Data On The Trinity

[Peterlag]

A mocking Spirit reminds me of a video of a pastor who late in life rejected the trinity. He said trinitarianism does not bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. That's a profound observation! Exchanges with Christophany are typical; trinitarians cannot admit ANY valid arguments or Scriptural evidence against the trinity.

Jesus never taught the trinity and said he has a God, who is the only true God. This is one of many proof texts against the trinity. Why is that not good enough for trinitarians? Because they violate the 1C & 2C. There are 4 pillars that undermine their inherently contradictory doctrine at every turn:

1. Definitions. Sons are created beings. God is eternal and cannot die. The absurdity of parsing synonyms, like a person with a Being. Converses are not equal. 'Son of God' is not equal to 'God The Son.' Jesus is not called the Son of the Father. ;)
2. Logic. 3 is not 1. Ambiguous verses, not coming close to saying 'Jesus is God' are falsely taken as superseding explicit verses, like 1 COR 8:6, 'For us, there is one God, the Father,' which they deny have any implications for the trinity. Hard to imagine a more anti-trinitarian set of words.
3. Language Usage. Many juxtapositions of God (to be read, "in his unitarian nature" for emphasis) and Jesus, e.g., 1 COR 11:3. If Jesus were God, there would not be 1 single juxtaposition in Scripture. Who so loved the world in John 3:16 that he gave his son? Not 'the Father.'
4. Scripture. The trinity is not in the Bible, not the word and not the concept. This is because Scripture is written by unitarian Jews who wrote unitarian text. Every Epistle explicitly identifies God alone as the Father and nowhere is God identified as anyone else. Thus, trinitarians have to ignore such explicit verses and read their doctrine into more ambiguous verses.

I've read the Gospel of John numerous times. It dawned on me the truth was the opposite of how trinitarians categorize it, juxtaposing it compared to the 3 Synoptic Gospels. The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the entire Bible. Only here is Jesus recorded as admitting he has a God, who is the only true God, who sent him and told him what to say and how to say it, etc. Absurd to suppose God incarnate would say such things. This video brilliantly addresses the much relied on prologue.

This is what caught my eye...

1.) A mocking spirit
2.) trinitarianism does not bring forth the fruit of the spirit.

They seem cold when they talk to me. No real love the way they treat me and mock me. I'm beginning to think many of these sites are controlled by evil spirits. They just look for an excuse to delete my post or delete me from the site. The last one was because I was told I'm using large print along with bold print. I don't even know how to do that if I wanted to and I have not seen any need for it. Again, just mean false accusing stuff. What kind of people do that on a Christian site?

 

[Wrangler]

This is what caught my eye...

1.) A mocking spirit
2.) trinitarianism does not bring forth the fruit of the spirit.

They seem cold when they talk to me. No real love the way they treat me and mock me. I'm beginning to think many of these sites are controlled by evil spirits. They just look for an excuse to delete my post or delete me from the site.

 

[Peterlag]

Which forum

I deleted it from my computer or I would tell you. Out of 20 that I looked at I was told by half that I was already banned from other sites so they must work together or own many of them. Some of those half told me I'm insane because I do not believe Jesus is God so I can't join. Others have asked to read my book and then after looking at it have banned me from their site. I feel pretty good about all of this. It's good company to be cast out, stoned, burned at the steak or crucified.

 

[Peterlag]

I just found these guys for the first time a few months ago and listened to about 5 or 6 hours of them. I was pleased to learn there are others like me.

 

[Peterlag]

Here's some data on the pronouns that are in the Bible that refer to “God” which are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound, International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.

The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.

The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.

 

[ChristisGod]

I deleted it from my computer or I would tell you. Out of 20 that I looked at I was told by half that I was already banned from other sites so they must work together or own many of them. Some of those half told me I'm insane because I do not believe Jesus is God so I can't join. Others have asked to read my book and then after looking at it have banned me from their site. I feel pretty good about all of this. It's good company to be cast out, stoned, burned at the steak or crucified.

any way to link me to your book ?

 

[ChristisGod]

I deleted it from my computer or I would tell you. Out of 20 that I looked at I was told by half that I was already banned from other sites so they must work together or own many of them. Some of those half told me I'm insane because I do not believe Jesus is God so I can't join. Others have asked to read my book and then after looking at it have banned me from their site. I feel pretty good about all of this. It's good company to be cast out, stoned, burned at the steak or crucified.

BTW- its horrible the way you were treated. I've actively posted on 3 christian forums the past 20 years and each of them has sections where you can debate unitarianism or modalism vs trinitarianism. Some areas on sites have designated areas for those types of posts and debates to take place.

 

[Peterlag]

BTW- its horrible the way you were treated. I've actively posted on 3 christian forums the past 20 years and each of them has sections where you can debate unitarianism or modalism vs trinitarianism. Some areas on sites have designated areas for those types of posts and debates to take place.

I love you brother. But here's a different thought. What if you are more powerful in the Scriptures than the Administrators that are debating with you?

 

[Peterlag]

any way to link me to your book ?

My online stuff is free to look at... www.carb-fat.com/jesus.html

 

[farouk]

The deity of Christ and the wondrous truth of God in Three Persons are deeply present in Scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

The deity of Christ and the wondrous truth of God in Three Persons are deeply present in Scripture.

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture.

 

[farouk]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture.

You are wrong in what you say about the Deity of Christ.

Hebrews 1 says: 'Unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever'. There are many similar verses.

God in Three Persons is deeply present in Scripture: end of Matthew 28; John's Gospel throughout; John's First Epistle; Romans 8, etc.

But once these things are being repeatedly denied, there really is no point in continuing any dialogue.

 

[ChristisGod]

My online stuff is free to look at... www.carb-fat.com/jesus.html

thanks I will take a look

 

[Peterlag]

You are wrong in what you say about the Deity of Christ.

Hebrews 1 says: 'Unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever'. There are many similar verses.

God in Three Persons is deeply present in Scripture: end of Matthew 28; John's Gospel throughout; John's First Epistle; Romans 8, etc.

But once these things are being repeatedly denied, there really is no point in continuing any dialogue.

Did you want me to respond to Hebrews 1, Matthew 28, 1 John, Romans 8 or have you decided there's no point in such a dialogue?

 

[Keiw]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

The new Catholic encyclopedia-1967-Vol XIV page 299--- The formulation one God in three persons, was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective((( of God being a trinity)

381 the council of Constantinople a trinity god was added. Neither the apostles nor Jesus or any Israelite that ever served the true God served a trinity god. Why? Because the Abrahamic God is a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah)-- All serving the trinity are being mislead into breaking Gods # 1 commandment daily--It does not exist.

 

[Peterlag]

The new Catholic encyclopedia-1967-Vol XIV page 299--- The formulation one God in three persons, was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective((( of God being a trinity)

381 the council of Constantinople a trinity god was added. Neither the apostles nor Jesus or any Israelite that ever served the true God served a trinity god. Why? Because the Abrahamic God is a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah)-- All serving the trinity are being mislead into breaking Gods # 1 commandment daily--It does not exist.

I could not have written it better myself than the way you posted it.

 

[MatthewG]

A lot of people have been taught about the trinity.

It is something that I do not care about that much anymore really...

What is important is for people to know and learn the truth about what the Bible says about God, the Word of God, The Holy Spirit of God, Jesus, and that would be the most important.

The key phrase being that "If a person wants to learn and know and grow in those things."

Man made traditions are hard to wash away, compared to our sins that were forgiven before we were born which when a person become born again, learns to die to sin by the spirit... to be able to live spiritually though this flesh always fails.

 

[BeyondET]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

Neither is the name Mars,Saturn, Jupiter etc. Doesn't mean other planets are not real

 

[Peterlag]

Neither is the name Mars,Saturn, Jupiter etc. Doesn't mean other planets are not real

Oh so then we can make up whatever we can dream up and then teach it like if it's doctrine? Are you Catholic?

 

[Peterlag]

A lot of people have been taught about the trinity.

It is something that I do not care about that much anymore really...

What is important is for people to know and learn the truth about what the Bible says about God, the Word of God, The Holy Spirit of God, Jesus, and that would be the most important.

The key phrase being that "If a person wants to learn and know and grow in those things."

Man made traditions are hard to wash away, compared to our sins that were forgiven before we were born which when a person become born again, learns to die to sin by the spirit... to be able to live spiritually though this flesh always fails.

I'm not sure if I can find anything in the Bible that says we can or should die to the flesh. But since I like you I will give you my very own book if you would enjoy reading it. www.carb-fat.com/jesus.html