Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Phoneman777]

Sorry to hear that you "jumped ship", trying to avoid the literal history of the "Messiah being cut off, but not for Himself".
But still, after many posts, you have not provided the scripture for your use of the words: "cut off", and you call me inconsistent??
So, don't fault me for being inconsistent with anything that I have provided for detail, with scripture and historic documentation, to back up what I have shown.

What can I say further, concerning the KJV scripture of Dan. 9:26, except that you are reading it from a spurious Bible, and/or you have been terribly misled and deceived!

You do have a problem: 1 Cor. 2:5. You have revealed your "stand", which is where we are clearly told not to stand!!

If we fail to remain consistent in our eschatological symbol interpretation by the "holy men" who interpret the symbols for us, we are guilty of "private interpretation".

According to the "holy men" named Ezekiel and Moses and Jesus, a symbolic day is a literal year, according to Numbers 14:34 KJV, Ezekiel 4:6 KJV, and Luke 13:32 KJV.

The 2300 Days are as much symbolic for 2300 years as the 70 Weeks are symbolic for 490 years.

 

[Earburner]

If we fail to remain consistent in our eschatological symbol interpretation by the "holy men" who interpret the symbols for us, we are guilty of "private interpretation".

According to the "holy men" named Ezekiel and Moses and Jesus, a symbolic day is a literal year, according to Numbers 14:34 KJV, Ezekiel 4:6 KJV, and Luke 13:32 KJV.

The 2300 Days are as much symbolic for 2300 years as the 70 Weeks are symbolic for 490 years.

Daniel 8
[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give BOTH the sanctuary and the host [army of Israel] to be trodden under foot?
[14] And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred [2300]  DAYS; THEN [45 days later] shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Days:
Strongs H6153
ערב
‛ereb
eh'-reb
From H6150; dusk
KJV Usage: + day, even (-ing, tide), night.

 

[Phoneman777]

Daniel 8
[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give BOTH the sanctuary and the host [army of Israel] to be trodden under foot?
[14] And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred [2300]  DAYS; THEN [45 days later] shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Days:
Strongs H6153
ערב
‛ereb
eh'-reb
From H6150; dusk
KJV Usage: + day, even (-ing, tide), night.

Not sure what is meant by this, except the "army of Israel" is opinion, while the "angelic host" is more accurate.

 

[One 2 question]

If we fail to remain consistent in our eschatological symbol interpretation by the "holy men" who interpret the symbols for us, we are guilty of "private interpretation".

My simple question is why are these individual 'holy men' you refer to allowed to personally interpret eachother but not other holy individuals down through the ages to this very day, including you and I, if you consider yourself a holy man?

Obviously God has not stopped prophesying through holy men and women, as this is why certain members were added to the church in order to make it complete.

This is awesome. We are made and accounted as holy in God's eyes. Certain ones of us are appointed to prophesy, others to encouage, interpret tongues, teach, speak in tongues, pastor, administer resources to name a few.

It is interesting to observe people as they try so hard to shut down, disable, deny, reject the Holy Spirit and His role within the church and more generally, in the world. Which is of course, impossible, as He will carry out every last task He was sent down here to complete.

Our Creators are sovereign! All glory to Them!

 

[Earburner]

Not sure what is meant by this, except the "army of Israel" is opinion, while the "angelic host" is more accurate.

The issue here is our disagreement of whether the 2300 days is to be interpreted as meaning 2300 days or 2300 years.
The Hebrew word used in Dan. 8:14 for "days", defines it to be a literal 24 hour period of day time, to evening time, to night time.
Therefore the "2300 day prophecy" is to be interpreted, counted and understood to be 2300 literal days, and not that of any other understanding.

 

[Earburner]

If we fail to remain consistent in our eschatological symbol interpretation by the "holy men" who interpret the symbols for us, we are guilty of "private interpretation".

The term "private interpretation" is heavily weilded by the Papacy, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, SDA, JWs, Mormons etc....YET, they are ALL guilty of it.
For if not, then church-ianity would not be so extremely divided and splintered as it is.

Not because of the Holy Spirit's internal misguidance, but rather by their strict adherence to "the wisdom of men" (1 Cor. 2:5), through their traditions and doctrines of men.
Their understanding is formulated/fabricated by their own human mind of "the natural man", aka "the man of sin", "the son of perdition", instead of listening to "the Mind of Christ" within them (1 Cor. 2:12-16).

One would do well to study and digest ALL OF 1 Cor. 2

 

[Earburner]

Not sure what is meant by this, except the "army of Israel" is opinion, while the "angelic host" is more accurate.

Actually, "angelic host" is the "opinion".
No mere man or multitude of men are able to cast literal angels to the literal ground.

It is evident that you do not know Ancient History, nor do you perceive that to God, by His mind, physical Israel was typified as being "heaven on earth" through them, by establishing the 10C Law among all men.

Dan. 8
[7] And I saw him [he goat-Alex the great] come close unto the ram [Medio-persia], and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram [Medio-Persia] to stand before him [Alex], but he [Alex] cast him [Medio-persia's army] down to the ground, and stamped [trod] upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram [Medio-persia[ out of his [Alex's] hand.
[8] Therefore the he goat [Grecian Empire] waxed [came on] very great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex] was broken; and for it came up four notable ones [horns] toward the four winds of heaven [the compass points of N,W,E&S].

[9] And out of one of them [of the four] came forth a little horn, which waxed [to be] exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [of Israel]
[10] And it waxed [came on] great [strong], even to the host of heaven [army of Israel]; and it cast down some of the host [army of Israel] and of the stars [captains/leaders] to the ground [killed to death], and stamped [troddened over] upon them.

[12] And an host [army] was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth [the 10C Law] to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

[Phoneman777]

My simple question is why are these individual 'holy men' you refer to allowed to personally interpret eachother but not other holy individuals down through the ages to this very day, including you and I, if you consider yourself a holy man?

"Holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" are those whose words are inspired by God - THE PROPHETS. Has the Holy Spirit fallen upon you in vision as was Elijah or Samuel?

Wanna know what "waters" means? Ask John in Revelation 19:10 KJV.
Wanna know what "eagle's wings" means? Ask Habbakuk 1:8 KJV.
Wanna know what a "day" means? Ask Ezekiel 4:6 KJV, Numbers 14:34 KJV, and Luke 13:32 KJV.

Obviously God has not stopped prophesying through holy men and women, as this is why certain members were added to the church in order to make it complete.

No doubt. I'm sure there were those in Paul's day who doubted his words were as inspired and "caliber of Scripture" as Joel and Isaiah, but we today know that to absolutely be true. Trouble is, most "prophets" today don't fall down weak, become supernaturally strong, remain open eyed, and without breathing whilst in vision as in the Bible - but EGW sure did as witnessed by countless people.

This is awesome. We are made and accounted as holy in God's eyes. Certain ones of us are appointed to prophesy, others to encouage, interpret tongues, teach, speak in tongues, pastor, administer resources to name a few.

Again, "moved by the Holy Ghost" refers to what happened to Isaiah and Elijah and Daniel - which I'm certain there isn't any among us that can claim such.

It is interesting to observe people as they try so hard to shut down, disable, deny, reject the Holy Spirit and His role within the church and more generally, in the world. Which is of course, impossible, as He will carry out every last task He was sent down here to complete.

Our Creators are sovereign! All glory to Them!

Much of what is claimed to be the "moving of the Holy Spirit" is actually satanic because "if they speak not according to (the law and the testimony), it is because there is no light in them" - and getting people to "try the spirits" with the Word of God is about as easy as herding cats ;)

 

[Phoneman777]

The issue here is our disagreement of whether the 2300 days is to be interpreted as meaning 2300 days or 2300 years.
The Hebrew word used in Dan. 8:14 for "days", defines it to be a literal 24 hour period of day time, to evening time, to night time.
Therefore the "2300 day prophecy" is to be interpreted, counted and understood to be 2300 literal days, and not that of any other understanding.

I know it's a 24 hour period - my point is that this is a prophetic passage full of symbolism which includes the "24 hour period" is as much symbolic as is the horns, the ram, and the goat - it's symbolic for a year.

 

[Phoneman777]

The term "private interpretation" is heavily weilded by the Papacy, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, SDA, JWs, Mormons etc....YET, they are ALL guilty of it.

SDAs give no private interpretation of anything! Every prophetic symbol we assign is from the "holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually, "angelic host" is the "opinion".

It's a fact, seeing that the 2300 Days are years that point to the "distant future" when the only polluted temple that has any significance is the Heavenly Sanctuary - but for some reason, you guys think the "distant future" is a mere 6.3 years...

No mere man or multitude of men are able to cast literal angels to the literal groun

Since the 2300 Days are symbolic for literal years, the only sanctuary this can apply to is the heavenly.

It is evident that you do not know Ancient History, nor do you perceive that to God, by His mind, physical Israel was typified as being "heaven on earth" through them, by establishing the 10C Law among all men.

Been studying ancient history for years...and when it comes to Antiochus Epiphanes, nothing he did to affect the temple qualifies him as the "Little Horn".

[9] And out of one of them [of the four] came forth a little horn, which waxed [to be] exceeding great, toward the south,

Antiochus never "waxed exceeding great" toward the South (Egypt). The temporary occupation of Egyptian territory by Antiochus and his entire army was halted by a Roman ambassador and his light infantry security team when the ambassador told him to leave, then drew a circle around Antiochus in the sand and demanded an answer before he stepped out of it.

Views shaped by preconceived opinions instead of facts are the reason why so many erroneous interpretations exist.

[10] And it waxed [came on] great [strong], even to the host of heaven [army of Israel]; and it cast down some of the host [army of Israel] and of the stars [captains/leaders] to the ground [killed to death], and stamped [troddened over] upon them.

nope, because Antiochus is not the Little Horn, for the many reasons already shown you, friend.

[12] And an host [army] was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth [the 10C Law] to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Yes, the papacy and it's satanic legion of priests, cardinals, bishops, popes absolutely "trample" ("disrespect") the truth of the heavenly sanctuary and have cast the truth of it to the ground and taken it to themselves.

Just as the temple veil separated men from God, so the Confessional has the "middle wall of partition" separating the sinner from "another Christ" aka "the priest".

 

[Earburner]

I know it's a 24 hour period - my point is that this is a prophetic passage full of symbolism which includes the "24 hour period" is as much symbolic as is the horns, the ram, and the goat - it's symbolic for a year.

In all that I have presented, I have proven without a shadow of a doubt, that the 2300 Day prophecy was counted in literal 24 hour days. The 2300 day prophecy has been completely FULFILLED. It of itself has no extension into the future for being 2300 years!! Prophecy, once fulfilled can never be fulfilled again, but it can be applied in typology, which is what Jesus did with it.
Jesus did point back to that prophecy, and applied it to Himself in typology. Mat. 24:15; Mark 13 :14; John 2:18-21.

> Edit: you have been looking for a cleansed "Heavenly Sanctuary", but you have not found it yet, because it is JESUS HIMSELF. And for those of us, who HAVE become "born again" of His Holy Spirit, though now temporarily we are still mortal, WE OURSELVES ARE the living Heavenly Sanctuary of the Eternal living God, through faith in Jesus, aka His NEW CREATURES of His NEW Creation!!
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this treasure [of God Himself, dwelling] in [our] earthen vessels [our temporary mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

NOW, you can understand what the Feast of Tabernacles (temporary booths/dwelling places) is all about.
From God's perspective, a temporary dwelling place was not about the Jews, but rather FOR GOD HIMSELF (^ 2 Cor. 4:7) of where and how HE was going to permanently dwell WITHIN US, after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
That IS the symbolism that you are looking for.

So then, back to our disagreement.
Not only is the secular, historical overview accurate in documentation, but in 1&2 Maccabees, the Jewish historical record of the details, concerning them, is even more convincing for accuracy, of the prophesied events that happened to them, during "the latter time" of the kingdom of the 3rd beast (Grecian empire).

For the sake of you holding tightly onto your view, you still have not given any scriptural evidence to convince or prove your "stand", except that which is generated by "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

Maybe, you can explain to the Jews what Hanukkah is all about, even though their own history is well known of them, and is exactly what I have pointed out.

 

[One 2 question]

"Holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" are those whose words are inspired by God - THE PROPHETS.

So you aren't saying that those of us who have received the same Holy Ghost aren't being moved by the same Spirit are you? The church needs their function to grow to maturity but God has turned the tap off, stopping the Holy Ghost from breathing out the essential prophecies that are required to nourish, hydrate and grow the Christ's body, the church.

Thankfully the Holy Ghost hasn't stopped moving us along. Praise God for this. We are possessed by God and He through us, breathes out His life, His thoughts, His love and this list goes on and on. The Holy Ghost can't be controlled, stopped or resisted. This is fantastic! He is to us, very unpredictable, moving where He wants, how He want, when He wants, why He wants and doing what He wants. His ways are not our ways, nor our ways are His ways, someone once said.

The unveiling of God's thoughts to His creation have never stopped flowing through holy men and women as we have been moved along by the Holy Ghost.

Again, praise God for His grace that He should enable His beloved Son's growing body, His wife to be, to grow and develope into a mature woman.

Has the Holy Spirit fallen upon you in vision as was Elijah or Samuel?

Yes, yes, yes! Praise God for His loving kindness that He chooses to use us to benefit His people. I receive visions from time to time. One in particular has definatly changed my life, the way I see and know God most importantly. Glory to God for His goodness, mercy, grace and love for His creations.

 

[One 2 question]

Trouble is, most "prophets" today don't fall down weak, become supernaturally strong, remain open eyed, and without breathing whilst in vision as in the Bible

Is this a formula, condition, evidence that must accompany a true prophetic experience?
1. fall down weak
2. become supernaturally strong
3. remain open eyed
4. without breathing
5. whilst in vision as in the Bible

Who conceived this? Were they a Holy man, inspired by God through the Holy Ghost?

 

[Earburner]

"Holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" are those whose words are inspired by God - THE PROPHETS. Has the Holy Spirit fallen upon you in vision as was Elijah or Samuel?

Wanna know what "waters" means? Ask John in Revelation 19:10 KJV.
Wanna know what "eagle's wings" means? Ask Habbakuk 1:8 KJV.
Wanna know what a "day" means? Ask Ezekiel 4:6 KJV, Numbers 14:34 KJV, and Luke 13:32 KJV.

No doubt. I'm sure there were those in Paul's day who doubted his words were as inspired and "caliber of Scripture" as Joel and Isaiah, but we today know that to absolutely be true. Trouble is, most "prophets" today don't fall down weak, become supernaturally strong, remain open eyed, and without breathing whilst in vision as in the Bible - but EGW sure did as witnessed by countless people.

Again, "moved by the Holy Ghost" refers to what happened to Isaiah and Elijah and Daniel - which I'm certain there isn't any among us that can claim such.

Much of what is claimed to be the "moving of the Holy Spirit" is actually satanic because "if they speak not according to (the law and the testimony), it is because there is no light in them" - and getting people to "try the spirits" with the Word of God is about as easy as herding cats ;)

Yes!! I am born again of the Holy Spirit, through a vision given to me of 1 Tim. 4:1-9, of which at the time I knew nothing of such of the Bible. So then, not only was I "moved" by the Holy Spirit, I came to God in repentance through faith in Jesus, and then personally invited Him into my life. John 3:3-8; Rev. 3:20. Rom. 8:8-9.

Isa. 8
[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
[20] To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You should be careful of how you mean the above scripture. Jesus Himself is the Light of the world, not the 10C Law. However, since He is the only being who has ever fulfilled the Law, the Righteousness of God, which is NOT of or by the Law, is freely given to all, who HAVE BEEN converted to Christ. :)

 

[One 2 question]

Again, "moved by the Holy Ghost" refers to what happened to Isaiah and Elijah and Daniel - which I'm certain there isn't any among us that can claim such.

Again, absolutely have been, are and will be more to come until the church is brought to full maturity and is complete.

I speak from experience. It's brilliant, awesome, inspiring, uplifting and continually develops increased faith in such a wonderful God. Personally this is one of the miriad of fruit the indwelling Holy Ghost has produced in me. Him Who does everything according to Creators' will, for Their pleasure and glory.

But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. Jesus said this. The greatest Prophet of all. Matt 13:16&17

We get to see and know more than prophets pre Jesus.

 

[One 2 question]

Much of what is claimed to be the "moving of the Holy Spirit" is actually satanic

Out of interest, how do you know this to be true? Have you spent a lot of time interacting with Holy Ghost filled and moved people over the past 2000 years? If you haven't then I'm not sure if what you claim grants you to be an authority in this area.

For you and I could also be inpacted, influenced and even moved along by another spirit from time to time. Also I can be moved along by my own thoughts and desires. What about you?

For God even deceives people, not just Satan.

 

[One 2 question]

getting people to "try the spirits" with the Word of God is about as easy as herding cats

Haha. Never tried hearing cats.

I used to like formulas. They can be very predictable, not like the Holy Ghost Who is like the wind, blowing wherever He wants.

Trying to get someone to do something can be very challenging, especially something they aren't comfortable or confident in doing. How are you with being moved along by the Holy Ghost to discern what spirit someone is being moved along by?

When the Holy Ghost carries out Father's will and produces a strong delusion so the people believe a lie, are you going to acknowledge it as being from God or Satan? Time will tell.

God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. 2 Thess 2:11

 

[Earburner]

Antiochus never "waxed exceeding great" toward the South (Egypt). The temporary occupation of Egyptian territory by Antiochus and his entire army was halted by a Roman ambassador and his light infantry security team when the ambassador told him to leave, then drew a circle around Antiochus in the sand and demanded an answer before he stepped out of it.

Views shaped by preconceived opinions instead of facts are the reason why so many erroneous interpretations exist.

First of all, you are not understanding what the word "waxed" means. If you did, you would understand that AE-lV had the desire to exceed beyond the greatness of great.

You better look hard into who is saying what, as to who is running amuck with preconceived "opinions".

Here are just a few:
1. You want to make the 2300 day prophecy into being "years",
But I bring it back into focus, revealing that it truly is scripturally "days", with all of it taking place before Jesus' first appearance.

2. You want to call a "host" angels,
But I bring it back to scriptural reality, revealing that a "host" describes "armies of men".

3. You want to apply the words: "cut off" to be something, however you have not yet provided the scripture to validate your understanding of what you think is "cut off",
But I reel you in and point you directly to the scripture of Dan. 9:26, which clearly states that it is the Messiah who is "cut off", but not for himself. You have made no comment.

4. You have pushed the "little horn" out into the far future, being that of the Papacy,
But I put the fulfilled prophetic words in your sight, of which history, both secular and Jewish, emphatically reveal, that the "little horn" WAS Antiochus Epiphanes lV, in the latter time of the 3rd beast, the Grecian empire, and that there is no other "little horn", that is still to come.

5. You want to make the "little horn" to have risen later from out of the 10H of the Roman Empire,
But I have shown that AE-lV (the one and only "little horn") rose "among the 10 horns" of the Roman Republic, because AE-lV himself was NOT OF the 10 horns, but rather he was of the Grecian Empire, during it's "latter times".

 

[Phoneman777]

In all that I have presented, I have proven without a shadow of a doubt, that the 2300 Day prophecy was counted in literal 24 hour days. The 2300 day prophecy has been completely FULFILLED. It of itself has no extension into the future for being 2300 years!! Prophecy, once fulfilled can never be fulfilled again, but it can be applied in typology, which is what Jesus did with it.
Jesus did point back to that prophecy, and applied it to Himself in typology. Mat. 24:15; Mark 13 :14; John 2:18-21.

> Edit: you have been looking for a cleansed "Heavenly Sanctuary", but you have not found it yet, because it is JESUS HIMSELF. And for those of us, who HAVE become "born again" of His Holy Spirit, though now temporarily we are still mortal, WE OURSELVES ARE the living Heavenly Sanctuary of the Eternal living God, through faith in Jesus, aka His NEW CREATURES of His NEW Creation!!
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this treasure [of God Himself, dwelling] in [our] earthen vessels [our temporary mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

NOW, you can understand what the Feast of Tabernacles (temporary booths/dwelling places) is all about.
From God's perspective, a temporary dwelling place was not about the Jews, but rather FOR GOD HIMSELF (^ 2 Cor. 4:7) of where and how HE was going to permanently dwell WITHIN US, after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
That IS the symbolism that you are looking for.

So then, back to our disagreement.
Not only is the secular, historical overview accurate in documentation, but in 1&2 Maccabees, the Jewish historical record of the details, concerning them, is even more convincing for accuracy, of the prophesied events that happened to them, during "the latter time" of the kingdom of the 3rd beast (Grecian empire).

For the sake of you holding tightly onto your view, you still have not given any scriptural evidence to convince or prove your "stand", except that which is generated by "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

Maybe, you can explain to the Jews what Hanukkah is all about, even though their own history is well known of them, and is exactly what I have pointed out.

So, who took away the "daily" for 2300 Days?