Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[FaithWillDo]

Sorry for taking so long to get back here. Thanks for your replies. So the "end" of the ungodly and sinners who obey not the gospel.....isn't really the end (as opposed to eternal life)..? Same with destruction and perish.....they don't mean quite what they are saying? Are you saying those terms are hyperbole or allegorical somehow?

But what about where it talks about those who perish like the animals? Do animals/beasts receive eternal life?

Psa 49:12
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the salvation of the believer and the salvation of the unbeliever that you are talking about. What is the difference ultimately, if both get saved to eternal life? Why would it be so important to believe in this life then? And many pay a heavy price to get the gospel preached so that people can believe, even at the cost of their lives.

In Acts it mentions how those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". To me that must mean those who did not believe were not appointed to eternal life. How will they receive eternal life of they are not appointed to receive it?

Sorry to pepper you with so many questions. Trying to make sense of what you are saying.

Dear Lizbeth,
You asked:
So the "end" of the ungodly and sinners who obey not the gospel.....isn't really the end (as opposed to eternal life)..? Same with destruction and perish.....they don't mean quite what they are saying? Are you saying those terms are hyperbole or allegorical somehow?

I'll try to bring a little more clarity to what I have been presenting.

Firstly, NO ONE but Christ has the ability to obey the gospel and to keep the Lord's commands. In that sense, mankind is like "beasts" who are led by their carnal instincts and who will perish.

Adam and Eve were was created spiritually marred and they quickly became carnally minded. Eve even displayed her carnality prior to her sinning in the Garden of Eden.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It is mankind's carnality that causes mankind to disobey God and to sin. Because of such, mankind has no ability to obey the gospel or to have faith in Christ. Paul makes this point very clear in some of his letters. Here are some of the key statements by Paul:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity (hatred) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Also, the Old Covenant (which is based solely on the works of man) was given to prove to mankind that they will always fall short of God's righteousness. As a result, the Old Covenant cannot save mankind because it cannot change mankind from within (spiritually). Unless mankind changes spiritually, mankind will always be carnal & sinful.

Since mankind is sinful (and the penalty of sin is death), John 3:18 says that mankind is "condemned already". As a result, all mankind will perish in the Lake of Fire - either in this age or in the final age. No one can escape this fate. Scripture is full of verses which state this truth.

Here is how to understand John 3:18 - my comments are in blue:

John 3:18 He (converted person/child of God) that believeth on him is not condemned: but he (all mankind) that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Because mankind's destiny is to perish in the Lake of Fire, the only way for Christ to save mankind is for Christ (by His work alone) to make mankind into a new creation.

The old vessel which is spiritually marred will be destroyed and made into a new vessel by mankind's Potter (Christ):

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Here is mankind's spiritual makeup:

MIND + SPIRIT/HEART = A LIVING SOUL

Because mankind's spirit/heart is marred, mankind's spiritual nature is carnal. This makes the formula look like this:

CARNAL MIND + CARNAL SPIRIT/WICKED HEART = A LIVING SOUL

To make the necessary spiritual change within mankind without destroying a person's individual consciousness, Christ will come to every person who has ever lived and remove their marred spirit and give them a new spirit.

Eze 36:26 A new heart (new spirit) also will I give you, and a new spirit (the Holy Spirit) will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Mankind's carnal mind (which contains our individual consciousness) will not be destroyed, but will be transformed by the new spirit/heart into the mind of Christ. This spiritual process that Christ will perform within mankind is called "conversion". Conversion destroys the old vessel and creates the new vessel.

After a person is converted, they will spiritually no longer be a part of mankind who dwells upon the earth. As a new child of God, the person will dwell with Christ in heaven.

Note: The terms "earth" and "heaven" are "spirit" words (John 6:63, 1Cor 12:3) and they do not represent a literal location - they represent a spiritual state of being.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Sorry for taking so long to get back here. Thanks for your replies. So the "end" of the ungodly and sinners who obey not the gospel.....isn't really the end (as opposed to eternal life)..? Same with destruction and perish.....they don't mean quite what they are saying? Are you saying those terms are hyperbole or allegorical somehow?

But what about where it talks about those who perish like the animals? Do animals/beasts receive eternal life?

Psa 49:12
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the salvation of the believer and the salvation of the unbeliever that you are talking about. What is the difference ultimately, if both get saved to eternal life? Why would it be so important to believe in this life then? And many pay a heavy price to get the gospel preached so that people can believe, even at the cost of their lives.

In Acts it mentions how those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". To me that must mean those who did not believe were not appointed to eternal life. How will they receive eternal life of they are not appointed to receive it?

Sorry to pepper you with so many questions. Trying to make sense of what you are saying.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
I'm not sure I understand the difference between the salvation of the believer and the salvation of the unbeliever that you are talking about. What is the difference ultimately, if both get saved to eternal life? Why would it be so important to believe in this life then? And many pay a heavy price to get the gospel preached so that people can believe, even at the cost of their lives.

I have been asked these types of questions many times on forums. Here is what Paul says is the difference between the Elect who are saved in this age and the balance of mankind who will be saved in the final age:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This scripture is teaching about all mankind who will be judged by Christ. It breaks mankind down into TWO groups. One group is the Elect. The other group is the balance of mankind.

The Elect are chosen by Christ from the foundation of the world to be saved early (as compared to most of mankind). They are the First Fruits of the harvest of mankind. They are called "blessed" because they are the ones who were chosen to receive the reward of being an "heir" to the promises made to Abraham. Their reward is to have "life" during the ages and to receive the glory and honor of reigning with Christ in the final age to save the rest of mankind. One other important point is that the Elect do not experience wrath during their time of judgment as will the balance of mankind.

The Elect are blessed not because of anything they have ever done to deserve it. They are blessed solely because it satisfies the purposes of God:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Also, (and this is very important), mankind has no say in whether they are saved now or later. There is nothing (no works) that a non-chosen person can do to save themselves in this age AND there is nothing that a chosen person can do to stop from being saved in this age. No one gets to choose. We are all the workmanship of Christ and He is the one who decides when He will save a person.

After Christ converts one of His Elect, many times in scripture they will identify themselves as "bondservants" to Christ. The term "servants" is used in the KJV instead of "bondservant".

All the Elect are considered bondservants because they recognize that it is Christ who causes them to "will and do of His good pleasure":

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

After I have presented this truth above to people on the forums who have asked questions like you have, they will usually give me a negative reply and say that Christ would never operate in this world as I have explained above. They still believe in their own free will abilities to choose for themselves "if and when" they are going accept Christ's free gift of salvation. They reject the teachings of Paul which say "none seeketh after God" and that the natural man considers the things of God to be "foolishness". By believing in free will, they make themselves out to be equal with God, who alone has a free will ability.

Here is scripture's reply to these "believers" who insist that Christ would never operate in this world the way I have explained above:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob (represents the Elect) have I loved, but Esau (represents the non-Elect) have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We are all at the mercy of Christ to come to each of us and save us. By the end of the final age, it will be testified to be true that Christ really is the Savior of the world:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You said:
In Acts it mentions how those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". To me that must mean those who did not believe were not appointed to eternal life. How will they receive eternal life of they are not appointed to receive it?

Here is the verse when it is incorrectly translated:

Acts 14:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Here is the verse when it is correctly translated:

Acts 14:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;

All mankind will receive "life" but only the Elect will receive "life" during the ages. That is one of the rewards the Elect will receive.

The Greek word "anioios" is the adjective form of "aion" which means "age". It should never be translated as "eternal" but because of translator bias, it's frequently translated that way.

Does that scripture makes better sense to you now after seeing its correct translation?

Joe

 

[One 2 question]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the salvation of the believer and the salvation of the unbeliever that you are talking about. What is the difference ultimately, if both get saved to eternal life? Why would it be so important to believe in this life then? And many pay a heavy price to get the gospel preached so that people can believe, even at the cost of their lives.

Jesus is going out of His way to redeem some people from every nation, from every tongue, tribe and people with His blood. Obviously not every person.

These who He gathers, after cleansing and redeeming with His blood, will have specific ministries to carry out in His coming global government.

Will all creations be redeemed and restored at this point? No. That will come later. That is going to be performed by God at another future point of eternity. Then ALL will be redeemed. Hallelujah! This bring me great joy knowing that God does all things very well, for His glory and never-ending pleasure.

Oh to know that the Creators will gather ALL things to Themselves and we will live happy ever after. Now that's fantastic news, a gospel worth embracing.

 

[Earburner]

How can the "lost" appear before Christ at the White Throne if they are not resurrected back to life? Christ is the resurrection and He earned the keys to death and hell. He has the power and authority to resurrect anyone He chooses from death.

They are NOT resurrected back to life, but rather to the condemnation of God's fiery judgment they had "ALREADY", which was they ignored and/or rejected Christ, the ONLY means of God's salvation for them, while they had breath.
In other words they NEVER accepted/received the early rain and the latter rain AT ALL. They all are the son(s) of perdition and are LOST, just as much as Judas Iscariot.

There is no other fictional "add on" Age of God's Grace to come again, that will be "special" for the wicked unsaved. The Grace of God's plan of salvation, through FAITH in Christ, will END in the literal DAY of Christ's VISIBLE and Glorious return from Heaven. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10. All know of it as being "the consumation".
 Edit:
The great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-25) is a metaphor for John 3:18.
The book of life is the criteria, who is Jesus Himself. All other so called books are not necessary at all.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Sorry for taking so long to get back here. Thanks for your replies. So the "end" of the ungodly and sinners who obey not the gospel.....isn't really the end (as opposed to eternal life)..? Same with destruction and perish.....they don't mean quite what they are saying? Are you saying those terms are hyperbole or allegorical somehow?

But what about where it talks about those who perish like the animals? Do animals/beasts receive eternal life?

Psa 49:12
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the salvation of the believer and the salvation of the unbeliever that you are talking about. What is the difference ultimately, if both get saved to eternal life? Why would it be so important to believe in this life then? And many pay a heavy price to get the gospel preached so that people can believe, even at the cost of their lives.

In Acts it mentions how those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". To me that must mean those who did not believe were not appointed to eternal life. How will they receive eternal life of they are not appointed to receive it?

Sorry to pepper you with so many questions. Trying to make sense of what you are saying.

Dear Lizbeth,
My wife read our exchange and she pointed out to me that I didn't really answer your question below:

You asked:
But what about where it talks about those who perish like the animals? Do animals/beasts receive eternal life?

When Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross, He earned the keys to death and hell. Though mankind perishes like beasts, Christ will resurrect the all mankind from the grave at the end of this age. At that time, all mankind will be brought back to life and will appear before Christ's White Throne where He will separate them as sheep from goats.

As for animals being resurrected, I don't know of any scripture that teaches that this will happen.

I also wanted to point out that the word "beasts" is also used as a spiritual symbol. It can represent apostate believers or even Satan. They are called "beasts" because they kill the saints. The word "beasts" does not always mean literal animals.

Below are an examples of where the word "beasts" is symbolic of apostate believers.

I will begin with one of the verses you quoted:

Psa 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not (referring to apostate believers), is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 79:2 The dead bodies of thy servants (the Elect after they are spiritually killed by Satan) have been given to be meat (false teachings) unto the fowls of the heaven (unclean spirits), the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth (apostate believers).

Job 35:10 But none saith, Where is God my maker, who giveth songs in the night; 11 Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth (apostate believers), and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven (unclean spirits)?

2Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts (apostate believers), made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.

Satan is even represented by the word "beast" because he is the "head" of the apostate church (Christ is the head of converted believers/the true church):

Psa 30:30 A lion (Satan) which is strongest among beasts, and turneth not away for any;

1Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Joe

 

[Lizbeth]

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
I'm not sure I understand the difference between the salvation of the believer and the salvation of the unbeliever that you are talking about. What is the difference ultimately, if both get saved to eternal life? Why would it be so important to believe in this life then? And many pay a heavy price to get the gospel preached so that people can believe, even at the cost of their lives.

I have been asked these types of questions many times on forums. Here is what Paul says is the difference between the Elect who are saved in this age and the balance of mankind who will be saved in the final age:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This scripture is teaching about all mankind who will be judged by Christ. It breaks mankind down into TWO groups. One group is the Elect. The other group is the balance of mankind.

The Elect are chosen by Christ from the foundation of the world to be saved early (as compared to most of mankind). They are the First Fruits of the harvest of mankind. They are called "blessed" because they are the ones who were chosen to receive the reward of being an "heir" to the promises made to Abraham. Their reward is to have "life" during the ages and to receive the glory and honor of reigning with Christ in the final age to save the rest of mankind. One other important point is that the Elect do not experience wrath during their time of judgment as will the balance of mankind.

The Elect are blessed not because of anything they have ever done to deserve it. They are blessed solely because it satisfies the purposes of God:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Also, (and this is very important), mankind has no say in whether they are saved now or later. There is nothing (no works) that a non-chosen person can do to save themselves in this age AND there is nothing that a chosen person can do to stop from being saved in this age. No one gets to choose. We are all the workmanship of Christ and He is the one who decides when He will save a person.

After Christ converts one of His Elect, many times in scripture they will identify themselves as "bondservants" to Christ. The term "servants" is used in the KJV instead of "bondservant".

All the Elect are considered bondservants because they recognize that it is Christ who causes them to "will and do of His good pleasure":

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

After I have presented this truth above to people on the forums who have asked questions like you have, they will usually give me a negative reply and say that Christ would never operate in this world as I have explained above. They still believe in their own free will abilities to choose for themselves "if and when" they are going accept Christ's free gift of salvation. They reject the teachings of Paul which say "none seeketh after God" and that the natural man considers the things of God to be "foolishness". By believing in free will, they make themselves out to be equal with God, who alone has a free will ability.

Here is scripture's reply to these "believers" who insist that Christ would never operate in this world the way I have explained above:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob (represents the Elect) have I loved, but Esau (represents the non-Elect) have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We are all at the mercy of Christ to come to each of us and save us. By the end of the final age, it will be testified to be true that Christ really is the Savior of the world:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You said:
In Acts it mentions how those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". To me that must mean those who did not believe were not appointed to eternal life. How will they receive eternal life of they are not appointed to receive it?

Here is the verse when it is incorrectly translated:

Acts 14:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Here is the verse when it is correctly translated:

Acts 14:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;

All mankind will receive "life" but only the Elect will receive "life" during the ages. That is one of the rewards the Elect will receive.

The Greek word "anioios" is the adjective form of "aion" which means "age". It should never be translated as "eternal" but because of translator bias, it's frequently translated that way.

Does that scripture makes better sense to you now after seeing its correct translation?

Joe

Whew, I'm finding it's a lot to parse and chew on and I'm not young any more. Just can't get my head around it all right now, so I'll have to let it percolate and simmer on a back burner for a while and see if anything cooks up......asking the Lord to sift this.

 

[FaithWillDo]

They are NOT resurrected back to life, but rather to the condemnation of God's fiery judgment they had "ALREADY", which was they ignored and/or rejected Christ, the ONLY means of God's salvation for them, while they had breath.
In other words they NEVER accepted/received the early rain and the latter rain AT ALL. They all are the son(s) of perdition and are LOST, just as much as Judas Iscariot.

There is no other fictional "add on" Age of God's Grace to come again, that will be "special" for the wicked unsaved. The Grace of God's plan of salvation, through FAITH in Christ, will END in the literal DAY of Christ's VISIBLE and Glorious return from Heaven. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10. All know of it as being "the consumation".

Dear Earburner,
When I say the "lost" are resurrected back to "life", I don't mean that they are saved. They are resurrected back to life in the same lost spiritual condition they had before they died. They will then appear before the White Throne and be cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment.

From that judgment, they will be redeemed:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, IN JUDGMENT, and in righteousness; and the nations shall BLESS THEMSELVES in him, and in him shall they glory.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and JUDGMENT: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

You do not understand judgment and how it applies to conversion.

Christ judges mankind because He loves mankind. That is why Christ longed to start that process of judgment upon the earth:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire (judgment) on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

You are seeing Christ as a "hard man" when He is not.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Christ is loving, kind, merciful and full of the goodness of God. The "lost" in the Lake of Fire will discover this truth about Him when they are redeemed by His judgment.

You said:
In other words they NEVER accepted/received the early rain and the latter rain AT ALL. They all are the son(s) of perdition and are LOST, just as much as Judas Iscariot.

Mankind has NO ABILITY to accept or to reject the Spirit. It is freely given to them without their knowledge. After it is given to them, they will call Jesus "Lord" when they are presented the Gospel. No one with the Spirit can reject Christ.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Also, to be like Judas, a person must be given the Early Rain of the Spirit and then be given the spirit of anti-Christ. Both spirits are within the person which causes them to try and serve TWO masters. And since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small measure, the spirit of anti-Christ will win the spiritual war within the person. After it does, the spirit of anti-Christ (Satan) will remain the person's "head" and will govern them. The blow to the person's head from the Sword of Christ will be healed. The Seven Headed Beast is representative of an apostate believer who is controlled by the second Beast (spirit of anti-Christ).

You said:
There is no other fictional "add on" Age of God's Grace to come again, that will be "special" for the wicked unsaved. The Grace of God's plan of salvation, through FAITH in Christ, will END in the literal DAY of Christ's VISIBLE and Glorious return from Heaven. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10. All know of it as being "the consumation".

There is plenty of scripture that teaches about the final age (the Lake of Fire age) when the "lost" are saved.

Here is just one of them:

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out (of the Lake of Fire) until you have paid the last penny.”

And another:

1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the Lake of Fire/judgment).

God's grace never ends. Why do you believe it will? Don't you know that God never changes.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

As for the Second Coming of Christ - His second coming occurs when Christ returns to a fallen away Elect believer. When Christ comes to them, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and heal the person's spiritual blindness. After their blindness is healed, Christ will appear to the newly "born again" person. His judgment will then follow to destroy the child of the Devil (the chaff/their carnality) which still remains within the person.

John the Baptist said it this way:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) will give the person a new birth. The baptism of Fire (judgment) will purify/remove the things that make them carnal. This spiritual process of conversion is what has to happen in order for a person to born as a child of God and for them to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Your understanding of the Second Coming of Christ is false and is contradicted by what scripture actually teaches.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Whew, I'm finding it's a lot to parse and chew on and I'm not young any more. Just can't get my head around it all right now, so I'll have to let it percolate and simmer on a back burner for a while and see if anything cooks up......asking the Lord to sift this.

Dear Lizbeth,
I highly recommend that you pray for understanding. That is what the Lord caused me to do many years ago when He was ready to convert me. Christ responded by giving me the Latter Rain of the Spirit which opened up my understanding. It was the greatest day of my life!

My conversion testimony is posted on my website which is shown under my member name.

One final point: the apostate church is consuming "hidden" leaven (false teachings) in the loaf of bread that Satan feeds them. The whole loaf of bread is leavened which means there is a lot to "unlearn" after an Elect believer comes out from the apostate church.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman (man's carnal nature/Great Harlot) took (from Satan), and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The leaven is hidden in the bread which explains why the apostate church believes that they are the true church. A person cannot know that they are under Satan's deceptions while it is happening. That is the nature of deception.

If you ever have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
When I say the "lost" are resurrected back to "life", I don't mean that they are saved. They are resurrected back to life in the same lost spiritual condition they had before they died. They will then appear before the White Throne and be cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment.

From that judgment, they will be redeemed:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, IN JUDGMENT, and in righteousness; and the nations shall BLESS THEMSELVES in him, and in him shall they glory.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and JUDGMENT: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

You do not understand judgment and how it applies to conversion.

Christ judges mankind because He loves mankind. That is why Christ longed to start that process of judgment upon the earth:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire (judgment) on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

You are seeing Christ as a "hard man" when He is not.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Christ is loving, kind, merciful and full of the goodness of God. The "lost" in the Lake of Fire will discover this truth about Him when they are redeemed by His judgment.

You said:
In other words they NEVER accepted/received the early rain and the latter rain AT ALL. They all are the son(s) of perdition and are LOST, just as much as Judas Iscariot.

Mankind has NO ABILITY to accept or to reject the Spirit. It is freely given to them without their knowledge. After it is given to them, they will call Jesus "Lord" when they are presented the Gospel. No one with the Spirit can reject Christ.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Also, to be like Judas, a person must be given the Early Rain of the Spirit and then be given the spirit of anti-Christ. Both spirits are within the person which causes them to try and serve TWO masters. And since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small measure, the spirit of anti-Christ will win the spiritual war within the person. After it does, the spirit of anti-Christ (Satan) will remain the person's "head" and will govern them. The blow to the person's head from the Sword of Christ will be healed. The Seven Headed Beast is representative of an apostate believer who is controlled by the second Beast (spirit of anti-Christ).

You said:
There is no other fictional "add on" Age of God's Grace to come again, that will be "special" for the wicked unsaved. The Grace of God's plan of salvation, through FAITH in Christ, will END in the literal DAY of Christ's VISIBLE and Glorious return from Heaven. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10. All know of it as being "the consumation".

There is plenty of scripture that teaches about the final age (the Lake of Fire age) when the "lost" are saved.

Here is just one of them:

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out (of the Lake of Fire) until you have paid the last penny.”

And another:

1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the Lake of Fire/judgment).

God's grace never ends. Why do you believe it will? Don't you know that God never changes.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

As for the Second Coming of Christ - His second coming occurs when Christ returns to a fallen away Elect believer. When Christ comes to them, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and heal the person's spiritual blindness. After their blindness is healed, Christ will appear to the newly "born again" person. His judgment will then follow to destroy the child of the Devil (the chaff/their carnality) which still remains within the person.

John the Baptist said it this way:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) will give the person a new birth. The baptism of Fire (judgment) will purify/remove the things that make them carnal. This spiritual process of conversion is what has to happen in order for a person to born as a child of God and for them to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Your understanding of the Second Coming of Christ is false and is contradicted by what scripture actually teaches.

Joe

It appears that you are dancing around two scriptures that you care not to discuss.
2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rom. 8
[9] But ye [who are born again[ are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[FaithWillDo]

It appears that you are dancing around two scriptures that you care not to discuss.
2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Dear Earburner,
2Thes 1:7 is the Second coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and judges the carnality of the believer. That is how the non-converted believers to whom Paul is writing to will be able to enter into the "rest" of Christ like Paul and the others with Paul have done. It is the man of sin who is cast into the Lake of Fire, not the new child of God. This is what happens when an Elect believer is converted.

Rom 9:8 only says that unconverted mankind is "none of his". It is completely silent on the salvation that will come to them later while they are being judged in the Lake of Fire. You should stop adding to scripture.

Why do you believe that Christ's love and mercy come to an end after this age? Nothing in scripture even hints that it will.

Christ was sent to save all mankind by His Father. Your beliefs make Christ out to be a failure who cannot save most of mankind. But if Christ were to fail to save even one person, Christ will miss the mark that His Father set for Him. This would be a sin. Can't you see that?

There are also many scriptures which state that Christ will save all mankind. Why do you not believe them? You are letting your false belief in mankind's supposed free will ability override the teachings of scripture. Only God the Father has a free will, mankind does not.

When a believer mixes works with faith, they are committing the sin that leads to death. Even if a believer adds only one work to the work of Christ, they will fall from grace.

When Christ does His work within a person, they can no longer reject Him. Christ is now spirit and His work is now spiritual. Do you know what that means? Christ will change a person from within, and when He does, their heart and mind will change. Mankind's "will" is nothing for Christ to overcome. You treat Christ like He is no more powerful than mankind.

There is nothing I can do to help you understand until Christ does His work within you first. That is the way Christ operates in the world. Carnal mankind has no ability to seek Him out or to understand His spiritual teachings until Christ changes a person from within. Mankind is at the mercy of Christ to save them. When Christ is ready to "appear" to you, 2Thes 1:7-9 will happen in your life and you will then be able to receive the scriptures I have presented.

I can see no beneficial reason to continue this discussion with you.

Joe

 

[One 2 question]

Christ is loving, kind, merciful and full of the goodness of God. The "lost" in the Lake of Fire will discover this truth about Him when they are redeemed by His judgment.

What a fantastic revelation of our Redeemer and Creator! Great to hear this truth being believed and shared.

 

[One 2 question]

Ex

God's grace never ends. Why do you believe it will?

Excellent question!

 

[One 2 question]

Also, to be like Judas, a person must be given the Early Rain of the Spirit and then be given the spirit of anti-Christ. Both spirits are within the person which causes them to try and serve TWO masters. And since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small measure, the spirit of anti-Christ will win the spiritual war within the person. After it does, the spirit of anti-Christ (Satan) will remain the person's "head" and will govern them. The blow to the person's head from the Sword of Christ will be healed.

Yes, Judas was one of the 12 guys Jesus addressed when He promised this...
Luke 22:14,29&30
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas will be redeemed, reconciled, restored and blessed beyond measure in God's kingdom to come.

What an amazing God we have come to know. His mercy endures forever, without end or beginning because it has always been a part of God, His person and His character.

 

[One 2 question]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) will give the person a new birth.

The indwelling Spirit has given people new birth into Jesus body, who are making up His bride. These will rule and reign with Him in His upcoming 1,000 year kingdom.

Judas will be there ruling and reigning over one of the tribes of Israel, or maybe over the whole 12 tribes as promised to him by the King of Kings, the Ruler of the global government.

Can't wait for this to eventuate. But thank God for that fruit of the Spirit, patience.

 

[Earburner]

Why do you believe that Christ's love and mercy come to an end after this age? Nothing in scripture even hints that it will.

Heb. 9:24-28
[28] So Christ was once offered to BEAR the SINS of many; and unto them that LOOK for him [by faith] shall he appear the SECOND time [in flaming fire] without SIN [that He bore] unto salvation.
2Cor. 5
[21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10 is a simultaneous event of "when" He shall be revealed from heaven. Now, compare that to Luke 17:28-30.
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day [simultaneously] that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and DESTROYED them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed FROM heaven.

But after His resurrection into New Eternal Life with Immortality, in His future visible and Glorious return from Heaven, He will no longer be ruling in the capacity of being our High Priest, but rather as our Savior/ Redeemer, King of kings, for we who ARE Born Again, shall be "changed into His likeness" of His Immortality.
.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Heb. 9:24-28
[28] So Christ was once offered to BEAR the SINS of many; and unto them that LOOK for him [by faith] shall he appear the SECOND time [in flaming fire] without SIN unto salvation.
KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10 is a simultaneous event of "when" He shall be revealed from heaven..

2Cor. 5
[21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

But after His resurrection into New Eternal Life with Immortality, in His future visible and Glorious return from Heaven, He will no longer be ruling in the capacity of being our High Priest, but rather as our Savior/ Redeemer, King of kings, for we will be "changed into His likeness" of His Immortality
.

Dear Earburner,
Christ is now spirit and when He returns to a believer to convert them (His second coming), He will appear spiritually to them (between their ears, so to speak) because their spiritual blindness will be healed when He gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

As Paul says below, the purpose of Christ's second coming is to bring salvation to His Elect (those who are waiting for him):

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Even the 120 Jewish Elect had to wait for the Lord to return and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. Their waiting was symbolically shown here:

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Christ will never appear again like He did the first time where He was seen with human eyes. He will remain in "heaven" (the spiritual realm) until the restitution of all things:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Do you believe you are saved now? I'm sure you would say yes.

Tell me then, why does Paul say that Christ brings salvation to those who are waiting for Him (unconverted Elect believers) when He appears the second time?

The first time Christ appears to a person is when He comes to them and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Since the Early Rain does not heal the person's spiritual blindness, the new believer can only see Christ "in the flesh" (Christ and Him crucified). In other words, the new believer can only see Christ through scripture carnally. They cannot understand the spiritual language of Christ.

After the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church, the believers started denying that Christ ever came to them "in the flesh". They were being told that the Early Rain of the Spirit which they first received was actually the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because they were told that they had received what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost, they believed that they were converted when they were not. That is why John said this to the converted believers he was writing to:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"As little children" is how all converted believers begin walking the pathway to spiritual maturity.

"Babes" are unconverted believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. The "babes" remain carnal and "are of the world". When they speak, the world hears them.

This is not true of converted believers who are "drawn from the breasts" and have become as "little children". When a converted believer speaks, the world cannot hear them for the same reason that the world could not hear Christ.

Consider this scripture:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers/little children) 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

"Babes" (who only have the Early Rain of the Spirit) will remain carnal in their understanding of Christ (they speak as the world speaks). Because they remain spiritually blind and unable to understand the truth that Christ teaches, they will "fall backward and be broken and snared and taken". This is why all new believers will fall away/lose their salvation and enter Satan's apostate church. And because even the Elect will experience this "Day of Evil" (time of "great tribulation") before they are converted, scripture says that salvation only comes to the Elect when Christ returns with the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

Even to this day, the apostate churches of this world deny the need for both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Most have no idea what the Early and Latter Rains represent. However, a few have some understanding, but they still misapply that teaching.

The tower of Babel is a physical "type" that represents the apostate church and that is why there are so many different denominations/sects of apostate Christianity. They have no unity of truth. The unity of truth that the Apostles taught early on in the churches was "confused" so that the apostate churches all speak different languages. The only common factor the apostate churches have is that they all follow the "another gospel" of Satan which mixes works with faith.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

The indwelling Spirit has given people new birth into Jesus body, who are making up His bride. These will rule and reign with Him in His upcoming 1,000 year kingdom.

Judas will be there ruling and reigning over one of the tribes of Israel, or maybe over the whole 12 tribes as promised to him by the King of Kings, the Ruler of the global government.

Can't wait for this to eventuate. But thank God for that fruit of the Spirit, patience.

Dear 12question,
Why do you believe Judas will be one of the Elect who will reign with Christ?

Judas represented the apostate church who will receive their portion with the unbelievers. Judas will be one of the goats in the Lake of Fire who still needs salvation.

In the end, Judas will be saved, but he will suffer the loss of the rewards that the other 11 Apostles received.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

 

[One 2 question]

Why do you believe Judas will be one of the Elect who will reign with Christ?

Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.....29 I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 -30 You are the ones who have stood by Me in My trials. And I bestow on you a kingdom, just as My Father has bestowed one on Me, so that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas was one of Jesus's disciple and present with Him when He spoke these words.

'And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him'.

 

[One 2 question]

In the end, Judas will be saved, but he will suffer the loss of the rewards that the other 11 Apostles received.

Did the Spirit of Christ reveal this to you directly? If so, then great.

Our hope for Judas is a bit different, as I look forward to seeing Judas ruling with the other 11 in His coming kingdom.

If he doesn't, we will catch up with him and spend forever after with Judas. Yay!

In fact, as I sit here, I am really looking forward to interacting with those trophies of God's mercy and grace, those like Judas, Hitler and Satan.

 

[Earburner]

The indwelling Spirit has given people new birth into Jesus body, who are making up His bride. These will rule and reign with Him in His upcoming 1,000 year kingdom.

After Jesus returns in flaming fire, what/who will the Eternally living, Immortal Saints, be ruling over?
So, there will be another "go at it", a second chance, of preaching the gospel AGAIN in this temporal world, among unsaved, sinful, mortal flesh people, who had taken the Mark of the beast??
Impossible!!!
I don't want any part of it!!!

Don't you know that the "Day" of God's present Age of His Grace is NOW? We are to receive the Gift of His Salvation, in this time that "IS AS A thousand years"??