Does God love burning people in hell?
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Okay, well, I say that the spirit we have will exist, one way or the other, into eternity (future), and that is one of the ways that we are created in the image of God.
Regarding our bodies, I totally agree. But our spirits... Admittedly, it's a little difficult to put into words. The two are fundamentally together and inseparable; the body cannot function without the spirit. But in a different but fundamental way, the two are distinct from one another; our actual selves are distinct from our bodies. You might think of all the places and ways in which Paul distinguishes between body and spirit:
* One of the most notable is Romans 7, where, after talking about the sinful human condition and applying it to himself, he asks (really laments), "Who will deliver me from this body of death?" We ~ we ~ need to be delivered from our bodies.
* Another is Ephesians 2, where, in talking about how we are saved and the mercy we have received, he says, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ... and raises us up with Him... so that in the coming ages He might show..." Well, our bodies, since our birth, were always alive, but yet we ~ we ~ were made alive (together with Christ)... he's speaking of our true selves, our spirits.
* And everything comes in threes, right? :) Kidding... But a third place is 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul says, "...we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." We shall be changed; the perishable body ~ not the spirit ~ will put on the imperishable. He's speaking of the resurrection at the end of the age, in which our bodies will literally be resurrected and reunited with our selves, our spirits ~ which, until that time, will have been in heaven with Jesus ~ and eternity, the age to come, will begin.
We also see this distinction from God Himself through the prophet Ezekiel in chapter 37 of his prophecy. The valley of dry bones... such a beautiful piece of Scripture... But God says there to Ezekiel, "I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD." This is really a picture of our salvation... God raises us from the dead... but still, the sinews and flesh are laid upon us, our selves.
Even before all this, going back to Adam and then Eve, they were created with bodies (Adam was formed from dust, Eve from Adam's rib), but those bodies did not have life in them until God "breathed life into them" ~ put their spirits into their bodies.
Okay that was longer than I meant it to be... :)
Sure...
Disagree. I think Paul would, too (and of course God is the ultimate Author of all Scripture; it is God-breathed), most clearly in Ephesians 2, where, in writing to the Christians alive and in Ephesus at the time (and to us by extension), "...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ..." and in 1 Peter 1, where Peter writes, "According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead..." This is indisputably past tense; we Christians have been born again. Yes, there is a sense that both are true... we have been saved but are also being saved. But if you are a Christian, you can rest in that present reality... and future certainty.
His body, yes. See above.
That's not the reason Jesus tells the parable, no. But that it depicts a conscious awareness of the present state of the physically deceased, and the desires regarding at least two things (that they would rather be "in Abraham's bosom" rather than where they are, and that others would be admonished to avoid the same predicament) is... Well, it can be disputed, as anything can, but I wouldn't advise it. :)
Well, I agree, but they convey a larger truth of reality... and depict at least some aspects of that reality... and in various cases either exhort to obtain a particular reality or, in this case, warn to avoid that particular reality.
Grace and peace to you.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
When I consider what you've written above, and then compare that with what you had written previously in the same post, in order to be consistent you will now have to make a case for pre-existence. That this life is the result of a type of reincarnation. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Uh huh. So all the dead from all ages are alive and well in Abraham's bosom. I hope you don't think that is literal. But whatever it is, it must be big. It also is right next door, within a short distance, to hell where the wicked are in torment, even before they have been judged. And even though there might be a chasm between the two places, everyone can clearly see each other, and presumably hear each other, one side screaming in agony, the other delirious with joy... Despite the distractions from the other side. All literal of course. The Jews probably believed it because it was okay if their own traditions to accept such nonsense, but I don't. And I don't believe Jesus did either, He was using their own pagan myth to prove a point... Their own hypocrisy.
No, just God's people.
A CERTAIN begger, a CERTAIN rich man, Moses, Abraham ... Yep absolutely literal. Doesn't say anything about being a parable.
It doesn't say Lazarus can see the rich man.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
IT IS NOT A PARABLE!
This is not symbolic language, and is to be taken literally. Why?
Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people, like Abraham, nor his spiritual location. Prior to Christ death and resurrection, Sheol was divided into two locations, one for the faithful to God and the other for the unfaithful, wicked reprobates.
It is also clear that the Rich man and Lazarus are real souls!
The Rich man's location is therefore real.
>Why describe two separate and distinct locations that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolize something else if they did not exist?
>What moral truth would be gained from something abstract?
Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories!
The message to all is a stark warning. This Rich man died and went to a place of loneliness, fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he asleep. He was conscious! He asks for water, a drop, because when Lazarus was alive, he begged for scraps of food. Notice how the Rich man's pride is no longer with him - he is humbled. I don't know, if it is real humility or just an act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy, to receive more than a drop. When he realized there would be no relief for him, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers ( who were also real people) to warn them of this place.
> Abraham also made it clear thatbthese two locations were separated by a gulf(chasm) that no one from either location could pass over!
> The last line of the story points to another reality and parallel to this story, Jesus death and resurrection.
This whole story alludes also to judgments throughout the Bible that speak of fire and torment that ultimately leads to destruction. There is no hope for that Rich man or anyone else who is cast there, no second chance, no Purgatory, no, no redemption. This is what death means without faith in God, which is the primary reason we have a Savior. But we must believe that He is our Savior.
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People say its not a parable when it is.
You have to choose what it is youre gonna believe.
Yes. @Brakelite
Would you consider a place where God dwells a realm?
Realm
a field or domain of activity or interest.
"the realm of applied chemistry"
You have to choose what it is youre gonna believe.
Yes. @Brakelite
Would you consider a place where God dwells a realm?
Realm
a field or domain of activity or interest.
"the realm of applied chemistry"
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Death never means cease to exist in the Bible.
1 Timothy 5
6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.
But many will wish they ceased to exist!
Rev "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and ever"
What??? LOL! My goodness. Well, I'm not going to even hazard a guess how you got here, but, hey, good for you for not buying in to pre-existence or reincarnation. LOL! Seriously, though, you sound a bit like Nicodemus in John 3. :)
Grace and peace to you.
I see no reason to believe otherwise. Jesus warned us several times.
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Hmmm, interesting. :)
Well, I don't know if you're a Calvinist or not (I am), but John Calvin believed it was a historical event also. There was disagreement on this even back then and before, and continues even today. I disagree (yes, even as a Calvinist, I disagree with him on this point)...
...because, a.) Luke introduces the story the same way he does the four parables that precede it, including the prodigal son; all are introduced with the generalizing formula “a certain woman/man..." (Luke 15:3, 15:8, 15:11, and 16:1), and b.) the poor man is named Lazarus, an abbreviated form of Eliezer, which means “God helps,” which magnifies his deep physical need and his even much deeper spiritual need
...But I do agree with Calvin that it really matters not whether or not this is a parable or an historical event, that the main issue is comprehending "the doctrine which it contains."
Absolutely.
Grace and peace to you.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Earlier in Luke 16 there were other parables...
1 ¶ And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods...
And in the previous chapter there is...
11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:
I have never heard anyone attempt to claim the story of the prodigal son or the one above as a true story. Yet neither parable is illogical or unable to be lived out in real life. Yet Luke 16, which contains incidents totally contradictory to common logic (like the saved and lost being able to talk to one another, see one another, while the lost is in torment) is presented as literal. On the basis of 'certain'? Sorry, that is not conclusive enough to prove anything. There are many features of the Rich man and Lazarus that have powerful symbolic lessons...it isn't an explanation of the after-life. It's a lesson to the Pharisees on salvation, and like other parables reveals how difficult it is for anyone to rely on wealth, birth, privilege to be saved. It was also a rebuke to the Pharisees for not sharing the truths of their religion with the peoples around them. (The 'dogs'). Not even crumbs.
Aaah, but the rich man can see Abraham and Lazarus. And Abraham can both see and speak to the rich man. I presume of Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, then they are both in the same place. Splitting hairs doesn't make the parable am historical factual event. Even though in your desperation to justify God torturing people for all eternity, you would have it so.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Well, I am glad you also deny such a thing. However, you said God breathed into Adam the breath of life which elsewhere you equate to our 'real self', which enjoys the pleasure and sights of heaven and hell after death. The next logical step is to accept that the 'real self' with conscious awareness after death, is the same before birth.
Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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