Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm glad you've found balance.

My wife is a prophetess. She is always foretelling my future.....

It isn't that she actually knows what I'm going to do...... I'm scared of her. She is mean........ and I like it. :)

I've said for years that it is okay to be "hen pecked" if you're being "pecked" by the right hen.

Submission is a two way street. Submitting to each other produces UNITY. If you're UNITED. You speak the same things.

But just like Jesus is the head of the church, so is the husband the head over the woman! If she isn't 100% the bible says to not listen fo rthe Lord hasn't spoken to her.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You know that isn't in your Bible anywhere. That is you conflation.

Let me post it again for you brother:

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

These prophesying daughters would have to obey this rule set forth by the Apostle Paul when they entered the church.

Period end of story!

 

[marks]

But she did not hold the Office of a deacon.

“For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 3:13)

1 Timothy 3:8-13 KJV
8) Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9) Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10) And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11) Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13) For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Are you aware that "office of a deacon" is from a single word, διακονέω. You could just as well say, "deaconship". It means the role of being a deacon. Like Pheobe, a deacon of the church.

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

1 Timothy 3:8-13 KJV
8) Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9) Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10) And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11) Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13) For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Are you aware that "office of a deacon" is from a single word, διακονέω. You could just as well say, "deaconship". It means the role of being a deacon. Like Pheobe, a deacon of the church.

Much love!

I have gone more than two rounds with you on this.

Be blessed.

I’ll pray for you!

 

[marks]

Fair enough, I will grant you that. But I would say, based on the rest of Scripture, it was clearly also a principle.

While it is a clearly established pattern, yet there are exceptions, like Deborah. If you consider that God does not allow women leaders, they you have to account for the women who were leaders.

If you mistake a factual statement for a command imperative, then you end up with conflict.

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

It explains that you trust men. I don't.

I trust men? I get my teaching from Scripture. So if that is what you call trusting men....

 

[reformed1689]

While it is a clearly established pattern, yet there are exceptions, like Deborah. If you consider that God does not allow women leaders, they you have to account for the women who were leaders.

If you mistake a factual statement for a command imperative, then you end up with conflict.

Much love!

I agree. But what was Deborah leading? What was her actual role?

 

[marks]

And this is where you run into the issue of assigning meaning without context. Only one translation of my top translations says deacon. All others say servant. There is a difference in the office of Deacon and a servant. Usage determines meaning. There is no reason to believe Phoebe is an officer of the church in this passage.

Meaning without context? Paul trusted his letter to Rome with her. Servant or deacon, it's translating the same word. Actually, that's not true.

Deacon is not a translation, its a transliteration. It's just writing the Greek word with English letters. The translation is servant. There is no difference. If you are a diakonon of the church, you are (By transliteration) a deacon of the church, and by translation, a servant of the church.

Again, this just comes down to understanding what the passage does and does not say. Either she was a deacon - diakonon - or not.

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

Meaning without context? Paul trusted his letter to Rome with her. Servant or deacon, it's translating the same word. Actually, that's not true.

Deacon is not a translation, its a tranliteration. It's just writing the Greek word with English letters. The translation is servant. There is no difference. If you are a diakonon of the church, you are (By transliteration) a deacon of the church, and by translation, a servant of the church.

Again, this just comes down to understanding what the passage does and does not say. Either she was a deacon - diakonon - or not.

Much love!

Again, USAGE determines meaning. And no, the word is not deacon, it is deaconess (if you want to get absolutely technical). But there is nothing to say she had any official standing in the church, was just being of service to the church. That is different than the office of Deacon being described in his other Epistles.

 

[marks]

Ever wonder why Agabus came to prophesy to Paul even though these daughters where already with Paul?

Maybe he had business in the same town. Whatever reason you choose, it will be an argument from silence.

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Meaning without context? Paul trusted his letter to Rome with her. Servant or deacon, it's translating the same word. Actually, that's not true.

Deacon is not a translation, its a tranliteration. It's just writing the Greek word with English letters. The translation is servant. There is no difference. If you are a diakonon of the church, you are (By transliteration) a deacon of the church, and by translation, a servant of the church.

Again, this just comes down to understanding what the passage does and does not say. Either she was a deacon - diakonon - or not.

Much love!

According to your logic in this passage there were “deacons” at this wedding!!

“His mother saith unto the servants [deacons], Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.” (John 2:5-6)

 

[marks]

I have gone more than two rounds with you on this.

Be blessed.

I’ll pray for you!

Thank you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I agree. But what was Deborah leading? What was her actual role?

Judges 4:4-5 KJV
4) And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
5) And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Judge of Israel, 2nd in lead of Israel under God Himself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, USAGE determines meaning. And no, the word is not deacon, it is deaconess (if you want to get absolutely technical). But there is nothing to say she had any official standing in the church, was just being of service to the church. That is different than the office of Deacon being described in his other Epistles.

Deacons have deaconships. Pheobe's deaconship was to the church at Cenchrea. In a deaconship, you have a deacon, which makes it so.

She is given official standing in Paul's declaration. That's why he said it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

According to your logic in this passage there were “deacons” at this wedding!!

“His mother saith unto the servants [deacons], Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.” (John 2:5-6)

That's right! Deacon is the English transliteration of the Greek word for servant. So when we say, the deacons/servants of the wedding, and when we say deacon/servant of the church, both clarify their meaning in the context.

Maybe the best way to settle the matter in you mind is continue to look at every place the word is used. That's what I do anyway.

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

Judges 4:4-5 KJV
4) And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
5) And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Judge of Israel, 2nd in lead of Israel under God Himself.

Much love!

And is that the same as the church? I don't think so. The judges were primarily military leaders.

 

[marks]

Again, USAGE determines meaning. And no, the word is not deacon, it is deaconess (if you want to get absolutely technical). But there is nothing to say she had any official standing in the church, was just being of service to the church. That is different than the office of Deacon being described in his other Epistles.

So let me ask the similar question in a different way. Seeing that she is called a deacon, how this not the "office of a deacon"?

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

Deacons have deaconships. Pheobe's deaconship was to the church at Cenchrea. In a deaconship, you have a deacon, which makes it so.

She is given official standing in Paul's declaration. That's why he said it.

Much love!

Now who is reading something into the text? Paul did not say she had an official standing, he just said she was a servant of the church and helper of many and to give her whatever she needed. It does not say she held an office.

 

[reformed1689]

So let me ask the similar question in a different way. Seeing that she is called a deacon, how this not the "office of a deacon"?

Much love!

Usage determines meaning. The office of deacon is described only in a couple of passages. And the term deacon is used there. everywhere else different terms are used when it is clearly not the office of the deacon.

 

[marks]

And is that the same as the church? I don't think so. The judges were primarily military leaders.

Same as the church? No. Just looking at general leadership roles at this point.

Although the judges were not just military leaders.

Judges 4:5 KJV
And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Much love!