Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Anyone who agrees with you in this, that God tortures people for all eternity with unrelenting agony and suffering, do not know God as they should. God is love. Where is the love in eternal torment?
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Does God love burning people in hell?
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I challenge anyone: Scriptures for wrath and fear of God VS the love of God. Start a thread. You will lose.
Proverbs 1
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Wise up!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
It isn't one or the other. And I'm not talking about God's wrath, but eternal torment. The scriptures are clear in innumerable places. The wages of sin is death. Not the wages of sin is eternal life in torment.
Only if you ignore Jesus.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
“He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” (Micah 6:8)
Do you have to “study” what this verse “could really mean”?
But verses couched in ambiguity and mystery are not the ones that tell you to stop sinning!
But men “study” them out until they mean sin LESS in their carnal minds…
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
As I said, God is love. That means there is nothing, absolutely nothing... God does nothing that is not motivated by love. There is love in the gospel, and if you read Revelation 14:6,7 you will discover that judgement is intimately connected to the gospel, therefore there is love in judgement. There is love in mercy. There is love in creation. There is love in redemption. There is love in keeping sinners out of heaven. But where is the love in eternal torment?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
We as children of the Most High are granted by the grace of God a sense of justice...a conscience that translates/understands/appreciates the difference between right and wrong. This we are born with, in some it is distorted through the events and trials of life and becomes blunted, and even through repeatedly experiencing trauma or viewing evil, becomes scarred and seared with a hot iron as the Apostles write. It becomes numb. Insensitive. Compassion and mercy becomes lost and love becomes cold. We become judgmental and condemning, searching for fault and rejoice when our enemies fall and our opponents fail. But as we grow in grace, we change. We become more sensitive to others. Compassion awakens. Those "weightier" matters of the law, love, mercy, true judgement and faith, come to the fore and we recognise true evil and despise it with a passion, not just in ourselves, but in the world. We then gain a glimpse of the character or nature of our Father. We begin to appreciate how He feels... Why He does what He does... We gain insight into His holiness and we even partake of the same. We become more like Him. We then see the actions of others in a truer light. We see evil for what it really is. How it demeans others. How it destroys the dignity and image of God in man. How it denigrates the character and destroys integrity, separating us from God and resulting in nothing but pain, suffering, and death. We rightly and justifiably detest cruelty in all its forms. Torture, brutality, and bullying becomes utterly contemptible, especially by those in power and positions of leadership... We call them tyrants... Despots... Dictators... Demon possessed, evil, and wicked and when their reign is finished, we are glad and rejoice because their victims receive respite, and peace and righteousness have a chance of recovery... We then are more determined to avoid such circumstances in the future where such leadership can arise.
Even secular people agree with this, but we converted children of God readily and justifiably recognise these evil traits in other humans, and know from whence this evil originates, and yet inexplicably there are Christians who grant the Creator God, and His Son, praise and worship for the same traits and appoint to Them the same character as the the most evil tyrant. How can this be? How can we be fully justified in condemning such a practice by men, but be justified in worshipping God for the same?
Belief in an endless torture, whether physical, mental, or spiritual, wherever it may be and of whatever intensity, if it has no end means that justice is never satisfied. Therefore it can only be an unjust punishment. Which does not belong to a just God. Such a belief must be rejected without reservation. You insult the Almighty and denigrate everything He stands for and represents.
Even secular people agree with this, but we converted children of God readily and justifiably recognise these evil traits in other humans, and know from whence this evil originates, and yet inexplicably there are Christians who grant the Creator God, and His Son, praise and worship for the same traits and appoint to Them the same character as the the most evil tyrant. How can this be? How can we be fully justified in condemning such a practice by men, but be justified in worshipping God for the same?
Belief in an endless torture, whether physical, mental, or spiritual, wherever it may be and of whatever intensity, if it has no end means that justice is never satisfied. Therefore it can only be an unjust punishment. Which does not belong to a just God. Such a belief must be rejected without reservation. You insult the Almighty and denigrate everything He stands for and represents.
Are you referring to God of the Bible who drowned all on Earth but 8 "making them an example", including children? Did you see my challenge?
"I challenge anyone: Scriptures for wrath and fear of God VS the love of God. Start a thread. You will lose."
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
For those who drowned, the wages of their sin was death. They were clearly beyond all hope of repentance. They died. And in the judgement, they will suffer in the lake of fire, and die the second death from which there will be no resurrection. Is that not biblical? Did that not reflect God's love for those who will in the end be in glory without having to fear another rebellion? Is that not love that gives them the separation from God they worked so hard to maintain? We are not talking about whether God's wrath results in suffering and punishment. We are talking about whether God is of such despicable character as to punish sinners forever without end and without mercy.
Not sure how you got that from what I said either, Brakelite. No, I did not somehow equate what you say I equated. Very puzzling.
Well maybe in your mind that is the "next logical step," but... I guess I would question ~ rhetorically speaking ~ whether you really listened to what I said or just read... stuff... into it.
Grace and peace to you.
Dear MatthewG,
From what I have read of your posts, I can say that I materially agree with them.
God is love and love never fails. God the Father sent Christ to save the world, so how can anyone who claims to have faith in Christ believe that He will fail in the most important mission His Father has given Him???
I can tell you with certainty that anyone who believes that Christ will fail to save the world has NO faith in Christ whatsoever. They are following "another gospel" which comes from "another spirit".
2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Shortly after the death of Paul, the spirit of anti-Christ devoured the church and spared no one. Satan then taught "another gospel" to the church which adds "works" to Christ's plan of salvation. It is at that time, the doctrines of Free Will and Hell were created and followed by the church. Since the time of the apostasy of the church, the church has only waxed worse and worse. This is how Satan kills the saints (Mat 24:9, Rev 11:7).
Because no one was spared from falling away and becoming "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45), it is necessary for Christ to come a second time to His Elect (those chosen for salvation in this age). If He did not "come again" to them, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the Elect, Christ will shorten their days which they must endure as a fallen away believer under the full influence of Satan (aka a Man of Sin). And like Christ did with the Jewish Elect, Christ will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah to cause them to repent of their works. With their repentance, the pathway for Christ to come will be made straight ("works" is the crooked way, faith is the straight way). When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them which will heal their spiritual blindness. This is what the 120 Jewish Elect experienced on the Day of Pentecost and is when they were converted.
After an Elect person has been born again and has been given "eyes that can see", Christ will appear to them for the first time. As the new child of God sups with Christ, Christ will feed them His milk, bread, New Wine and finally His meat. After this meal (the Marriage Supper of the Lamb), they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation which happened within themselves when Satan's spirit entered them. The Man of Sin will also be revealed to them and they will find that he was the one who had been looking back at them in the mirror. This will be a earthshaking event which comes with thunder, lightning and trumpets. It will be their moment of conversion and the greatest day of their lives. Peter describes it here:
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
What I have explained above is a quick summary of the pathway to salvation which Christ causes His Elect to follow during their lifetimes. They will keep all the sayings of the prophecy of the book of Revelation which teaches the pathway to salvation (Rev 22:7). Revelation is not teaching on future events which take place out in the world. It is teaching on the spiritual events which the Elect will experience as they travel the pathway to salvation. For the Elect, Christ will "come quickly" to them before they physically die. They are chosen and blessed for this honor of being a First Fruit of His harvest.
As for everyone else, they will die in their sins and upon their resurrection, they will be rejected by Christ and cast into His judgment (the Lake of Fire). At that time, they will be judged by the Law which says that the penalty they must pay is death. However, before they perish, Christ will show His mercy to them and will give them the Early and Latter Rains (Joel chapter 2). At that time, they will hear the call of Christ and His Bride and will be saved:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
After the last person is saved, this scripture will be testified to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Joe
Dear Jack,
How is having only one eye going to make anyone have faith in Christ?
Do you understand what Christ is actually teaching in the verse you quoted?
Here is what I "see":
Mankind is born carnally minded and because of such, mankind can only understand scripture in a carnal and outward way. However, God's Word is spiritual and the truth it teaches can only be understood spiritually.
Here is the full portion of scripture you quoted:
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
The Hand represents mankind's "works" and the Foot represents walking by (living by) these "works". "Works" is the crooked way of the crooked serpent and cannot save a person.
Similarly, the Eye represents how we understand scripture. If we understand it carnally, the truth will remain concealed.
Christ's message He is teaching is that to be saved, we must not walk by our works or understand God's Word carnally. To be saved, a believer must discard their carnal ways so that they can walk by faith and be sanctified by the truth.
Here is another example of the spiritual language of scripture:
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.
Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?
The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined:
1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...
From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.
Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out” and enter the church), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.
The baptism of Fire (Christ's judgment) is necessary for our salvation:
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
For that reason, Christ will judge all mankind since Christ is going to save all mankind:
Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Joe
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