “No one has ever seen God”?

I think I know why: because the rendering you accept, “the Word was God”, is contradictory of the facts…. Thousands saw Jesus, yet the Bible states “no one has ever seen God”!

Is there another way to render John 1:1, that fits the rules of Greek grammar?
Yes!

The article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” by Philip B. Harner, says that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant.

Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”

Highly acclaimed scholar John L. McKenzie (a trinitarian) states in his Dictionary of the Bible: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317.

This is why some translations render John 1:1 these ways…

An American Translation by Goodspeed (1935) reads:
“the Word was divine”;

Moffatt, “the Logos was divine”
(James Moffatt was a trinitarian)

New Testament in an Improved Version, by Archbishop Newcombe, “the word was a god.”
(Newcombe was a trinitarian)

In his German translation Ludwig Thinme expresses it in this way: “God of a sort the Word was.”

"and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

[Notice that even some trinitarian translators acknowledge that saying “the Word was God” is not accurately conveying the thought.]

Referring to the Word (who became Jesus Christ) as “a god” is consistent with the use of that term in the rest of the Scriptures. For example, at Psalm 82:1-6, human judges in Israel were referred to as “gods” (Hebrew, ’elo·himʹ; Greek, the·oiʹ, at John 10:34) because they were representatives of Yahweh / God and were to speak his law.


If a verse can be rendered in more than one way grammatically, then what is the correct rendering? One that is in agreement with the rest of the Bible. If a person ignores other portions of the Bible and builds his belief around a favorite rendering of a particular verse, then what he believes really reflects, not the Word of God, but his own ideas and perhaps those of other imperfect humans.

 

[face2face]

The Docterine of the Trinity is of the Devil!!!

It is to take the Greatest Commandment... and twist it in to... Satan's tradition of men!

Mar 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;


Trinitarians Teach 3 Lords in one...

Yea.... The Docterine of the Trinity has had Christians... Killing and Murdering ... other Christians!!!

So is that the teaching of GOD or the Devil???

It is interesting, isn't it, Pierac, that Unitarians have not been known for engaging in widespread violence against Trinitarians. While this in itself does not serve as proof against the doctrine of the Trinity, those who adhere to such views must also consider the actions of those who held similar beliefs in the past. Romans, Judaizers, and both Catholics and Protestants have a long history marked by violence and bloodshed in the name of faith.

By the way, I don't subscribe to the fallen angels theology and attribute this false doctrine and behavior directly to those responsible, where their actions are symbolically laid at their feet (Acts 7:58).

F2F

 

[Pierac]

You need to start eulogizing Messiah-

προσκυνέω (proskynéō)
This is the primary Greek verb used to denote worship or reverence. It appears repeatedly in contexts where Jesus is honored or worshiped as divine.

Matthew 8:2: "And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him (προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ), saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."

Matthew 14:33: "Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ), saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Luke 24:52: "And they worshiped him (προσκυνήσαντες αὐτόν), and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

John 9:38: "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him (προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ)."

Revelation 5:14: "And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him that liveth for ever and ever."

2. δόξα (doxa) – Glory or honor
While not strictly "worship," this word is often used in contexts where Jesus is glorified, reflecting divine reverence.

John 17:5: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me (δόξασόν με) with thine own self with the glory (τῇ δόξῃ) which I had with thee before the world was."

Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (προσκυνήσατωσαν αὐτῷ)."

3. ὁμολογέω (homologéō) – Confess or acknowledge
Used to express the act of confessing or acknowledging Jesus’ divine authority.

Philippians 2:10-11: "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (κάμψῃ), of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess (ἐξομολογήσηται) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Your goading aside, believe what stands written.

J.

Worship

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, " ( Col 1:3 )

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)

"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)

This list is by no means exhaustive. But it is sufficient to show that we are, with our Lord Jesus, to worship and pray to the Father. This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the New Testament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ. They
evidently were not aware that the Holy Spirit was God (a third person), for wherein all the pages of the Bible to the Saints pray to the Holy Spirit? And where in all the pages of Scripture do the worshipers of God sing to the Holy Spirit as is the general custom within Christendom today?

What about those passages where the Lord Jesus is worship? Or where the Lord Jesus is pray to? Surely this is proof positive that Jesus is God because only God is to be worshiped? (The words of Jesus are often used to substantiate this belief: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" (Matt. 4:10), as though Jesus meant: "I am the Lord your God, worship only me."

But this meaning is totally incongruous and has no parallel in the New Testament record.) Then, of course, there is God the Father's own directive to the Angels concerning Jesus the son of God: "and let all the Angels of God worship him" (Heb. 1:6). The fact that Jesus is worship by Thomas as he falls at his feet and honors him with the confession, "My Lord and my God!" Too many presents the final proof that Jesus is God (John 20:28).

To all of this there is a very simple solution. Once again it comes back to a failure to understand biblical culture; a failure to read the Bible through Hebrew eyes. In the Old Testament in main Hebrew word for worship is shachah. It occurs about 170 times but the surprising thing is that only about half of this number relate to the worship of God as God. This fact is hidden in our English translations. The translators prefer to say "bow down to" or "revere" when shachah refers to homage paid to noble persons, whether Angels or men, but say "worship" when God is the object. This is a false distinction the original texts does not support. Here are just a view examples:

Lot "worshiped" the two strangers who looked like normal travelers as they entered Sodom (Gen. 19:1).

Abraham "worshipped" the Gentile leaders of the land where he lived (Gen. 23:7).

Jacob "worshipped" his older brother Esau (Gen. 33:3).

Joseph's brothers "worshipped" him (Gen. 43:26).

David "worshipped" King Saul (1 Sam. 24:8).

Mephibosheth fell on his face and "worshipped" David (2 Sam. 9:6).

Abigail "worshipped" David the outlaw (1 Sam 25:23, 41).

The whole congregation "worshipped" the King (1 Chron. 9:20).

These are just a few instances of the many that could be cited to show the reluctance of the translators to consistently translate shachah as "worship" when worship of important persons was obviously a common feature of Hebrew culture. In Scripture worship is offered to God and to men. There is no special word and the Old Testament for "worship" reserved exclusively for God.

So then, how do we explain this in light of the clear command that we are to worship God the Father alone as both the first commandment and Jesus himself command? Is this a contradiction after all? No way. The answer is that whenever men "worshiped" other men it was a relative worship. In most of the examples above it is clear that the ones worshiped were God's representatives. Once again we are back to the principle of Jewish agency. The Israelites had no difficulty in offering this proportional or relative worship to the ones who came in Gods Name, with God's message. It is obvious that the first commandment "You must not bow yourself down [shachah] to them nor serve them" is not a prohibition against a relative worship of those worthy of it. If this was the case then obviously all these Old Testament godly men and women sinned greatly. God even promises a coming day when He will make our enemies "to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Such worship of the Saints at God's degree is clearly a relative and proportional worship. It is perfectly legitimate to give honor to whom honor is due. For through him all worship is ultimately directed to God and Father.

There, in that glorious Kingdom, Jesus Christ will continue to be a joyful worshiper of God his Father. Thus, the one God and Father he is alone worshiped absolutely. All other divinely appointed worship is homage to persons who are not God himself. Jesus is among those worthy of such worship for he is worshiped as the one Messiah, God's supreme son and agent.

Jesus knew the prophecy: "Worship the Lord with reverence, and… do homage to the Son" (Ps.2: 11-12). Jesus knew God his Father had decreed "Let all the Angels of God worship him" (Psalms 97:7). Jesus knew that the angelic messengers of Jehovah had in the past received relative worship from God-pleasing men and women. Jesus knew that of the one true God could be addressed as though they were God. And Jesus knew he was the Son and ultimately agent of God, so how much greater his destiny! As the "only begotten Son" whom the father had "sealed" and commissioned he knew that whoever honored him honored the Father also. This was his Father's decree (Psalms 2:11-12; 97:7).

 

[David in NJ]

Yes the entire context….why did you leave out vs18, “No one has ever seen God”?

I think I know why: because the rendering you accept, “the Word was God”, is contradictory of the facts…. Thousands saw Jesus, yet the Bible states “no one has ever seen God”!

Good Evening,

JESUS told the Truth = no one has seen God, the FATHER, except HE who came from the FATHER

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

Elohim FATHER
Elohim WORD/SON
Elohim HOLY SPIRIT

"Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[face2face]

JESUS told the Truth

When didn't he?

no one has seen God, the FATHER, except HE who came from the FATHER

Correct and while Jesus was in the flesh he could not also!

who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 1 Tim 6:16

The irony is this – Jesus was unable to enter the Holy Place, let alone the Holy of Holies during his probation!

You understand this David?

@APAK @Wrangler

I don't believe David does understand - few do, @Johann might?

F2F