Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Now take a look at what the story of the "Two Witnesses" teaches.

The Two Witnesses represent each Elect believer of this age as they travel the pathway to salvation. They do not represent two future people who appear at the end of the literal age - that is a carnal understanding of the story.

The two witnesses begin their journey when they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. The verse below describes what happens to the Two Witnesses shortly after this time.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The scripture below describes what happens to them when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit (which comes in power and strength):

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them (this is the Latter Rain), and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The above scripture represents when a fallen away Elect believer is converted and gathered up to heaven (spiritually speaking).

The scripture below describes the same event:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (the time a believer has the spirit of anti-Christ) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with POWER and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Judgment will immediately follow the salvation event that was described above. The verses below describe when Christ (the stronger man) removes the spirit of anti-Christ from within the believer:

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came (represents judgment), and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two (one flesh/one believer) be in the field; the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (Great Harlot/carnal nature), and the other left (new spiritual nature that the Holy Spirit gives the believer).

Now consider the parable of the strongman:

Luke 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace (apostate believer dwells in peace and safety): 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him (the Latter Rain), and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted (the believer's own "works"), and divideth his spoils.

Joe

As for your understanding of Mat. 24:39-41, I have heard something similar, but I don't agree with that interpretation at all. In synopsis, it doesn't agree with the words of Luke 17:26-30.

In your understanding of the Strong man, I disagree. Jesus is talking about the defeat of satan's ability to re-enter into anyone who is "born again of the Spirit". Satan can no longer re-enter Heaven, nor anyone, who is born again from above [Heaven].

As for your take on the "two witnesses", I will be to the point.
Zech. 4:11-14
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

The two witnesses were/are the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus.
John's ministry was for 6 months.
Jesus' ministry was for 3 years, when totalled together, it equals to 3.5 years or 1260 days.

Of all people, who were ever born among women, John and Jesus are the ONLY TWO, that ever had the Holy Spirit of God at birth.
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and John was GIVEN the Holy Spirit upon his birth.

.

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
You said:
The Holy Spirit is ONLY GIVEN to SEAL us unto the day of redemption. Jesus Himself IS the "latter rain".

Yes, Jesus is the Latter Rain but He is also the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the Latter and Former RAIN unto the earth.

The Early Rain is the Spirit of Faith because it gives an unbeliever a "measure of faith".

The Latter Rain is the Spirit of Truth because it heals the believer's spiritual blindness so that Christ can feed the believer the truth during the Marriage Supper of the Lamb/Lord's Supper. This is when the believer opens the door to Christ (I will talk about that verse below).

Both Rains indwell a person when they are given to them by Christ. No where in scripture does it ever say that the Spirit "comes along side" the person. It comes within a person and changes their heart and mind.

As for the verse you have been quoting, you are misunderstanding what it is teaching.

Here is the verse:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The house is a believer who only has the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are in a fallen away state and are mixing works with faith. When Christ decides it is time to convert them, He will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah with the call to repent from dead works. If the person is one of the Elect, Christ will give them the gift of repentance which will make His pathway straight for Him to come into the person (the house) as the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After Christ enters the believer, their spiritual blindness will be healed and He will "sup" with them. This dinner represents the Marriage Supper of the Lamb/Lord's Supper when Christ feeds His bread and New Wine to the newly born again Elect believer.

Below is the scripture which teaches when Christ gives the gift of repentance to one of His Elect. Notice that the verse says that the believer has been taken by the snare of the devil (same as Isa 28:9-12). They are in a fallen away state and are in the apostate church.

2Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

If the believer is not one of the Elect, Christ will not give them the gift of repentance when the call of Elijah is made to them. The call of Elijah happens just before Christ knocks at the door. For the Elect who are given the gift of repentance, they will hear the Lord's voice and will open the door.

A person has no ability to repent unless Christ causes it to happen. He provides everything an Elect believer needs for their salvation.

You quoted Rev 16:9-11 in your previous post and I want to make some comments on it now.

Chapter 16 presents the judgments of Christ by the pouring out of the vials of God's wrath.

Verses 9-11 is referring to the Elect who are still under the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ. They have not yet repented of their works. The plaques that Christ sends to them come from the Great Harlot (the believer's worsened carnality that is controlled by the spirit of anti-Christ). This portion of God's wrath does not convert the Elect believer.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat (judgment), and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues (these are the plagues of the Great Harlot, Rev 18:4): and they repented not to give him glory (they are claiming the works of Christ as their own). 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness (no truth in it); and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores (sins), and repented not of their deeds (works).

The next two vials (6&7) describe the judgment portion of the conversion event for the Elect. It skips showing the repentance of the Elect believer and their receiving of the Latter Rain since chapter 16 is only describing Christ's judgment (the vials).

Below are the key verses:

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

This is the same as this verse:

Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

The "kings of the east" represents the same thing as do the "four angels" and are also the same as the "mighty angels" in the verse from 2Thes1:7.

2Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Those "who know not God" are the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot.


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The "blessed" are the Elect. At this time, the Elect have already been given the gift of repentance and have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. They have put on their white robes of righteousness.

The battle of Armageddon is when Christ's judgment falls on the Elect believer. This judgment will remove and destroy all the things that make have made the Elect believer carnal (spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot). It is shown in Mat 24:39-41. In this way, the believer does not experience the wrath of the Lake of Fire. The last half of Revelation chapter 19 shows this separation during the believer's time of judgment.

The Great Harlot's description and judgment are shown in more detail in chapters 17 & 18.

Joe

Don't get me wrong, I agree to much of what you say. "That spirit of anti-christ", aka demonic possession**, does mislead many away from "making their calling and election sure/sealed", which is to literally ask for the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.
For one to ASK for the Gift of the Holy Spirit, is scriptural. Doubt it not!!


However prior to their asking, the Holy Spirit REMAINS on the OUTSIDE of that person until they DO ASK.
Therefore, the longer that they delay, the longer it is that satan can take up residence within them and torment them on every level of their being, even death.
There are not many that truly understand 1 Cor. 11
[27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
[28] But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
[30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep [have died].

Make no mistake, everyone who dies WITHOUT the Spirit of Christ within them, "IS NONE OF HIS".....FOREVER!!
Rom. 8:8-9.
>> Here is my previously edited addition to my post #272:
"Edit: what did you think the words "ASK and it shall be GIVEN you" is describing?
Luke 12
[9] And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
[10] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

**Note: demonic possession is not necessarily always violent in behavior, it can also appear to be very benevolent, all the while denying that Jesus came to us in the likeness of our flesh.
1 John 4
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I see no scriptures calling or describing God's "ages" of time. I perceive that all of such that you may see, is just a fabrication of what YOU hope to see.

Dear Earburner,
That's because you are reading the wrong translations. The Greek word "aion" means an "age" of time. But most translations incorrectly translate it has meaning "world" or "forever". Only a few times will they correctly translate it as "age".

From what I can see, most translation errors occur because of translator bias. They translate certain words to make the verses agree with their false beliefs which they were taught in the apostate church. When studying scripture, it is necessary to study from many translations.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
That's because you are reading the wrong translations. The Greek word "aion" means an "age" of time. But most translations incorrectly translate it has meaning "world" or "forever". Only a few times will they correctly translate it as "age".

From what I can see, most translation errors occur because of translator bias. They translate certain words to make the verses agree with their false beliefs which they were taught in the apostate church. When studying scripture, it is necessary to study from many translations.

Joe

Through "the mind of Christ" within me, He clearly interprets the words to it's simplest meaning.
1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but in the [Holy Spirit] power [authority] of God.

 

[FaithWillDo]

As for your understanding of Mat. 24:39-41, I have heard something similar, but I don't agree with that interpretation at all. In synopsis, it doesn't agree with the words of Luke 17:26-30.

In your understanding of the Strong man, I disagree. Jesus is talking about the defeat of satan's ability to re-enter into anyone who is "born again of the Spirit". Satan can no longer re-enter Heaven, nor anyone, who is born again from above [Heaven].

As for your take on the "two witnesses", I will be to the point.
Zech. 4:11-14
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

The two witnesses were/are the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus.
John's ministry was for 6 months.
Jesus' ministry was for 3 years, when totalled together, it equals to 3.5 years or 1260 days.

Of all people, who were ever born among women, John and Jesus are the ONLY TWO, that ever had the Holy Spirit of God at birth.
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and John was GIVEN the Holy Spirit upon his birth.

.

Dear Earburner,
Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ and the His words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual.

Paul even says that he teaches in a "mystery":

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

And since God's Word teaches its truth "here a little and there a little", truth must be assembled in order to understand the full picture.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Christ also says that His words are "spirit":

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Spirit words have meaning that are different than what man's wisdom teaches and those words must be applied "spiritually" to what is being taught. This means that the teachings occur within a person.

Christ uses His spirit words in types, analogies, parables and prophecies to make it even more difficult to understand.

Because Christ teaches this way, scripture says that Christ teaches in 'another language". I call this language the spiritual language of Christ.

Christ teaches His truth in this "another language" for the purpose of keeping His truth concealed from this world and from the "babes" who only have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Christ does this so that the "babes" will "fall backward, be broken, and snared and taked" by Satan.

If a person is one of the Elect, they will find their salvation on the other side of the apostate church that they must pass through. It cannot be avoided. But most of the "babe" are not chosen to be saved in their lifetimes. They will die in an apostate condition and will received their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. They have no choice in the matter.

When Christ comes to an Elect believer the second time, He will always find them in an apostate condition. After He gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Spirit of Truth), their spiritual blindness will be healed. They will then have "eyes that can see" and one of the first things they will see will be the Abomination of Desolation that occurred previously within them. If a believer has not seen the A of D, they are not converted but are still under the deceptions of Satan.

Since you say that you have not seen the A of D, I know that you are still unconverted and are still spiritually blind. For that reason, you will not be able to receive the truth that I can present you; no matter how much free will ability and intelligence you think you have, it will not give you the ability to understand and receive the truth of Christ.

I was going to respond to some of your comments above because they are so lacking of any truth. But knowing that you have no ability (as of yet) to understand and receive the truth which I could point out, there isn't any reason to continue trying. I learned a long time ago that a blind man still won't be able to see no matter how much light is shined upon them. That is the nature of being blind. Only Christ can heal a person's blindness. In this age, He is only healing the blindness of His chosen Elect. No one else will understand, because if they did, they would be able to eat of the Tree of Life. But in this age, Christ is only leading the Elect to Himself so that He can feed them the truth.

By the end of the final age, though, all mankind will eat of the Tree of Life and will come unto the knowledge of the truth. This is the purpose for why Christ came into the world and He will not rest until all mankind has been saved.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I believe that the time to end our discussion has come. I'm going to move onto other threads (as the Lord "wills").

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ and the His words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual.

Paul even says that he teaches in a "mystery":

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

And since God's Word teaches its truth "here a little and there a little", truth must be assembled in order to understand the full picture.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Christ also says that His words are "spirit":

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Spirit words have meaning that are different than what man's wisdom teaches and those words must be applied "spiritually" to what is being taught. This means that the teachings occur within a person.

Christ uses His spirit words in types, analogies, parables and prophecies to make it even more difficult to understand.

Because Christ teaches this way, scripture says that Christ teaches in 'another language". I call this language the spiritual language of Christ.

Christ teaches His truth in this "another language" for the purpose of keeping His truth concealed from this world and from the "babes" who only have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Christ does this so that the "babes" will "fall backward, be broken, and snared and taked" by Satan.

If a person is one of the Elect, they will find their salvation on the other side of the apostate church that they must pass through. It cannot be avoided. But most of the "babe" are not chosen to be saved in their lifetimes. They will die in an apostate condition and will received their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. They have no choice in the matter.

When Christ comes to an Elect believer the second time, He will always find them in an apostate condition. After He gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Spirit of Truth), their spiritual blindness will be healed. They will then have "eyes that can see" and one of the first things they will see will be the Abomination of Desolation that occurred previously within them. If a believer has not seen the A of D, they are not converted but are still under the deceptions of Satan.

Since you say that you have not seen the A of D, I know that you are still unconverted and are still spiritually blind. For that reason, you will not be able to receive the truth that I can present you; no matter how much free will ability and intelligence you think you have, it will not give you the ability to understand and receive the truth of Christ.

I was going to respond to some of your comments above because they are so lacking of any truth. But knowing that you have no ability (as of yet) to understand and receive the truth which I could point out, there isn't any reason to continue trying. I learned a long time ago that a blind man still won't be able to see no matter how much light is shined upon them. That is the nature of being blind. Only Christ can heal a person's blindness. In this age, He is only healing the blindness of His chosen Elect. No one else will understand, because if they did, they would be able to eat of the Tree of Life. But in this age, Christ is only leading the Elect to Himself so that He can feed them the truth.

By the end of the final age, though, all mankind will eat of the Tree of Life and will come unto the knowledge of the truth. This is the purpose for why Christ came into the world and He will not rest until all mankind has been saved.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I believe that the time to end our discussion has come. I'm going to move onto other threads (as the Lord "wills").

Joe

Though you have said much here, I will be brief. Not only are His words Spirit, but they fulfilled prophecy, and are also prophetic in themselves. "The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy". So don't hang on to only one item of the list.

"The Abomination that maketh desolate" (Dan.) Was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes "in the latter time of their empire", the Grecian Empire (3rd beast).

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

To catch up on the history of it, 1&2 Maccabees is an accurate Jewish account.
You might also look at Proverbs 6:13-17, and then locate the 7th abomination against God, of which Jesus fulfilled. (Clue: the word innocent).

Jesus used the "AoD" in typology, pointing to HIMSELF. The AoD was not far future, but rather in the immediacy of Christ's future, while He was mortal flesh.
Now all can understand His words to the Jews in John 2
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy [desolate] this temple, and in three days I will raise it up [restore it].
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his [own mortal] body.
[22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Though Jesus' sacrifice of Himself was for all of us, so also was it for the Father, otherwise God COULD NOT EVER Live within us, without Him living THROUGH Jesus!! John 14:23
As the sin bearer, for the sins of every person, the mortal death of His Son, along with His persecution, was indeed the 7th abomination committed literally against God Himself, and therefore Jesus alone suffered "the abomination that maketh desolate", aka what it means to be VOID of God.
"Father, why hast thou FORSAKEN me?"

But we who believe, do know that He was RESTORED TO NEW LIFE, and was rejoined by His Father, in His Resurrection:)

 

[Kabone]

Dear Earburner,
Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ and the His words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual.

Paul even says that he teaches in a "mystery":

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

And since God's Word teaches its truth "here a little and there a little", truth must be assembled in order to understand the full picture.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Christ also says that His words are "spirit":

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Spirit words have meaning that are different than what man's wisdom teaches and those words must be applied "spiritually" to what is being taught. This means that the teachings occur within a person.

Christ uses His spirit words in types, analogies, parables and prophecies to make it even more difficult to understand.

Because Christ teaches this way, scripture says that Christ teaches in 'another language". I call this language the spiritual language of Christ.

Christ teaches His truth in this "another language" for the purpose of keeping His truth concealed from this world and from the "babes" who only have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Christ does this so that the "babes" will "fall backward, be broken, and snared and taked" by Satan.

If a person is one of the Elect, they will find their salvation on the other side of the apostate church that they must pass through. It cannot be avoided. But most of the "babe" are not chosen to be saved in their lifetimes. They will die in an apostate condition and will received their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. They have no choice in the matter.

When Christ comes to an Elect believer the second time, He will always find them in an apostate condition. After He gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Spirit of Truth), their spiritual blindness will be healed. They will then have "eyes that can see" and one of the first things they will see will be the Abomination of Desolation that occurred previously within them. If a believer has not seen the A of D, they are not converted but are still under the deceptions of Satan.

Since you say that you have not seen the A of D, I know that you are still unconverted and are still spiritually blind. For that reason, you will not be able to receive the truth that I can present you; no matter how much free will ability and intelligence you think you have, it will not give you the ability to understand and receive the truth of Christ.

I was going to respond to some of your comments above because they are so lacking of any truth. But knowing that you have no ability (as of yet) to understand and receive the truth which I could point out, there isn't any reason to continue trying. I learned a long time ago that a blind man still won't be able to see no matter how much light is shined upon them. That is the nature of being blind. Only Christ can heal a person's blindness. In this age, He is only healing the blindness of His chosen Elect. No one else will understand, because if they did, they would be able to eat of the Tree of Life. But in this age, Christ is only leading the Elect to Himself so that He can feed them the truth.

By the end of the final age, though, all mankind will eat of the Tree of Life and will come unto the knowledge of the truth. This is the purpose for why Christ came into the world and He will not rest until all mankind has been saved.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I believe that the time to end our discussion has come. I'm going to move onto other threads (as the Lord "wills").

Joe

This is some thread. What started as ‘stay faithful, my friends’ morphed into who will attain eternal salvation. Probably not what the OP had in mind. And forgive me for continuing to stray from the path. Plenty people have offered their differing perspectives and have backed them up with all kinds of verses. You guys have really dug in. What puzzles me is why we aren’t trying to reconcile what appears to be inconsistencies of scripture. If all of the Bible is truth, how can we make it such that both verses are true.
I have a few questions.
If I declare that Jesus is my creator, the one true god, and my savior, does that mean I have received the early rain?
Having not yet received the latter rain, I am a worse person than I was before b/c of the antichrist?
You’re saying Matthew, mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, et al, they all knew about the early rain, the possession by the Antichrist, latter rain, and all of us are going to heaven?
Satan can over power what Christ has done?
Jesus wants me to pray, should I?
Jesus wants me to seek righteousness, should I?
Jesus wants me to feed the hungry, tend to the sick, visit the incarcerated, should l?
Jesus wants me to offer my other cheek, should I?
I ask those last few because those seem like carnal works, and I don’t want to serve 2 masters.
And please, I don’t need you to list a dozen verses, or give a detailed description of the process and sequence of the rains. I’ve already read every post. I would just like a simple yes or no response to my yes or no questions. Thanks in advance.

 

[Earburner]

Since we might not hear from "FaithWillDo", I thought I might interject.

Yes, all born again Christians shall DO "good works", but not according to OUR own will.
We who ARE SAVED, are to allow Jesus to do HIS own good works THROUGH US.
Rom. 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a LIVING sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 BUT, before we can do that, we must be absolutely sure, that He, by His Holy Spirit, is actually living/dwelling within us!!
There are many professing christians who follow Jesus in "copy cat", but DON'T HAVE HIM!! They are what Paul says about them:
"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".

1 John 5:11-18
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life IS IN HIS SON [through having faith in Jesus].

[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
See John 3:3-8; Rom. 8:8-9, Luke 11:13; Rev. 3:20.

[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
[18] We know that whosoever is born [AGAIN] of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
With Jesus within you, (who is "STRONGER" than the "strong man"-satan), having now taken up permanent residence within you, satan and his evil horde can no longer re-enter into you AT ALL. In that moment, you will have been "sealed unto the Day of redemption".

There are MANY that generally believe that Jesus came into world to save sinners, but there are very few who have come to Him, with their WHOLE heart of being, that they should ASK to RECEIVE HIM into their life, thereby answering HIS KNOCKING upon the door of our heart [our human will], and INVITE Him INTO OUR VERY OWN BEING. Rev. 3:20.
In Rev. 3:14-19, Jesus explains to the church of Laodecia how being lukewarm, is an indecision (on opening the door), that shall result in our being REJECTED BY Him, if we don't answer and open the "door" of our innermost being (heart), and allow Him to LITERALLY come into us.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I have a few questions.
If I declare that Jesus is my creator, the one true god, and my savior, does that mean I have received the early rain?
Having not yet received the latter rain, I am a worse person than I was before b/c of the antichrist?
You’re saying Matthew, mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, et al, they all knew about the early rain, the possession by the Antichrist, latter rain, and all of us are going to heaven?

Dear Kabone,

Simple yes or no responses would not be adequate but I will try to keep my answers short.

If I declare that Jesus is my creator, the one true god, and my savior, does that mean I have received the early rain?

Yes, if you truly mean it from your heart - because no man can call Jesus Lord without the Spirit.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what gives a person their faith. They will have no faith without it.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man (everyman among you) the measure of faith.

You asked:
Having not yet received the latter rain, I am a worse person than I was before b/c of the antichrist?

Yes. Christ clearly says so below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

What you have to remember is that Satan masquerades as a angel of Light (Christ). So outwardly, the person does not appear to be "worse than the first". But spiritually, the person is full of dead men's bones (spiritually dead) like the Pharisees PLUS they have also have become the habitation of devils (spirit of anti-Christ):

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Mystery Babylon the Great/Great Harlot/Sodom/Old Jerusalem are ALL spiritual symbols which represent mankind's marred & carnal spirit/wicked heart. Eve is a "type" for mankind's carnal spirit and that is why Satan came to her in the Garden. Satan attacks mankind through their carnal spirit. It is mankind's carnal spirit that become "worse than the first".

For that reason, the "woman" is guilty of the transgression and is who Christ is going to hold accountable.

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

During the conversion process when Christ comes to an Elect believer the second time, the "woman" will be destroyed from within the person. Her destruction is shown in Revelation chapter 18. She is the cause of mankind's sin problem and because of such, she will suffer the penalty of death.

You asked:
You’re saying Matthew, mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, et al, they all knew about the early rain, the possession by the Antichrist, latter rain, and all of us are going to heaven?

I'm sure they understood those things except for maybe the coming of the spirit of anti-Christ. You have to remember that the prophecy of spirit of anti-Christ was not given until around 50 A. D. or maybe even a little later.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of THREE YEARS I ceased not to warn every one night and day with TEARS.

The coming apostasy of the church was very distressing news for Paul. And like Paul, we should not take this news lightly either. Since the end of the 1st century, the spirit of anti-Christ took over the churches that the Apostles started. Nothing has changed since that time and you can see that reflected in the NT teachings, especially those of Christ and the book of Revelation.

But because the spirit of anti-Christ did not come into the church until sometime after 65 A. D., the effects of its coming were not shown in the letters of the NT. The believers who only had the Early Rain of the Spirit at that time were still faithful and saved. They just were not converted. As Paul said, they were "chaste virgins" (2Cor 11:2) who were waiting on the Lord to return for the marriage (conversion event) to take place.

You also must remember that the terms "Early and Latter Rains" are a part of the farming analogy used in scripture. The concept that they represent is not always stated in those terms. In the marriage analogy, the Early Rain of the Spirit occurs when the person is made a "chaste virgin" (2Cor 11:2). The virgin must then wait "faithfully" for the Bridegroom to return for the marriage (Latter Rain/conversion event) to take place.

I will answer your other questions in another post. I'll try to keep those answers shorter.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Satan can over power what Christ has done?
Jesus wants me to pray, should I?
Jesus wants me to seek righteousness, should I?
Jesus wants me to feed the hungry, tend to the sick, visit the incarcerated, should l?
Jesus wants me to offer my other cheek, should I?
I ask those last few because those seem like carnal works, and I don’t want to serve 2 masters.
And please, I don’t need you to list a dozen verses, or give a detailed description of the process and sequence of the rains. I’ve already read every post. I would just like a simple yes or no response to my yes or no questions. Thanks in advance.

Dear Kabone,
You asked:
Satan can over power what Christ has done?

The Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small measure. It does not come with "power". Only the Latter Rain comes with power and strength:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

When the spirit of anti-Christ comes into a new believer, a spiritual war develops and Satan will win that war and will spiritually kill the believer. That is why scripture says that the prophets are all killed in Old Jerusalem. Satan kills the saints through their carnal spirit/Old Jerusalem.

In the end, Satan will be defeated and all mankind will be saved.

You asked:
Jesus wants me to pray, should I?

Yes, pray to the Father in the name of Jesus for everything. The Father is the giver of good gifts (the Latter Rain of the Spirit). Paul even said to pray "without ceasing". Since we are dependent upon God for every step we take, we should never stop praying.

I will add this comment though: Christ within us is the one who causes us to pray. I have found that when Christ is ready to bless me in some way, He will cause me to pray for that blessing in advance. Nothing happens in this world that God does not cause to happen.

You asked:
Jesus wants me to seek righteousness, should I?

Yes. But it is the Spirit within you that gives you that desire and "will". If you don't have that desire or "will", it is only because the Spirit is not giving it to you.

You asked:
Jesus wants me to feed the hungry, tend to the sick, visit the incarcerated, should l?

Yes, if the Spirit within you is giving you that desire, then do it. However, Mat 25:35-36 is not talking about physically feeding the hungry or physically visiting the sick. Christ's words are spirit and they carry meaning that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.

Here is how to understand what Christ was saying (my comments are in blue):

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred (for righteousness), and ye gave me meat (truth): I was thirsty (for righteousness), and ye gave me drink (milk & New Wine): I was a stranger (unbeliever), and ye took me in (accepted me): 36 Naked (sinful), and ye clothed me (white robe): I was sick (fallen away), and ye visited me: I was in prison (in bondage to sin), and ye came unto me.

The Spirit has put in my heart to likewise do these things and that why I try to help others on the forum.

You asked:
Jesus wants me to offer my other cheek, should I?

Yes, but not literally. When a person is led by the Spirit, they will love their enemies and will not judge them. When a person harms you, you should not try to harm them in return.

Joe

 

[Behold]

Dear Kabone,
You asked:
Satan can over power what Christ has done?

This world is spiritual darkness, that is completed designed to be so..... by the "god of this world.""

Jesus, who is "the Light of the World", came to offer Himself as The LIGHT that lights our way out of the Devil's Spiritual Darkness.

To exist in this Light = is to be delivered from Satan's Spiritual Darkness,.... and you have to do this...

Jesus said...."YOU MUST .... be... born again".. and that is not water baptism..

To become Born.....again, is to become spiritually birthed "by my SPIRIT, sayeth THE LORD"..

 

[FaithWillDo]

This world is spiritual darkness, that is completed designed to be so..... by the "god of this world.""

Jesus, who is "the Light of the World", came to offer Himself as The LIGHT that lights our way out of the Devil's Spiritual Darkness.

To exist in this Light that is to be delivered from Satan's Spiritual Darkness, you have to do this...

Jesus said...."YOU MUST .... be... born again".. and that is not water baptism..

To become Born.....again, is to become spiritually birthed "by my SPIRIT, sayeth THE LORD"..

Dear Behold,
To be born again happens by the work of Christ. This requires Christ to give a person the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. Christ is the Savior and He is the only one who can do this work - and He is also the one who decides WHEN it will be done for a person.
Joe

 

[Behold]

Dear Behold,
To be born again happens by the work of Christ.

Salvation, is "Jesus".

The Cross of Christ, is where God's Salvation, is offered to the world of unbelievers.

John 3:16

To RECEIVE this "Gift of Salvation" BY FAITH..... which is to BELIEVE...in the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, that is the "Blood Atonement"... = "Redemption".. that is only found "IN Christ".

To get there........Jesus said you "Must be Born again".. and God causes that, the instant you give God YOUR Faith, in Christ.

 

[Earburner]

Here is how to understand what Christ was saying (my comments are in blue):

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred (for righteousness), and ye gave me meat (truth): I was thirsty (for righteousness), and ye gave me drink (milk & New Wine): I was a stranger (unbeliever), and ye took me in (accepted me): 36 Naked (sinful), and ye clothed me (white robe): I was sick (fallen away), and ye visited me: I was in prison (in bondage to sin), and ye came unto me.

The Spirit has put in my heart to likewise do these things and that why I try to help others on the forum.

Now you are speaking clearly!! ^That is what (your words in blue^) Born Again Christians seek to do, by the will of the Spirit of Christ who dwells/lives WITHIN US, who is Himself the "Latter Rain".

Anything else of His work, that He would do, PRIOR to US literally receiving Christ, is the work of the "former rain", which is performed by Him FROM OUTSIDE OF US. The "former rain" cannot and does NOT "save/seal us unto the day of redemption". Only the "Latter Rain" can do that.

Therefore, anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, never "opened the door", to receive the Latter Rain, who is Christ, and as a result, they literally are none of His, and never will be!! Rom. 8:9.
We see such people in Mat. 7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Salvation, is "Jesus".

The Cross of Christ, is where God's Salvation, is offered to the world of unbelievers.

John 3:16

To RECEIVE this "Gift of Salvation" BY FAITH..... which is to BELIEVE...in the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, that is the "Blood Atonement"... = "Redemption".. that is only found "IN Christ".

To get there........Jesus said you "Must be Born again".. and God causes that, the instant you give God YOUR Faith, in Christ.

Dear Behold,
Salvation is not "offered" to mankind. That gospel is "works" based and comes from Satan. It is false.

Salvation is freely "given" to mankind. This is the true gospel of Christ and it is based solely on the works of Christ.

In mankind's created spiritual state, no one can understand God or have a desire to seek Him out. To the natural man, the things of God are "foolishness".

Because of mankind's inability to contribute anything towards their salvation, mankind is completely at the mercy of Christ to save them. To save mankind, Christ will come to each person who has ever lived and will freely give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Judgment will then immediately follow to remove the "chaff".

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what gives the person their "faith". The Latter Rain of the Spirit is what will give a person "truth".

In this age, Christ has said that He is only going to save the individuals who have been chosen before the foundation of the world for this blessing. They are the Elect/heirs/saints/first-fruits/bride/wheat. They are the only ones who Christ will convert before they die. The balance of mankind will be freely given their salvation in the final age.

Before the Elect receive their salvation from Christ, they will each experience their "day of evil" in the apostate church. To call the Elect out of the apostate church, Christ will send a converted believer to His unconverted Elect with the call of repentance. Christ will then "cause" the person to repent by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With their repentance, Christ's pathway will be made "straight" for Him to "appear" to the restored believer.

Can you respond to the call of repentance from works? That call is being made to you right now. If you can't respond to the call, it is only because Christ has not given you that ability by giving you the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

For those who can't respond to the call, they will be forced to "turn back" just as the Foolish Virgins had to do. They did not remain chaste, neither could they repent of their works. They lacked the Latter Rain (extra flask of oil) which would have given them the ability to go out and meet the Bridegroom.

This verse applies:

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a WHORE'S FOREHEAD, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

And this one, too:

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds (works).

The time of great tribulation (Mat 24:21) is the time a believer spends under the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ when they have a whore's forehead (Great Harlot/whore, Rev 17:1 and Rev 18:2).

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what gives the person their "faith". The Latter Rain of the Spirit is what will give a person "truth".

When are you going to admit that Jesus Himself is the "Latter Rain"?

 

[Kabone]

I also have questions about free will. If god causes all our actions, then:
why does he test people?
He made the eqyptians enslave the Jews in order to free them and then reminded them that he is the one that freed them. Did He leave out the part he’s also the one who enslaved them?
Why give us instructions on how to act?
Why all the theatrics and wrath of the end of days? Just end it and move on.
Do I feel love, happiness, fear, etc. on my own?
Are my thoughts my own?

 

[FaithWillDo]

When are you going to admit that Jesus Himself is the "Latter Rain"?

Dear Earburner,

I have never deny it.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the latter and former RAIN unto the earth.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of Truth (the Latter Rain); whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

And the verse you like to quoted:

Rev 3:30 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him (Latter Rain), and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ is Spirit now and not flesh. He comes to us as the Early and Latter Rains.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

I also have questions about free will. If god causes all our actions, then:
why does he test people?
He made the eqyptians enslave the Jews in order to free them and then reminded them that he is the one that freed them. Did He leave out the part he’s also the one who enslaved them?
Why give us instructions on how to act?
Why all the theatrics and wrath of the end of days? Just end it and move on.
Do I feel love, happiness, fear, etc. on my own?
Are my thoughts my own?

God purposely gave mankind the freedom to CHOOSE, right from the beginning with Adam & Eve. The wrong choice by them, is our inheritance of FREE WILL.
However, in the midst of our free will, God seeketh those who are willing to be "fitted" to worship Him IN Spirit and IN truth.
John 4
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

To HAVE the "Spirit of truth", is to HAVE "The Truth", who IS Jesus.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I also have questions about free will. If god causes all our actions, then:
why does he test people?
He made the eqyptians enslave the Jews in order to free them and then reminded them that he is the one that freed them. Did He leave out the part he’s also the one who enslaved them?
Why give us instructions on how to act?
Why all the theatrics and wrath of the end of days? Just end it and move on.
Do I feel love, happiness, fear, etc. on my own?
Are my thoughts my own?

Dear Kabone,
You asked:
why does he test people?
Christ tests people to show them their true condition. He doesn't test them for His own benefit because He already knows what's in their heart beforehand.

Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

You asked:
He made the eqyptians enslave the Jews in order to free them and then reminded them that he is the one that freed them. Did He leave out the part he’s also the one who enslaved them?

No. Christ says it in the verses below:

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And here:

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

You asked:
Why give us instructions on how to act?

How would mankind know what sin is if mankind wasn't given "instructions"? This is also how mankind can know about the goodness of God.

You asked:
Why all the theatrics and wrath of the end of days? Just end it and move on.

God's wrath would be better translated as God's great passion. His great passion is to make mankind into His children who know good and evil.

Look at Christ's great passion for wanting to save mankind in the verse below:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire (symbol for judgment) on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Christ knows that His judgment will remove the "chaff" from within mankind and that it will complete mankind's salvation. After it is complete, mankind will be children of God who no longer sin. That is what drives Christ's great passion for judgment and is why the Father sent Him into the world.

Mankind is now learning about evil in an experiential way. And because of His great passion to save mankind, Christ will remove the evil from within us all.

In some ways, saving mankind is like child birth; it can be unpleasant for both the mother and the child. That is why "longsuffering" is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Christ has the fruit of longsuffering because He needed it to see Him through mankind's time of being evil.

But that time of evil will not be as long mankind believes:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work (of saving mankind), and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

The verse below describes one of the ways that Christ will cut short His work:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain in just measure, and he causeth to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, IN THE FIRST MONTH.

Normally the Early Rain comes in the spring and the Latter Rain comes in the fall. But when Christ judges the lost in the final age, He will cut the time they spend in between the Early and Latter Rains. In this age, the time in between the two Rains can be many years for an Elect believer. For me personally, it was about 15 years. But in the final age, both rains will take place "in the first month".

You asked:
Do I feel love, happiness, fear, etc. on my own? Are my thoughts my own?

Yes and no. You have a "will" and you have a mind that has thoughts and beliefs. But your mind is governed by your heart and it is Christ who governs your heart. If you are happy, it is Christ who has caused you to be happy. If you do evil, it is Christ who causes you to do evil via Satan or your wicked heart.

Consider these verses:

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Since mankind's sin is caused by God, Paul was asked why does God still hold mankind accountable for our sins. Below is Paul's reply:

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

When a person is an unbeliever, their heart is governed by the needs of the flesh, along with Satan's outward temptations. After a person becomes a believer who has the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling them, their carnal heart will be spiritually governed by Satan. This will make the person "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition a "man of sin" (an apostate believer).

The flaw in mankind's heart is in its lack of strength. Because it is weak, our heart allows our flesh to govern it. This makes our heart have a carnal nature, which, in turn, makes our mind carnal as well. With a carnal mind, mankind puts the needs of the flesh ahead of the commandments of God. When we do that, we sin.

Because mankind is made in this spiritually marred way, Christ gave mankind the Old Covenant of Law to show us our true spiritual condition. The Law was given to prove to mankind that mankind has no ability to perfectly follow the commandments of God. After a person comes to this realization, that knowledge is to be their schoolmaster which is to lead them to Christ. They are lead to Christ because Christ is the only one who can do the necessary spiritual work of making us into a new creation - a creation that is spiritually like Him (spiritually strong and governed by the Father's Spirit).

Christ made mankind spiritually marred (Jer 18:4) and subject to vanity (Rom 8:20) from the beginning. Because mankind was created this way, it was certain that Adam and Eve were going to sin when tempted by Satan. They did not have the ability to make a free will choice in the matter. Christ made that choice for them.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

When Christ came into the world, He came with a body of flesh like mankind but He was spiritually different. Christ's had the full measure of the Holy Spirit to govern His heart. This made His heart strong and powerful, so much so, that His mind never became carnal. Christ ALWAYS put the things of God ahead of His fleshly needs, even to the point of death. Someday, all mankind will be like Him. This is our salvation.

Joe