Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Eternally Grateful]

His whole context in Romans 9-11 is God's elect,

The whole concept is found in the first 6 verses

9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my [a]countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

​

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.

Imagine thequestions going one. God chose Israel as a nation. Gave them the law. Gave them the Adoption. and the covenants, Yet they crucified Christ and rejected him.

did God make a mistaske chosing them?

He spends the next three chapters explaining some of the false ideas jews had (they wre chosen based on how Good the fathers were. no God chose them before they were born

The were chosen because they are sons of abraham,. No. Not all israel is Israel.

I can go on and on, but in the end, even Paul said God is not done yet. ALL Israel will be saved.. (Again, talking about the nation not individual people.

God's purpose of election of some to His ~ His, not our ~ Israel, the Israel of God, which, if you remember from Romans 2:28-29, he said, "...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." And, in Romans 9:6, Paul says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring..." So, God's Israel is not the Israel we know, which consists of only ethnic Jews. The Israel of God consists of His elect, which includes people of all ethnicities. as Paul goes on to say in Romans 11:25-26, "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

You just made my point for me, OT prophets speak of a time, when God uses the suffering of the hebrew people to bring them to repentance. Called the time of Jacobs trouble.

its not about Gentile believers. For as he said in th elater part of 9 and chapter 10. it was prophesied a nation not Israel would be given these things.. so even that was not at odds. it was prophesied..

Eternally Grateful, you are a great brother in Christ, and in no way a "lesser Christian" than I, and I have the greatest of respect for you, but in this you are wrong. You, like Arminius, are inadvertently taking Paul out of context.

Please show me how. And please. stop bringing Arminius into our conversation. Every time you do this, i assume you are reading me through Calvin eyes. and not hearing a word I am saying.. your trying so hard to put me and Arminius in the same mold. and i reject Arminius doctrine as much as i reject Calvin's doctrine. so it is a great offence to me when you do this.. Please show me some respect your listening to me, not trying to put me in a column..

Grace and peace to you.

Absolutely. And given to all. God's justice is holy and perfect, as are all His attributes.

Yes, So is his grace and mercy

Right; you have to be predestined, called, and justified, first ~ justified despite the sin in us; "the free gift following many trespasses brought justification" (Romans 5:16) ~ which is the case... we are justified by God, and the very reason is that we are place in Christ; His righteousness is imputed to us by God through the work of His Spirit. And as Paul says in Romans 8:30, "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." You and I are not glorified yet, but it is absolutely certain that we will be.

Justification is actually a legal term.

Again, we are justified by faith.. so faith MUST precede regeneration

I would say it's part of the same event. But okay, immediately thereafter. :) That does nothing to disprove my point either way.

Actually it does when you claim faith must come after regeneration. or do you believe different? Am i misreading you? if so forgive me

Right, which is the gift of God, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8), and empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11). Not that it is the intention of anyone here, but we cannot skirt around this.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Grace is offered to all. Otherwise God is the direct opposite of the loving God he claims to be. Sorry, but this is how I see it

Given to all, commonly. Sure, everyone alive, for now, lives under and in His grace, whether they acknowledge it or not. No one is suggesting otherwise. But, not all are saved, which is a particular grace given by God only to His elect.

Yes, thats why we love.

Well, you say this, but in effect, your whole position is that God loves because we first loved Him, which is exactly opposite what John says in 1 John 4:19.

Why would he demand we do what he himself will not do

Ah, now to this, I would say that God loves all His creation, so therefore all men, male and female, but some He loves in a particular way, a sovereign, distinguishing way ~ as a father loves his own children ~ rather than a general, common-to-all, benevolent way ~ as any father would love all the children of the world.

...I am not sure what your getting at here

Hmmm.... :)

He loved the whole world...

Yes, but that does not mean everyone is included in His elect. As Paul says:

"Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? ...God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."​

. so much he died for them...

His atonement was sufficient for all, so in this way yes, He died for all. But, according to His purpose of election, His sacrifice is only effectual for "vessels of mercy," thus of us "whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles," so in this way, He died for only those given to Him by the Father, and will lose not one.

...whoever in that world believes, they will never perish and they will live forever (having been born again)

Right, and those who believe are those who have been called by God, drawn by God Himself to call on Him. The 'whosoever' of John 3:16 and the 'everyone' of Romans 10:13 are those whom, as I said, Joel (2:32) speaks of:

"...everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."​

This 'everyone' that Joel speaks of ~ and John and Paul after him ~ is not a general 'everyone,' but rather everyone whom the LORD calls.

Grace and peace to you, EG.

 

[Ritajanice]

I can go on and on, but in the end, even Paul said God is not done yet. ALL Israel will be saved.. (Again, talking about the nation not individual people.

What has been saved inside of us EG?

And how was it saved?

Individual people are saved today...the question is...what inside of us has been saved from eternal damnation?

What must be Born Again before we are saved from eternal damnation?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Given to all, commonly. Sure, everyone alive, for now, lives under and in His grace, whether they acknowledge it or not. No one is suggesting otherwise. But, not all are saved, which is a particular grace given by God only to His elect.

Grace is offered.

It is through faith that it is received. Its not a different kind of Grace, it is the same grace offered to all.

Well, you say this, but in effect, your whole position is that God loves because we first loved Him, which is exactly opposite what John says in 1 John 4:19.

lol. where do you get this? Did The tax collector fall on his knees and cry out to God because he loved God,. or because he feared god,. and understood his situation?

This is what I mean about reading doctrinally and not listening to what the other is saying, You should ASK me if I believe something, Not tell me what I believe.

and by the way, Your wrong, That is not my position at all.. I reject that position.

h, now to this, I would say that God loves all His creation, so therefore all men, male and female, but some He loves in a particular way, a sovereign, distinguishing way ~ as a father loves his own children ~ rather than a general, common-to-all, benevolent way ~ as any father would love all the children of the world.


Hmmm.... :)


Yes, but that does not mean everyone is included in His elect. As Paul says:

"Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? ...God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."​

His atonement was sufficient for all, so in this way yes, He died for all. But, according to His purpose of election, His sacrifice is only effectual for "vessels of mercy," thus of us "whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles," so in this way, He died for only those given to Him by the Father, and will lose not one.

this makes no sense, I am sorry

John 3 makes it clear. as Does paul in romans 1 and 2. even in romans 10.

We are saved by Grace, through faith. Jesus was lifted on the pole. so that all who see and believe will be born again.

Your trying to make things difficult its simple. Paul called it the simplicity in christ. if you have to go out of your way to make things appear as they should. it is probably not true.

Right, and those who believe are those who have been called by God, drawn by God Himself to call on Him. The 'whosoever' of John 3:16 and the 'everyone' of Romans 10:13 are those whom, as I said, Joel (2:32) speaks of:

"...everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."​

This 'everyone' that Joel speaks of ~ and John and Paul after him ~ is not a general 'everyone,' but rather everyone whom the LORD calls.

Grace and peace to you, EG.

Yes, Everyone who calls. everyone who believes

But he died for every0one (whether they believed or not) his grace is sufficient to save everyone. But as he himself sai

He who believes is not condemned

he who does not believe is condemned already

Grace is there for both. But only one groups recieved it.

As john said, but as many as have received him to THEM gave he the right to become children (adopted) even to those who believe.

 

[Ritajanice]

Grace is offered.

It is through faith that it is received. Its not a different kind of Grace, it is the same grace offered to all.

We must be Born Again...so show us all where God says all will be Born Of The Spirit.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that you chose to be Born Of The Spirit.....?

We are Born Of God’s seed according to HIS grace and mercy......not according to it being offered..that’s not biblical.

We are Born Again by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit......

Show us using scripture how you chose to be Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever?

The seed liveth and abideth forever where in us... @Eternally Grateful ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What has been saved inside of us EG?

And how was it saved?

Individual people are saved today...the question is...what inside of us has been saved from eternal damnation?

What must be Born Again before we are saved from eternal damnation?

Can someone help poor Rita out here.

I guess she thinks that something other than myself will enter heaven, or be cast into outer darkness.. That something magical being which is not me is inside myself. that gets saved?

I have tried to explain to her a few times. But she either does not hear. or just does not read my posts..and I am getting a little sick of answering, then being told I did not answer

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We must be Born Again...so show us all where God says all will be Born Of The Spirit.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that you chose to be Born Of The Spirit.....?

We are Born Of God’s seed according to HIS grace and mercy......not according to it being offered..that’s not biblical.

We are Born Again by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit......

Show us using scripture how you chose to be Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever?

The seed liveth and abideth forever where in us... @Eternally Grateful ?

again, can someone answer poor rita here.

once again she is bearing false witness against me saying I said something I have never said or even hinted at.

I am not sure why she refuses to read all of John 3. and just read the word what being born again means, and how. But not when it takes place and what we must do to recieve it..

maybe she will listen to some others?

 

[Ritajanice]

Can someone help poor Rita out here.

I guiess she thinks that something other than myself will enter heaven, or be cast into outer darkness.. That something magical being which is not me is inside myself. that gets saved?

Something inside you must be Born Again otherwise you aren’t saved?

What is it?

What in us is Born Again of imperishable seed?

You have never answered this question?

I have tried to explain to her a few times. But she either does not hear. or just does not read my posts..

You have never explained what is Born Again inside of us.

The phrase you once used was “ ME” so what is The me that has been Born Again?

 

[Ritajanice]

again, can someone answer poor rita here.

once again she is bearing false witness against me saying I said something I have never said or even hinted at.

I am not sure why she refuses to read all of John 3. and just read the word what being born again means, and how. But not when it takes place and what we must do to recieve it..

You do nothing to receive divine revelation ...it’s an act of God and nowhere in scripture does God say you receive the spirit birth.....you never know when the spirit will birth our spirit.....for he is like the wind you can’t see the Spirit and you can’t see him birthing our spirit into his.

We are Born Again of imperishable seed.....what in us has been Born Again of imperishable seed and how would we know this?

Looking to the cross and believing what?

What are you believing about the cross?

How do you know that Jesus died and was resurrected?

How would you know that God exists...please answer the questions?

You fire plenty of questions at me.

maybe she will listen to some others?

I only listen to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Something inside you must be Born Again otherwise you aren’t saved?

What is it?

What in us is Born Again of imperishable seed?

Is it against the forum rules to keep slandering someone as much as this girl slanders me?

Rita, I SAID MANY TIMES I WAS BORN AGAIN>

I will not say it again, If you disagree that's fine, BUT IF YOU SAY ONE MORE TIME I HAVE NEVER ANSWERED YOU> I WILL REPOR YOU FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS LIE

You have never answered this question?

You have never explained what is Born Again inside of us.

The phrase you once used was “ ME” so what is The me that has been Born Again?

1. Thank you. You jus tproved I actually have answered you before. so you proved your own lie against me

2. If you do not understand what I consist of,. or what YOU consist of. then I can not help you.

You will go to heaven (if YOU are saved), YOU will go to hell, (if YOU are not saved.)

get out of this magical thing that you think you understand that no one else does.. All YOU do is continually hurt yourself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are Born Again of imperishable seed.....

AMEN, now tell us WHEN Jesus said this would happen>

what in us has been Born Again of imperishable seed and how would we know this?

I WAS BORN OF IMPERISHABVLE SEED

Looking to the cross and believing what?

You tell me, Jesus is the one who said whoever looked to the cross would never die and has eternal life

What are you believing about the cross?

How do you know that Jesus died and was resurrected?

How would you know that God exists...please answer the questions?

You fire plenty of questions at me.

I only listen to the Holy Spirit.

moving on. same old same old. I guess you think this will prove once and for all your right.

get a clue why don't you.. I have answered these I will not play youir silly game anymore.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well sure. :) We all do. :)


Yes, there is grace that is common to all, and in that sense, common grace. But the grace of His mercy, His compassion, His salvation He only gives to some. Yes, as Paul says in Romans 11:5, "at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." Those who are chosen in this way by God are given a particular grace, particular to them, the grace of salvation.


Well, sure, As Paul says in Romans 1:19-20, "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made."

So yes, all have the same opportunity. But some, as Paul says, "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Some "(become) futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they (become) fools, and exchange the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God (gives) them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator... For this reason God (gives) them up to dishonorable passions..."


Ah, well I most wholeheartedly agree, but regarding Christians, whom John is addressing in his three epistles, he says, "We love because God first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Really, those who believe what Jacobus Arminius proposed centuries ago ~ and, as I said, Pelagius did centuries before Arminius ~ inadvertently make God's love out, as Pelagius and Arminius did, to be too small... not nearly as loving as He is. As Isaiah (55:8-9) says:

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts."​

God loves us even though we are dead in our sin and cannot... will not... love Him... He calls us to Himself even though our full inclination is against Him. This is how great, how magnificent, His love is. Though we do not deserve it ~ and even fully deserve the opposite ~ He loves us anyway. And, again, as John says, "We love because God first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.

Typical reformed thinker.
Misreads every verse because your entire concept of God is incorrect.

God is:
LOVING
MERCIFUL
JUST

In reformed theology God is:
ULOVING
UNMERCIFUL
UNJUST

Romans 11:1-6
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Verse 1: God is not rejecting Israel....His people, the people to whom He revealed Himself. Paul himself is of the tribe of Benjamin...a real Israeslite.

Verse 2 - 4: God still had 7,000 who didn't quit. He had a remnant. There will always be a remnant, as even today....those who will be loyal to the finish.

Verse 5: The remnant is holding on tight....because they're convinced of God's grace in choosing them FOR A PURPOSE.
It's always through grace and not the works OF THE LAW.


God does choose: FOR PURPOSE....always a how or a why....NEVER A WHO. (except for Jesus and Mary and Judas).

As to Romans 1:19-21....you have it so off I can hardly address it.
Maybe you should just plainly read the NT with an open mind and not by listening to the teachings OF A MAN...
John Calvin.

 

[Ritajanice]

Is it against the forum rules to keep slandering someone as much as this girl slanders me?

Rita, I SAID MANY TIMES I WAS BORN AGAIN>

I will not say it again, If you disagree that's fine, BUT IF YOU SAY ONE MORE TIME I HAVE NEVER ANSWERED YOU> I WILL REPOR YOU FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS LIE.

I asked you what in us has been Born Again....you once said ME is Born Again who is ME and what does me mean?

I have not slandered you..I have asked you what has been Born Again inside of us..I still wait for an answer?

1. Thank you. You jus tproved I actually have answered you before. so you proved your own lie against me

2. If you do not understand what I consist of,. or what YOU consist of. then I can not help you.

You said me once....who is me that has been Born Again?

You will go to heaven (if YOU are saved), YOU will go to hell, (if YOU are not saved.)

You can only go to heaven if one is Born Again of imperishable seed....you keep putting the cart before the horse.

We are Born Again then saved from eternal damnation....and not before.

get out of this magical thing that you think you understand that no one else does.. All YOU do is continually hurt yourself.

Please explain what this magi+al thing is?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I asked you what in us has been Born Again....you once said ME is Born Again who is ME and what does me mean?

I have not slandered you..I have asked you what has been Born Again inside of us..I still wait for an answer?

You said me once....who is me that has been Born Again?

You can only go to heaven if one is Born Again of imperishable seed....you keep putting the cart before the horse.

We are Born Again then saved from eternal damnation....and not before.

Please explain what this magi+al thing is?

Good day

I refuse to play your childish game.

 

[Ritajanice]

AMEN, now tell us WHEN Jesus said this would happen>

You do not have to read a Bible to be Born Of The Spirit...there are no directions to becoming Born Again..it’s by divine revelation.....not by reading directions from the Bible.

I WAS BORN OF IMPERISHABVLE SEED

You tell me, Jesus is the one who said whoever looked to the cross would never die and has eternal life

Looking to the cross has nothing to do with being Born Of The Spirit...that can only be done by the Living Spirit Of God, which is by divine revelation/ the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children?

moving on. same old same old. I guess you think this will prove once and for all your right.

get a clue why don't you.. I have answered these I will not play youir silly game anymore.

It’s not about me being right.

It’s about God’s word and how he makes our spirit Born Again.....you have no say in the matter...it’s by divine revelation that we become Born Again of imperishable seed.

 

[PinSeeker]

ALL Israel will be saved...

And the Israel of God consists of people of all ethnicities ~ Jew and Gentile. As Paul says, speaking to Gentiles:

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:11-22)​

We are all, together, the Israel of God... true Jews, in the words of Paul at the end of Romans 2, Jews inwardly, because true circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit.

You just made my point for me, OT prophets speak of a time, when God uses the suffering of the hebrew people to bring them to repentance. Called the time of Jacobs trouble.

In the OT, God's Israel is limited to ethnic Jews, but with a few foreigners welcomed in, which points to a greater truth, that God's true Israel is not limited to ethnic Jews but to Jews and Gentiles (people of all nations). This idea of "lesser" and "greater" permeates Scripture. As Jesus says in Matthew 5 at the beginning of His public ministry:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."​

There is no ethnic restriction on this. See above.

its not about Gentile believers.

It is about all believers, both Jew and Gentile, regardless of ethnicity. See above.

Please show me how.

I did, EG, by pointing out to you who Israel really is. Paul is crystal clear on this in Romans 2:28-29. God's Israel is not ethnically based, it consists of those who are given God's Spirit, and thus inward, of the heart, not outward. And this is in keeping with what Ezekiel says in his prophecy, both 11:19-20 ~

"I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."​

...and 36:24-27 ~

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."​

And please. stop bringing Arminius into our conversation.

Okay, well, stop bring Calvin into the conversation. :)

Every time you do this, i assume you are reading me through Calvin eyes...

This disagreement between you and me is the same one that was between Arminius and Calvin.

...and not hearing a word I am saying...

Oh, yes I am... :)

...your trying so hard to put me and Arminius in the same mold...

It is what it is. You see Scripture as he did. And, I'm perfectly fine with you saying I see things as Calvin did. I am not offended. :)

. and i reject Arminius doctrine...

But you espouse it. I mean, okay, we can certainly take Jacobus Arminius out of the "equation" :) ...but your words and positions indicate, irrefutably, that you think along the same lines as he did, albeit unintentionally. Like I said, it is what it is.

...so it is a great offence to me when you do this...

It should not be, but I can't help that...

Please show me some respect your listening to me...

I have, over and over and over again, and have been very explicit in doing so. I could say this same thing right back to you, but I won't. :)

Justification is actually a legal term.

Absolutely. And it is God Who justifies, as you will agree, I'm sure.

...we are justified by faith...

Yes, and this faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit... 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 again, particularly verses 9 and 11...

.. so faith MUST precede regeneration

No, in this regeneration, we are given this faith, because we are given the Holy Spirit, who works His gifts in us.

Actually it does when you claim faith must come after regeneration...

I really said it's all the same event, both before, and here.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am amazed at those who think God is so powerless. he can help a non believer understand and give that person the ability to repent and trust God to be saved.

I do not know where this thinking comes from. (well I guess I do. some man thought it up a few hundred years ago. and it took off)

Men's teachings, and after 1,500 years of Christianity, will always be off.

The teachings of John Calvin and others like him (Knox, Zwigly) have actually changed the very nature of God.

Getting some doctrine or other wrong can be acceptable, but getting God's character wrong is not acceptable.

And, it didn't even take off too well.
Most Protestant denominations have abandoned such teachings that are found in the confessions.
And they did well to do so....they realized what a mistake Calvin made.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

in case anyone thinks I am being rude.

Here are what we have discussed in many thread.

We are born again of imperishable seed. the winds blow and we do not know where it comes from. so is being born of the spirit.

WHen nocodemus asked how these things can be, (who does it happen) Jesus answered.

As moses lifted the serpent, so to must the son of man be lifted. that whoever believes will not perish but has eternal life, For God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that whoever believed will never perish, but has eternal life (new birth)

for he was not sent (this time) to judge the world. but that the world might be saved.

whoever believes is not condemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already.

the part that is born again, is (whoever)

In ephesians, paul agrees with Jesus.

eph 2: And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast

Again, Who is born again? YOU (me) and anyone else who is born again,

Who walked according to the world? YOU - (I or me, or anyone else that has been born again)

WE Were dead in tresspassed and sin

He made US alive

Ha made US to sit in heavenly places

iT IS BY grace WE have been saved through faith. again US. ME, I, YOU, Everyone who is born again

its not some magic thing inside us. She keeps asking what inside us gets born again,m What kind of question is this. And because i quote Jesus and Paul. I am in error and I am not answering her question.

She will not admit this, if she does praise God. But I want people to know I am not just being a jerk. I have my reasons for calling what she does childish, it gets old

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And the Israel of God consists of people of all ethnicities ~ Jew and Gentile. As Paul says, speaking to Gentiles:

​

This is wrong

In romans 11. There was a remnant (Those of Isreal who were saved) which means there was lost Israel as well

then there were Gentiles who believed (non jew

Israel was called the natural branch, Gentiles are called the unnatural branch.

the whole chapter has seperated saved jew from saved gentile..

And the warning it to save gentiles not to boast or think they have it all. Because there will be a time when ALL Israel (natural Israel) is saved..

God is not done with Israel. Thats Pauls argument in romans 11 which he started in chapter 9 .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Men's teachings, and after 1,500 years of Christianity, will always be off.

The teachings of John Calvin and others like him (Knox, Zwigly) have actually changed the very nature of God.

Getting some doctrine or other wrong can be acceptable, but getting God's character wrong is not acceptable.

And, it didn't even take off too well.
Most Protestant denominations have abandoned such teachings that are found in the confessions.
And they did well to do so....they realized what a mistake Calvin made.

Most of them did, Arminius was nt much better. sadly alot of people left the catholic church, but brought some of her heresy's with them, and many made up new heresies..