Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[GodsGrace]

I know God in my spirit....” ME” isn’t biblical.

Spirit gives birth to spirit is...also looking to the cross does not make us Born Again of imperishable seed....if that’s how we were to be Born Of The Spirit...God would have said so.

If one looks to the cross and believes the cross...then their spirit must already be Born Again...otherwise they would only understand the cross from their own human understanding/ intellect.

You need the witness Gods Living Spirit ...bringing our spirit Alive in Christ before you could understand anything about Jesus and the cross.

spirit children understand God in their spirit because that’s what God is a Spirit and that’s how we communicate with him, His Spirit to our spirit....not by reading the story of the Bible.

Spirit children understand God in their spirit?

And WHRE is YOUR understanding?

1 John 4:7
7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:19-21
19We love, because He first loved us.
20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.


So, where is YOUR love Ritajanice??

 

[Ritajanice]

to a certain poster. I am not playing these games anymore.. It is obvious you do not know God or his character. Please put your Calvinist book down, open your bible and read. Open your mind, because it is seriously closed right now (I used to be the same way, so I know the symptoms)

We don’t need to read any Bible to know that we have been Born Of The Spirit.....it’s a mystery how God does it, but ,it’s the most powerful testifying to our spirit.....when the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....mind Blowing!!..

We need that Living Witness Gods Living Holy Spirit...to testify with our spirit that we are Gods child....spirit child..

 

[Ritajanice]

Spirit children understand God in their spirit?

Correct @GodsGrace we are Born Of The Spirit...our spirit is Born Again...how else would we know God?
quoting and reading scripture..doesn’t make your spirit Born Again I’m afraid.

Who leads you through scripture to bring it to your understanding in your spirit?

How can we worship God in spirit and truth.....without being Born Of The Spirit @GodsGrace ?

And WHRE is YOUR understanding?

1 John 4:7
7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:19-21
19We love, because He first loved us.

How do you know that he first loved us?

Just by reading the written word in your own understanding?

Or is there another way we know the depth of Gods love for his children?

20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.


So, where is YOUR love Ritajanice??

My Love is in Christ....if you think my preaching is unloving that’s on you @GodsGrace ....you should know by now that there is no condemnation for those in Christ, your manipulative emotional posts are just that, therefore void of Gods truth...you’re a finger pointer like another member.

We are being made into Jesus image, we are a work in progress..
You don’t need any quoting or reading of scripture to know that your spirit has been Born Again...did you read my last post..Jesus explains it well to Nicodemus the mystery of being Born Of The Spirit...by divine revelation.

You quoting Gods written word doesn’t make anyone’s spirit Born Again....and we don’t know the Love Of God, not until we are Born Again by His Living Spirit.

Do you know that God loves you in your heart/ spirit @GodsGrace ?

Or only by quoting and reading of his written word?

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh I feel the same way, I have not arrived yet. I am still learning. The hardest thing I aver had to do is tell myself those I trusted and loved and who I help up would never lead me astray, and I was right and convinced I was right. was a wrong attitude. I had to be broken of so many things. I am still being broken today.


Yes. He said this in Matt 26, Mark 14 and Luke 22 when he sat down for his last supper.

I am talking about John 6, and the conversation Jesus had with the people he fed the day before. who come looking for another handout.

Here maybe this will help. Give you context.

OK. I can go through it now and give you my thoughts.
It's MY THOUGHTS. I'm still working on this....

John 6: 22 On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone— 23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks— 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?”

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

I believe the above is metaphorical.
The food which endures to everlasting life.
Unlike the manna that did not endure...
Unlike food that is for the body and not for the spirit.

In this case Jesus is speaking of spiritual food which the spirit needs
just as much as the body needs physical food to live, so the spirit needs
spiritual food to live.

This food Jesus called the bread from heaven.

Then Jesus said whoever ate this bread would receive things, and told us what it meant

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst

Same as above.
Same as He told the woman at the well.
Jesus' water will quench thirst unlike water that we need to keep drinking continually.

1. Eating this food is coming to Jesus and believing in him
2. Whoever does will never hunger and never thirst.

Agreed.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

3. Easting this food is coming to him,
4. It is being given to Jesus (not the calvinist way)
5. It is seeing the son and believing
6. Whoever eats will never be cast out
7. whoever eats will never be lost
8. whoever eats will be raised on he last day (as apposed to being delivered to him)
9. whoever eats have eternal life

Amen!
Beautiful !

he continues

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

10. Eating this food is believing
11. This food is the bread which comes from heaven
12. Whoever eats has eternal life
13. Whoever eats will never die
14. Whoever eats will live forever.

OK,,,,this is where the conversation switches a little.
Now Jesus is making it more personal....He's using different language.
Now He's not talking about food but making a point of EATING it.
Jesus says: If anyone eats of this bread....
And the bread that I shall give IS MY FLESH....which He'll give for the life of the world.

He gave HIS FLESH at the cross.
The night before He called the bread He was holding HIS BODY that would be given up....and it was.

It's this relationship to the Last Supper and the Cross that caught my attention.
I can even hardly express it properly.

Getting a little upset. he turns on them because of their unbelief

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus says: MY FLESH IS FOOD INDEED.
MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

It doesn't sound metaphorical anymore.
He's saying HIS FLESH IF FOOD, and HIS BLOOD IS DRINK.
Check out John 6:53 --- it means to EAT....like when we eat food. (Strong's or Thayer's Greek lexicon).

15. eating this food is eating the flesh and blood
16. Eating this food is feeding on Christ
17. Eating this food is said to abide in Jesus
18, Whoever eats has eternal life
19. Whoever eats will be raised on the last day (as apposed to being delivered)
20. Whoever eats Abides in him, as long as he lives we will live and we live because of him
21. Whoever eats will live forever.

But eats what?
Jesus was talking about HIS BODY AND BLOOD.
It doesn't sound like He was talking about The Word anymore.

Why did some leave because it was a difficult teaching?
Because they understood that Jesus meant this literally !

Otherwise, why would they have abandoned Him?

Getting ths reaction he wanted by making these statements. He follows it up with the truth of everything he has been saying

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

22. The food is given by the spirit
23. The flesh (physical food they were looking for) profits them nothing. (which is why he told them to seek for food which endures to eternal life)
24. The food is the words that Jesus is speaking. they should have been coming to hear his words. not to look for another handout (food which perishes.

Peter acknowledges he understood

Agreed.

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

I hope as you look through these words, You study, Look at the passage to see what it really says, do not just take my word for it.

LOL
I never take anybody's word !
I like to understand everything on my own BUT within orthodoxy. (mainline).

Verse 68 is one of my favorites BTW.

As you can see. Taking food often does not fit
Why are people eating and drinking this food. yet still dying, and not assured they will be raised or have eternal life
and finally. He said if we eat it we will never die (in other words, we do not have to keep eating it because it endures forever as He said)

so why did the roman catholic church turned this into something it was never meant to be?

One more time

At the last supper. he said do this often
In John 6, He said do it once.

HUGE difference. I will stop here and let this sink in, then we will continue

I have copied the rest of this post. and will let you respond to this first. it will get to be to much to discuss

Interesting....
But He said to do this once?
How about when He said to do it in remembrance of Him every time we meet?

The Apostles had communion every time they met.

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct @GodsGrace we are Born Of The Spirit...our spirit is Born Again...how else would we know God?
quoting and reading scripture..doesn’t make your spirit Born Again I’m afraid.

Who leads you through scripture to bring it to your understanding in your spirit?

How can we worship God in spirit and truth.....without being Born Of The Spirit @GodsGrace ?


How do you know that he first loved us?

Just by reading the written word in your own understanding?

Or is there another way we know the depth of Gods love for his children?

You don’t need any quoting or reading of scripture to know that your spirit has been Born Again...did you read my last post..Jesus explains it well to Nicodemus the mystery of being Born Of The Spirit...by divine revelation.

You quoting Gods written word doesn’t make anyone’s spirit Born Again....and we don’t know the Love Of God, not until we are Born Again by His Living Spirit.

Do you know that God loves you in your heart/ spirit @GodsGrace ?

Or only by quoting and reading of his written word?

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It would be good for you to read up on what God expects from you.
Different persons feel different stuff in their spirit.

But it's God's word that counts.
And you do seem to post some of it.

But not the right verses.
Read up on the ones about love.

John 13:35
35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 

[Ritajanice]

It would be good for you to read up on what God expects from you.

It’s good that God chose me for his purpose and plan and also his vessel to speak through..I’m led by his Spirit.

Different persons feel different stuff in their spirit.

Different persons feel different stuff in their spirit isn’t biblical.

But it's God's word that counts.
And you do seem to post some of it.

I have Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit residing in my heart/ spirit.....whatever he witnesses to my spirit I always check it out with his penned word...if it’s not there it wasn’t from him.

But not the right verses.
Read up on the ones about love.

John 13:35
35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

You need to understand that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

We have a new heart and spirit within.....we are being made into Jesus image and we are a work in progress.

Preaching Gods word is not of the emotions, it’s by his Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s good that God chose me for his purpose and plan and also his vessel to speak through..I’m led by his Spirit.

Different persons feel different stuff in their spirit isn’t biblical.

I have Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit residing in my heart/ spirit.....whatever he witnesses to my spirit I always check it out with his penned word...if it’s not there it wasn’t from him.



You need to understand that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

We have a new heart and spirit within.....we are being made into Jesus image and we are a work in progress.

Preaching Gods word is not of the emotions, it’s by his Spirit.

Good for you Ritajanice.

But I have no time for this nonsense of yours.

 

[Ritajanice]

Good for you Ritajanice.

But I have no time for this nonsense of yours.

Then please prove my nonsense using scripture? thanks?

Same applies to the other poster.

Romans 8​

King James Version​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you wish to discuss reformed theology...

I mean, theological things, in general ~ or specifically ~ sure. And as you surmised, in that discussion ~ if we are to engage in such ~ I will enter into it from the reformed perspective. But even before that, before engaging in such, I think we should both agree to keep from any sort of "militancy," or ill-mannered argumentativeness. If we cannot ~ or the moment I sense that ~ I'll be out.

or are you just going to tell me I'm wrong?

If necessary, I will correct things you say. :) If you disagree, then that's fine, is it not? If necessary, we should be able to agree to disagree, right?

Why do you understand God's Word differently than all the rest of Christianity?

I don't. :) Now, if you were to change that question slightly and instead ask, "Why do you understand God's Word differently than a lot, and maybe most of the rest of western/American Christianity?", then I would... answer somewhat differently. :)

Maybe reformed theology is wrong??

Well, I'm open to that possibility. :) But the Reformation, begun by Martin Luther with the posting of his 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenburg, Germany in October of 1517, was based on returning Christianity to its Biblical roots from the corruptions of the day, some of which are still going on.

Give me a verse that states that God chooses who will be saved.

Okay, well, How about... several? :) I've cited all these previously in this thread, but will do so again (emphases added):

• "...those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." (Romans 8:30)
• "...though they (Jacob and Esau) were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls... it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (excerpts from Romans 9)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:3-4).
• "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2;8-10)
• "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you." (Jesus, to His disciples, John 15:16)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)
• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:1-2)

Otherwise this is all just cheap talk.

Really, all talk is cheap. But that doesn't mean what's being said is untrue. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good for you Ritajanice.

But I have no time for this nonsense of yours.

Nor I wonder, the patience. she will try your patience beyond belief..

 

[Ritajanice]

Nor I wonder, the patience. she will try your patience beyond belief..

Just quote scripture where I talk nonsense thanks as you agreed with Godsgrace...

Also my other questions I asked of you have gone unanswered I see?

Patience has got nothing to do with being tried...it’s because I 100% disagree with the majority of what you post....no problem...I don’t lose any patience over anything...I post what I believe to be God’s truth..

That is what I believe is trying your patience....my disagreeing with your preaching.

You will never get me under your control on believing what you believe....you’ve certainly tried hard enough imo....you come across as though woman are lower/ inferior to you,imo...I can assure you we ain’t!....
I have my belief you have yours....so let’s all just try to stick to the topic....rather than all the petty finger pointing....it’s just another way to silence a person ..using manipulative tactics....you do it all the time ....the other member isn’t far behind you......you need to grow out of that trait.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK. I can go through it now and give you my thoughts.
It's MY THOUGHTS. I'm still working on this....



I believe the above is metaphorical.
The food which endures to everlasting life.
Unlike the manna that did not endure...
Unlike food that is for the body and not for the spirit.

In this case Jesus is speaking of spiritual food which the spirit needs
just as much as the body needs physical food to live, so the spirit needs
spiritual food to live.

I think it is literal. But I think I see what your saying

Jesus is telling them not to work for food which perishes. food for the physical body, (they worked hard to cross the water and find him) but to work for food which will endure forever.. which he will give them - he will explain that this food is the spiritual food. or the cross.. or more literally. the words about the cross.. They need to gnaw and chew on those words to get it right, it was nto somethign they shouldk just glance over.

Same as above.
Same as He told the woman at the well.
Jesus' water will quench thirst unlike water that we need to keep drinking continually.

Yes, The living food..

Agreed.



Amen!
Beautiful !

Thank you

OK,,,,this is where the conversation switches a little.
Now Jesus is making it more personal....He's using different language.
Now He's not talking about food but making a point of EATING it.
Jesus says: If anyone eats of this bread....
And the bread that I shall give IS MY FLESH....which He'll give for the life of the world.

He gave HIS FLESH at the cross.
The night before He called the bread He was holding HIS BODY that would be given up....and it was.

It's this relationship to the Last Supper and the Cross that caught my attention.
I can even hardly express it properly.

But my point is is it the same food.

Does the two conversations speak of the same, and are they related?

My contention is they are not.

Jesus says: MY FLESH IS FOOD INDEED.
MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

It doesn't sound metaphorical anymore.
He's saying HIS FLESH IF FOOD, and HIS BLOOD IS DRINK.
Check out John 6:53 --- it means to EAT....like when we eat food. (Strong's or Thayer's Greek lexicon).

Again, He is saying this for a reason. It is still metaphorical. it is still the same food. As we see. It still gives the one who eats the same items (they will never die, they will live forever. and be raised the last day This is the point I was trying to make.

But eats what?
Jesus was talking about HIS BODY AND BLOOD.
It doesn't sound like He was talking about The Word anymore.

Or was he.

The word they needed to hear was that he was going to die for them. But they did not believe they needed saved, so they would not believe.

I believe Jesus went here because he wanted to say something that would push them away. and it worked. Who stated, and who left?

Why did some leave because it was a difficult teaching?

No. Because they did nto believe, and Jesus forced them to hear.. They did nto believe up to that point. he told them that earlier..

Because they understood that Jesus meant this literally !

Yes, They got it wrong. just like the roman catholic church Got it wrong.

Jesus was still speaking of the spiritual food which they could eat and not die..

Otherwise, why would they have abandoned Him?

He answered this already

vs 36: But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them,“Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him

he said in fact. it is not his physical flesh and blood. it is the words which Give life. But they will not hear because they do not believe

Agreed.


LOL
I never take anybody's word !
I like to understand everything on my own BUT within orthodoxy. (mainline).

But we must be careful. Alot of so called orthodoxy is in error also.

Verse 68 is one of my favorites BTW.


Interesting....
But He said to do this once?
How about when He said to do it in remembrance of Him every time we meet?

You just answered my question

Here he said do it and you will recieve all these things (ie do it once)

there he said do it often. and non of the things he spoke of in John 6 are even promised..

The Apostles had communion every time they met.

Yes. Communion.

John 6 in my view is not communion. It is chewing on the gospel. and receiving the gospel in faith. and being given everything jesus said would be given to all who eat (believe)

Thats what I am trying to show you

 

[GodsGrace]

I mean, theological things, in general ~ or specifically ~ sure. And as you surmised, in that discussion ~ if we are to engage in such ~ I will enter into it from the reformed perspective. But even before that, before engaging in such, I think we should both agree to keep from any sort of "militancy," or ill-mannered argumentativeness. If we cannot ~ or the moment I sense that ~ I'll be out.

I'm good with this.
We're discussing here,,,,and there are some reading along that can get both sides of the story.

I have to say that most reformed I've interacted with are very unpleasant and this does not make for good conversation.
I did meet up with one guy who's a 1689 Confessional Baptist....very easy to speak to and interesting "debate" could be had.

So, yes. I agree with you.

If necessary, I will correct things you say. :) If you disagree, then that's fine, is it not? If necessary, we should be able to agree to disagree, right?

Of course. This is probably how it'll end up.
Talk is good.
I doubt anyone's mind will be changed.

I don't. :) Now, if you were to change that question slightly and instead ask, "Why do you understand God's Word differently than a lot, and maybe most of the rest of western/American Christianity?", then I would... answer somewhat differently. :)

But WHICH DENOMINATION would agree with the reformed that is not reformed?
I can't think of any.

Well, I'm open to that possibility. :) But the Reformation, begun by Martin Luther with the posting of his 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenburg, Germany in October of 1517, was based on returning Christianity to its Biblical roots from the corruptions of the day, some of which are still going on.

I believe the reformation was necessary.
I also believe it caused a mess.

Okay, well, How about... several? :) I've cited all these previously in this thread, but will do so again (emphases added):

• "...those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." (Romans 8:30)
• "...though they (Jacob and Esau) were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls... it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (excerpts from Romans 9)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:3-4).
• "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2;8-10)
• "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you." (Jesus, to His disciples, John 15:16)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)
• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:1-2)

Really, all talk is cheap. But that doesn't mean what's being said is untrue. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Whoa!
Could you pick out a couple?
I find Romans 9 to be very complicated and misunderstood and I don't feel I'm very well versed in chapters 9-11: however, I'm willing.
There's too much up there to take on in one post.

I like to call it carpet bombing....

 

[PinSeeker]

God made a covenant with a specific group. In that covenant he made promises to them. He called it an eternal covenant.

Agreed. Absolutely agreed. But the difference between us, really, Eternal Grateful, is who you and I understand that "specific group" to actually be. I say you suppose... Well, I won't put words into your mouth. It seems obvious to me, but I'll let you answer this for yourself: Who is that "specific group," Eternally Grateful? What group of people actually make up that "specific group"? Now, if you say "Jews, those of Israel," I would wholeheartely agree, but then the question is, "Who really are true Jews of God?" I've spoken to this at least a couple of times before (so yet again we're going back over what we've already discussed), citing what Paul says in Romans 2:28-29, as you'll probably remember ~ "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

If he will not keep his promise to them, I have no faith he would keep it with me

Ah, well, I agree, but I would submit to you, Eternally Grateful ~ and this is really my answer to the question I asked you to answer above ~ that God's promises to "them" ARE His promises to you and me also.

And I would say this, that if you were to doubt your faith, you would actually be doubting God Himself.

But how can you say he loves perfectly when he hates most of his creation? (Since the gate is narrow and few there are who enter in)

Ah, now this is a great question. I can elaborate on this if you want, but for now I would simply say that hate is not the opposite of love; 'love' and 'hate' are not antonyms of each other.

Yes, He loved us, But he did not just love us, he loved the world (john 3) and he made propitiation not just for us, but for the world (1 John 2:2)

Well, as I have said ~ in a little different way, but I'll speak to exactly what you say here... You and I agree that not everyone will be saved; some will not be with Jesus in the New Heaven and New Earth, but rather... somewhere else... Neither one of us believes in universalism, that everyone will be saved. So we have to differentiate ~ somehow ~ between His making propitiation for us (those who are and will be saved) and His making propitiation for the world... differentiate between the senses of the two:

• The former, "propitiation for us" (Christians), is easy enough; we know that we are and will be saved and where we will be in the age to come. So the Propitiation ~ I'm capitalizing that because Jesus is the Propitiation for our sin (1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10) ~ is effectual for us.
• The latter, "propitiation for the world" (all people), should also be easy enough; this Propitiation is sufficient for everyone, and that salvation is open to all, everyone is... eligible.

As I pointed out before, though, Jesus Himself said, "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). And He also said to His disciples (and to all Christians by extension), "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16).

Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed. Absolutely agreed. But the difference between us, really, Eternal Grateful, is who you and I understand that "specific group" to actually be.

I agree, and that was my point

I say you suppose... Well, I won't put words into your mouth. It seems obvious to me, but I'll let you answer this for yourself: Who is that "specific group," Eternally Grateful? What group of people actually make up that "specific group"? Now, if you say "Jews, those of Israel," I would wholeheartely agree, but then the question is, "Who really are true Jews of God?" I've spoken to this at least a couple of times before (so yet again we're going back over what we've already discussed), citing what Paul says in Romans 2:28-29, as you'll probably remember ~ "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

And here is where we get off track.
If you read Gen 12, 15 and 17, You will see who these people are. They are the physical offspring of Abraham, through Isaac and later jacob, Also known as the 12 tribes of isreal.

and please note. this promise was not that they would all be saved, they any of them would get to heaven, or that they got an automatic in, This is the argument they were making, and the argument Paul was refuting in Romans 9 - 11..

Ah, well, I agree, but I would submit to you, Eternally Grateful ~ and this is really my answer to the question I asked you to answer above ~ that God's promises to "them" ARE His promises to you and me also.

God did not promise you a plot of land in the middle east my friend.

And I would say this, that if you were to doubt your faith, you would actually be doubting God Himself.

I do not doubt God. I bel;ieve he keeps his promises, which is why i reject replacement theology.

Ah, now this is a great question. I can elaborate on this if you want, but for now I would simply say that hate is not the opposite of love; 'love' and 'hate' are not antonyms of each other.


Well, as I have said ~ in a little different way, but I'll speak to exactly what you say here... You and I agree that not everyone will be saved; some will not be with Jesus in the New Heaven and New Earth, but rather... somewhere else... Neither one of us believes in universalism, that everyone will be saved. So we have to differentiate ~ somehow ~ between His making propitiation for us (those who are and will be saved) and His making propitiation for the world... differentiate between the senses of the two:

• The former, "propitiation for us" (Christians), is easy enough; we know that we are and will be saved and where we will be in the age to come. So the Propitiation ~ I'm capitalizing that because Jesus is the Propitiation for our sin (1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10) ~ is effectual for us.
• The latter, "propitiation for the world" (all people), should also be easy enough; this Propitiation is sufficient for everyone, and that salvation is open to all, everyone is... eligible.

As I pointed out before, though, Jesus Himself said, "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). And He also said to His disciples (and to all Christians by extension), "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16).

Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.

again, Jesus gave us the answer. the one thing that seperates the two groups.

John 3:
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

there is the ONLY thing that seperates us

1. We all have sinned and fall short
2. We all deserve hell
3. We all are guilty
4. We all have had our sin debt paid by Jesus on the cross
5. One of us received him in faith, and are no longer condemned
6. the other has rejected him in unbelief, and for this sin of unbelief, will remain condemned.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm good with this.

Good. I guess we'll see how it plays out, yes? :)

I have to say that most reformed I've interacted with are very unpleasant and this does not make for good conversation.

Hmmm... well maybe that's because of where you've interacted with them. Message boards like this one are well-intentioned, but the behaviors you see out of posters, reformed or otherwise, very often can bring out... well, I won't say the worst, but poorness of character... in people. :) And that's not limited to certain theological views... :) ...but you're right, does not make for good conversation at all.

I doubt anyone's mind will be changed.

Probably not, but God works in mysterious ways... :)

But WHICH DENOMINATION would agree with the reformed that is not reformed? I can't think of any.

Sorry, I don't even understand the question...

I believe the reformation was necessary. I also believe it caused a mess.

I agree on both counts. But God is sovereign over everything. Maybe He had a much higher purpose in it...? :)

Could you pick out a couple?

I... think I did... I did underline (emphasize) specific thing in there...

I find Romans 9 to be very complicated and misunderstood and I don't feel I'm very well versed in chapters 9-11: however, I'm willing.
There's too much up there to take on in one post.

I find this statement of yours just dripping with humility, which... is just awesome. Really. I mean, it's just so cool. Thank you. Yes, if you want to break it apart and address it more bite-sized pieces, I'm very open to doing so.

I like to call it carpet bombing....

LOL! That's not such an inaccurate description, I guess. Didn't mean to do that... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Romans 8:33-39​

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is Godthat justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather*, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who alsomaketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, orperil, or sword?
36 As it is written*, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors throughhim that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels,nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus ourLord.

Romans 9​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[PinSeeker]

I agree, and that was my point

Well, it's been my point a couple of times, as I said.

And here is where we get off track.

Sure, off the same track. That's what I've been saying.

If you read Gen 12, 15 and 17...

You mean as if I haven't (many times)? :)

You will see who these people are. They are the physical offspring of Abraham, through Isaac and later Jacob, Also known as the 12 tribes of isreal.

Well, I agree... Lesser Israel. But certainly not "lesser" in the sense of "not as good"... :) Rather a forerunner and indication of the fuller manifestation to come... lesser in that sense. As you well know, I'm sure ~ at least because I've pointed this out more than once in this very thread ~ Paul says, "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." (Romans 9:6-8) You and I are included in Abraham's offspring, Eternally Grateful. All those in Christ ~ Paul has just said, at that point in Romans 9, that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1), and "... all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God" (Romans 8:14). You say what you say about Paul's context in Romans 9, but he did not change his context ~ at all ~ from Romans 8 to Romans 9.

God did not promise you a plot of land in the middle east my friend.

Ultimately speaking, this was never His promise ~ is greater promise ~ to anyone. The lesser points to the greater. Yes, in the Old Testament, the Promised Land is... that sliver of land on the east coast of the Mediterranean. And, when the Israelites entered into the Promised Land, that was the first ~ the lesser ~ fulfillment. But this pointed to the greater Promised Land, Greater Israel, which is the whole earth, and one day, we all will enter into it... the New Heaven and New Earth. And God's promises are absolutely still in effect and will be brought to full fruition. Just as Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5).

I do not doubt God.

Great! Neither do I.

I believe He keeps his promises...

As do I; we are repeating ourselves again...

...I reject replacement theology.

As do I. The Bible is about inclusion, Eternally Grateful. You may remember Hebrews 1:1-2... "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." All believers, regardless of ethnicity, are included in "our fathers" and "us" in this passage. And we all have the same faith, from Abraham on up, as we clearly see in the entirety of Hebrews 11. And in Hebrews 12:2, we see that Jesus is "the author and perfecter of our faith."

again, Jesus gave us the answer. the one thing that seperates the two groups.

John 3:
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

there is the ONLY thing that seperates us

1. We all have sinned and fall short
2. We all deserve hell
3. We all are guilty
4. We all have had our sin debt paid by Jesus on the cross
5. One of us received him in faith, and are no longer condemned
6. the other has rejected him in unbelief, and for this sin of unbelief, will remain condemned.

This separation, Eternally Grateful, is not referring to ethnic groups being separated from each other, but rather humanity's separation from God.

1. Yes, we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).
2. We all deserve hell.
3. We are all guilty of sin.
4. We have all ~ well, all of us who are in Christ; "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1) ~ had our sin debt paid by Jesus on the cross. This cannot be true of the world, else everyone would be saved, which we agree is not the case. Condemnation remains for those not in Christ Jesus. Jesus's atonement for sin is limited in this sense. In this way, Jesus's work on the cross is 100 percent effective. Again, Jesus says not that "All that come to me the Father gives me," but rather the other way around, that "All that the Father gives me will come to me..." (John 6:37). The Father does not give the world to Jesus, but only His elect, those He foreknew (foreloved), those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world.

Now, if you are referring to yourself in number five, I would say, "both" rather than "one." If, however, you are referring to ethnic Jews, I would say to that "not only ethnic Jews, but also Gentiles." Either way, you kind of have to see the inclusion ~ not "replacement" of any kind ~ in that.

And if you are referring to me in number six, I would... well, first I would remember that my identity is in Christ... and sigh... :) ...and then I would say "neither of us" rather than "the other." If, however, you are referring to Gentiles, then that would render your statement senseless, because among other things I sense you to be a Gentile also. No believer, of course, has ~ or will ~ reject Him in unbelief (born again Christians, believers, "by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" ~ 1 Peter 1:5) and will never be condemned (again, "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" ~ Romans 8:1)

I appreciate your passion, though, Eternally Grateful. Really, I do, and I commend you for it. But you seem to get carried away with it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, I agree... Lesser Israel. But certainly not "lesser" in the sense of "not as good"... :) Rather a forerunner and indication of the fuller manifestation to come... lesser in that sense. As you well know, I'm sure ~ at least because I've pointed this out more than once in this very thread ~ Paul says, "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." (Romans 9:6-8) You and I are included in Abraham's offspring, Eternally Grateful. All those in Christ ~ Paul has just said, at that point in Romans 9, that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1), and "... all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God" (Romans 8:14). You say what you say about Paul's context in Romans 9, but he did not change his context ~ at all ~ from Romans 8 to Romans 9.

I thought we were done?

God made specific promises in Genesis, which you agreed with.

Now you want to add to that promise? Sorry I can not do this.

We are part of the original covenant (in you shall ALL the nations of the world be blessed)

I am of those nations that are blessed because of the savior that came through the seed of Abraham. (not of Israel) because the promise (to Israel) was NEVER about salvation If it was (As Israel claimed) then all jews would be saved.. That was an argument Paul destroyed in Romans 9

Actually he did change his context. romans 9 - 11 is like a cut screen He finished his point in chapter 8 about the roman road.

he then spends three chapters to discuss the israel issue

He them in chapter 12 starts a new topic.

But again, I though we were done?

 

[PinSeeker]

I thought we were done?

Me, too, but you replied anyway, so, I did. :)

God made specific promises in Genesis, which you agreed with.

Yes. But His promises have a lesser and a greater fulfillment. The lesser points to the greater, and the greater includes ~ not "replaces" ~ the lesser.

Now you want to add to that promise?

No. It always was and always will be what it is.

Sorry I can not do this.

Okay, well yeah, don't. Me, either. :)

We are part of the original covenant (in you shall ALL the nations of the world be blessed)

Absolutely.

I am of those nations that are blessed because of the savior that came through the seed of Abraham...

Absolutely. Although, you're not a nation, EG. God promised Abraham that He would make him the father of a multitude of nations, and you are part of one of those nations, but you yourself are not a nation. And again, as Paul says, not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'through Isaac shall (Abraham's) offspring be named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." The same is true of me. So again, in the lesser sense, I agree with you, but there is indeed a greater sense, an ultimate sense, in which ethnicity is not part of the equation; people of all ethnicities across all times are included. Both were always in effect, but the former, the lesser, pointed to ~ foreshadowed ~ the greater. As Paul says to the Gentile Christians in Galatia, a Roman province (and to us by extension):

"Now before faith came..." ~ this is before he or any of his addressees were actually given faith ~ "...we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came..." ~ until we received Christ ~ "...in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:23-29).

. (not of Israel) because the promise (to Israel) was NEVER about salvation If it was (As Israel claimed) then all jews would be saved.. That was an argument Paul destroyed in Romans 9

If you're talking about ethnic Jews, I absolutely agree, and have said this many, many times. Eternally Grateful, who is actually Israel? Who did God rename Israel? You remember, I'm sure. Genesis 32:28... Jacob, of course. Our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We ~ we. together, all of us in Christ ~ are Israel.

Actually he did change his context. romans 9 - 11 is like a cut screen He finished his point in chapter 8 about the roman road. He then spends three chapters to discuss the israel issue

Ah, well, I... somewhat... agree. :) In the first seven chapters, he gives us the bad news (to put it mildly). He sprinkles in a bit of the good news to fully come in Chapter 8, but overall in Romans 1-7 he tells us very systematically how bad things really are (were, actually):

• from being without excuse (Romans 1)
• to being in need of repentance, (Romans 2)
• to no one in and of themselves being righteous but falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3)
• to death spreading to all men because all sinned in Adam and being slaves of unrighteousness (Romans 5)
• to finally using himself as an example of us all in that we still do what we now know not to do and don't do what we now know we should do because of the sin within us, and that we are therefore wretched in our bodies of death (Romans 7),

In chapter 8, he finally floods in, emphatically, the good news ~ which is made all the better because now we know how utterly bad off we really were, and even that we are still fully undeserving ~ that there is now no condemnation for us because we are in Christ Jesus, that we have been set free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death, that we are children of God, and heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ, that for us God works all things together for good, that He has predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son and that we will ultimately be glorified. and that He will graciously give us all things, and that nothing, absolutely nothing, can separate us from the love of Christ, that nothing, absolutely nothing, can ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is not just good news, but absolutely unbelievably, unfathomably good news, as I'm sure you will agree.

And in Romans 9-11, he does shift a bit, but it is still in light of this unimaginably great news of Romans 8. This is a personal letter that he's writing, so he does not change his context. Rather, he zooms in and goes into further detail about who all the people are who are in Christ are, God's elect, and who Israel really consists of: God's vessels of mercy, which include all those whom God has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9:24). In chapter 10, Paul tells us that we are to take the Gospel to all, because we can't know who God's elect actually are, and that upon their hearing, God will draw His own to Him. I talked about the outward call before as opposed to the inward call; God issues His outward call through us in this way, through evangelism, and of all those who hear, He will issue His inward call by His Spirit to those who actually are among His elect. So he gives us the great privilege of participating in His building of His House, the Israel of God. And finally in Romans 11, he tells us that there is a remnant, chosen by grace (Romans 11:5), that we believing Gentiles are grafted into His true Israel (Romans 11:17), that He will re-graft into His true Israel the natural branches previously broken off (Romans 11:24), and sums it all up by saying, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26).

He them in chapter 12 starts a new topic.

Not really a new topic... He tells us how we all, all of us in Christ, in view of what God has done for us, should live.

But again, I though we were done?

Right, well you're the one who kept it going. I get what you're trying to do, though... <chuckle>

Grace and peace to you.