Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ouch!
How does that feel?

[
ouch that is not his fault . If a man cometh to spread the truth amongst people
but said people reject or fall , it is not the fault of the man who warned and reminded
its the fault and the very fault lies upon those who rejected . keep that in mind .
and let none of us ever heed another word of this seeker friendly lets change the way we evanglize camp .
Cause that way DONT WORK . just speak the truth , if it offends it offends and unto those who recieve it amen .
You aint , I aint , GOD . we cannot give the increase but by grace we can and should and must speak the truth .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why do you quote this verse, Amigo?
our dear sister marvelous quaoted it , though i also did too .
Why did i quoate that scripture .
the same reason i would quoate them all , they are meat for our soul and ever word of GOD
works to the good of those who take heed .
But a real good reason also that i would post
that scrip is due to this reason .
Most folks think they follow the LOVE of GOD but rather follow a love that is of the world .
Now their version of love is fast to not correct , and to rebuke those who would correct error witin the church .
They see correction of sins as being judgmental and hateful . Not realizing of course
that uncorrected leaven only leavens up the lump . as error begets more error .
I just wanted to remind us that it is hateful to allow one to drown in sin and deception .
IF your grandchildren or great grand children
were going down to skate on the a frozen pond . And boy they sure did love to skate .
And they came down and I Was there . AND I KNEW the ice they were about to skate on was thin ice
and had bad patches , TELL ME what do you think i should do .
Just hug them and tell them all is well , and let them skate .
OR SHOULD I HAVE DONE all to warn those kids to NOT get on that ice
Tell me parents , grandparents and etc
IF your own lovely children went down to a pond to skate on ice
and i was there and i behaved JUST LIKE a lot of churches
and said to the kids , OH ye are fine , no worries , GOD is love you just skate away
and then they did and the ice broke through and they drowned .
TELL ME , YOU GONNA TELL ME I WAS LOVING THOSE KIDS cause i didnt correct them . You gonna say that .
I didnt think so . SO remember that the next time a pastor or anyone tries to say judge not and correct not
to those in sin and error and even in unbelief . Cause the end of sin BE DEATH . and i sure dont see the love
of GOD in those in who allow people to PRATICE SIN and believe its fine and okay or to tell others it dont matter
what religon you believe . I JUST DONT SEE ANY LOVE IN THAT when the END OF THAT IS DEATH .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am still cautious about that phraseology. Though we stand before God as individuals, Doctrine is not an individual choice or perception. It is binding upon all who call on the name of Christ. There are few exceptions where personal liberty is allowed, but those are few.
look at all those lovely children in that photo .
Tell me something .
Had any of them went to go skate on thin ice and i was there and did not warn them , correct them
but allowed them to just skate
WHEN the ice breaks through and they drown , HOW LOVING YOU GONNA say i was then . and you would
be right , I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN LOVING AT ALL to those kids , cause i didnt try and correct them , to stop them .
NOW lets apply that to the CHURCH shall we .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I leave it in God's hands. He will do what he wants with it. I fulfilled his mission, and that's the best I can do.
very wise my friend . you cannot and i cannot give the increase . but by grace we sure can speak the truth .
speak the truth and leave it all in the hands of the LORD . Who soever hears amen and who so ever rejects
its on them . We must follow the pattern left to us in said bible by Christ and the apostels .
IF what you spoke to them was truth . THEN by grace YOU DID your job . IF they fell that was on them , NOT YOU .
Just speak the truth my friend .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime
J

Johann

Guest
God divided up my 27 years as a pastor among 7 churches. He moved me around a lot. He called me to be a little like Jeremiah to dying churches for scattering the seeds of spiritual renewal. Two of those churches have now closed. I was sent to them to give them the need to reach out to the lost, which they weren't doing. Once I shared God's messages, he sent me with the same ministry to the others. Ezekiel 33 is comforting to me, since I was like the watchman on the city's wall. Once I shared the truth, it was no longer my responsibility before God how they received it.
I find it quite amazing almost no one knows what an outreach ministry is, putting Matthew 25 and James in action.

J.
 

Marvelloustime

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2020
6,549
11,598
113
Heaven bound
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
look at all those lovely children in that photo .
Tell me something .
Had any of them went to go skate on thin ice and i was there and did not warn them , correct them
but allowed them to just skate
WHEN the ice breaks through and they drown , HOW LOVING YOU GONNA say i was then . and you would
be right , I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN LOVING AT ALL to those kids , cause i didnt try and correct them , to stop them .
NOW lets apply that to the CHURCH shall we .
save-image.png
 
  • Love
Reactions: amigo de christo

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,936
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am still cautious about that phraseology. Though we stand before God as individuals, Doctrine is not an individual choice or perception. It is binding upon all who call on the name of Christ. There are few exceptions where personal liberty is allowed, but those are few.
Doctrine is man-made. There is no salvation in doctrine. Unless humankind can save you.


[
 

Marvelloustime

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2020
6,549
11,598
113
Heaven bound
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
very wise my friend . you cannot and i cannot give the increase . but by grace we sure can speak the truth .
speak the truth and leave it all in the hands of the LORD . Who soever hears amen and who so ever rejects
its on them . We must follow the pattern left to us in said bible by Christ and the apostels .
IF what you spoke to them was truth . THEN by grace YOU DID your job . IF they fell that was on them , NOT YOU .
Just speak the truth my friend .
save-image.png
 
  • Love
Reactions: amigo de christo

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,936
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us)

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1)

This tells three things about the Logos.
1) The Logos was from the beginning.
2) The Logos was with God.
3) The Logos was God.

Our knee-jerk thought is to jump to the meaning that Christ was the Logos.
Which is true by extension. But what was the Logos BEFORE the Logos became flesh?

Strong's Greek 3056 3056. logos Strong's Concordance logos: a word (as embodying an idea)

The Logos as embodying an idea, the logic, the reason, the meaning.

[
 
  • Like
Reactions: amigo de christo

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us)

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1)

This tells three things about the Logos.
1) The Logos was from the beginning.
2) The Logos was with God.
3) The Logos was God.

Our knee-jerk thought is to jump to the meaning that Christ was the Logos.
Which is true by extension. But what was the Logos BEFORE the Logos became flesh?

Strong's Greek 3056 3056. logos Strong's Concordance logos: a word (as embodying an idea)

The Logos as embodying an idea, the logic, the reason, the meaning.

[
God is SPIRIT , HE IS HIS SPIRIT , HE is HIS ESSENCE . CHRIST IS THIS ESSENCE .
Just as there is NOT two seperate spirits oF GOD one of GOD one of CHRIST . ITS ONE SPIRIT the SPIRIT IS THE SAME .
GOD is not seperate from HIS own being , His own essence .
HE IS HIS ESSENCE and HIS ESSENCE BE HE .
Its just HIS WORD became flesh .
It is as a man who went to the beach to see the ocean .
FRom this great ocean he drew water into a bucket and brought the bucket
back into His class room . HE then says class this water IS the OCEAN . And the class laughs him to scorn
SO he takes the class to the ocean
and pours that same water ocean back into the ocean and says SEE CLASS , I TOLD YOU that water was the ocean .
Just cause it was put into a bucket dont mean its all of a sudden a different kind of created water from that ocean .
NO SIR ITS THE SAME WATER . GOD IS HIS WORD , HE IS HIS SPIRIT.
HE SPOKE and it was created . BY HIS SPIRIT THROUGH HIS WORD . same thing . This is why it also
says JESUS CREATED . same deal my friend . Have a wondeful day .
OH speaking of this COMFORTER , THE HOLY SPIRIT
lets take note that JESUS himself says ME AND MY FATHER WILL MAKE OUR ABODE with that man .
SAME SPIRIT . that same SPIRIT that JESUS says IS WITH YOU and shall be IN YOU . I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS
I WILL COME UNTO YOU .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime
J

Johann

Guest
In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1)
Here are some thoughts to build on.

The concept of the Logos (Greek: Λόγος, "Word") is well-known from John 1:1 where it states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." While this idea is explicitly linked to Jesus Christ in Christian theology, the roots of this concept can be traced back to Jewish thought and ancient rabbinical writings. However, the term “Logos” itself, a Greek philosophical term, is not used in Jewish texts; instead, the Hebrew term "Memra" (Aramaic: מֵימְרָא) serves a similar role in early Jewish exegesis. Here's how the Logos can be understood in connection with ancient Jewish thought:

1. The Memra in Targums (Aramaic Translations)
The term "Memra," which means "word" in Aramaic, was frequently used in the Targums—early Aramaic translations and interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Memra represents the divine Word, a distinct agent of God who acts in creation, revelation, and salvation. In several places where God’s interaction with the world is mentioned, the Targums often insert the "Memra" as the intermediary. This reflects a rabbinical understanding that God’s direct interaction with the world could be mediated through His Word.

Examples:
Genesis 1:27 (Targum Onkelos): "And the Memra of the Lord created man in His likeness."
Exodus 19:17 (Targum Neofiti): "And Moses brought the people out to meet the Memra of the Lord."
In these examples, the "Memra" acts almost as a divine agent in a similar way that the Logos does in John 1:1-3, where the Word is said to create all things. This demonstrates that Jewish thought already had an understanding of God's Word functioning as a creative and revelatory force.

2. Philo of Alexandria – Logos as Mediator
Philo of Alexandria (circa 20 BCE – 50 CE), a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, was one of the most influential figures in the Jewish world who developed the idea of the Logos. Philo wrote extensively on the concept of the Logos, blending Greek philosophy (particularly Stoicism and Platonism) with Jewish theology. He described the Logos as the mediator between the transcendent God and the material world, a bridge between the infinite and the finite.

Philo viewed the Logos as the first-born of God, a divine reason or rational principle that orders and sustains the universe. For Philo, the Logos was not equivalent to God Himself but was rather a distinct aspect of God’s activity. He referred to the Logos as:

The "image" of God (cf. Genesis 1:26)
The first-born Son of God (prefiguring Christian language)
An intermediary between God and the world
The high priest who brings humanity closer to God
Philo's Influence:
Philo's writings predate the New Testament, and his understanding of the Logos as an intermediary might have influenced John's Gospel. While Philo's Logos is not personal in the same way that Jesus is, the conceptual parallels are striking. Philo emphasizes the Logos as the rational principle by which God interacts with and sustains the universe, much as the New Testament portrays Jesus as the divine Logos through whom all things were made (John 1:3).

3. The "Dabar" in the Hebrew Scriptures
While Logos is a Greek term, its Hebrew counterpart in Jewish tradition is Dabar (דָּבָר), which also means "word" or "speech." In the Hebrew Bible, Dabar is more than just spoken words; it often represents the active and powerful Word of God that brings about His will. This understanding closely parallels the concept of the Logos as a divine agent.

Examples of Dabar as an active force:
Creation: Psalm 33:6 (NKJV), "By the word (Dabar) of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." Here, God’s Word (Dabar) is the active agent in creation, reflecting the idea that the Logos is the Creator.
Revelation: The prophets frequently describe the Dabar Yahweh (Word of the Lord) as coming to them. It was through this Word that God revealed His will to His people.

In Isaiah 55:11 (NKJV), God’s Word is described as something that accomplishes what He desires:
"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."
This active, creative, and purposeful Dabar reflects the Logos as an eternal force through which God’s will is enacted.

4. The Angel of the Lord – A Theophany of the Logos?
In many Jewish writings and commentaries, the "Angel of the Lord" was seen as a mysterious and sometimes divine figure who speaks on behalf of God, often using God’s own words in the first person. Some rabbis viewed this Angel not as a mere messenger, but as a manifestation of God's presence, which has led some scholars to see this as a precursor to the Logos.

Examples:
Exodus 3:2: The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in the burning bush and spoke as God, saying, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Genesis 22:11-12: The Angel of the Lord stops Abraham from sacrificing Isaac and speaks directly as God: "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
These appearances suggest a kind of divine mediation, akin to the Logos in John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

5. Rabbinical Writings and the Wisdom Literature
In Rabbinic Judaism, while the term Logos is not used, the notion of divine wisdom (chokmah) being a creative agent or intermediary is often present. Wisdom literature (such as Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the apocryphal Book of Wisdom) personifies wisdom in a way that bears similarities to how John’s Gospel speaks of Christ as the Logos.

Proverbs 8:22-31:
Wisdom says, "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old... I was beside Him, as a master craftsman."
This portrayal of Wisdom as a pre-existent entity involved in creation parallels how the Logos is depicted in John 1:1-3. The rabbis understood wisdom as something intrinsic to God, but some later interpretations, especially in Christian thought, see this wisdom personified in Christ.


While ancient rabbinical writings do not explicitly reference the Greek term Logos, they contain many concepts that resonate with the New Testament's portrayal of Christ as the divine Word. The Memra of the Targums, Dabar in the Hebrew Scriptures, and the personified Wisdom of Proverbs all reflect a Jewish tradition that God’s Word or Wisdom is not just a spoken entity but an active, powerful agent of creation and revelation.

The Logos in John’s Gospel can be seen as building upon these Jewish theological concepts, with Philo’s Logos as a philosophical intermediary and the Memra and Dabar as a divine, creative, and revelatory force. In Christian thought, the Logos ultimately becomes fully personified in Jesus Christ, who is seen as the eternal Word made flesh (John 1:14), revealing God to the world.


J.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Lambano

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
8,529
11,648
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I said in the OP, "Spirituality is an individualized journey."
What does "Spirituality" even mean? Serious question, what does it really mean?

I first heard the phrase "I'm not religious; I'm spiritual" from this ditzy girl whose apartment loft my college drinking buddy Mr. Bill sub-leased. She was into crystals and other New Age crap. I remember going out on a double-date, me and this girl I met studying the heavenly bodies in my astronomy class, her and this guy who saw auras. I think I still have Aura-reader's professional business card somewhere. He said my aura was a warm red, but my girlfriend's was a cold blue, so we weren't compatible. The auras were right; we soon split up.

I'm hearing the mantra, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" again these days. It's usually just a reaction (though probably a quite reasonable one) to the state of organized religion in the U.S. these days. What is it they're really looking for?
 
Last edited:

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
8,529
11,648
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's usually just a reaction to the state of organized religion in the U.S. these days.
When I first started up our church's website, the very first email I received at the "contact us" account was from some organization called 2 Peter something-or-other warning that God was soon going to judge the Organized Church. We'd just fired our pastor, we'd had a board meeting or two degenerate into shouting matches, and members were leaving in droves. I wrote Second Pete back and told him we didn't have anything to worry about; we were definitely NOT an organized church.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,936
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
St. SteVen said:
As I said in the OP, "Spirituality is an individualized journey."
What does "Spirituality" even mean? Serious question, what does it really mean?
Good question.
The term "Spirituality" certainly has a broader context than what I am driving at.
I was looking for a term that differentiated between surface-level religion and a spiritual transformation.
There are probably better terms than I chose. (open to suggestions) Let's discuss.

I see lots of Christian folks that have grown up in a church. Some of them are having a transformative experience.
But lots are just going through the motions. A key indicator for me is when they are asked what they believe.
If they answer that their church believes such and so, I know it is probably not a personal belief.
In fact, they may be opposed to people having personal beliefs. Rather, the church makes these decisions for them.

What happens (IMHO) is that these folks place the church between themselves and God.
They trust the church to take responsibility for their spiritual well-being. Their part is to be a faithful attender.
Show up once every week or two (give or take a month) to polish the pew with their back side.

[
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
29,886
50,655
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What does "Spirituality" even mean? Serious question, what does it really mean?

I first heard the phrase "I'm not religious; I'm spiritual" from this ditzy girl whose apartment loft my college drinking buddy Mr. Bill sub-leased. She was into crystals and other New Age crap. I remember going out on a double-date, me and this girl I met studying the heavenly bodies in my astronomy class, her and this guy who saw auras. I think I still have Aura-reader's professional business card somewhere. He said my aura was a warm red, but my girlfriend's was a cold blue, so we weren't compatible. The auras were right; we soon split up.

I'm hearing the mantra, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" again these days. It's usually just a reaction (though probably a quite reasonable one) to the state of organized religion in the U.S. these days. What is it they're really looking for?
The same thing i was looking for when long ago i dabbled briefly with stuff like that .
Power , the desire to obtain a form of power
by which one can perform things . Its about spiritual darkness but they see it as light .
Its true center is the god of self . Many like things like that . How it makes them feel
important as some big thing .
They are naught but seducing spirits is what all this stuff is . Its allure to the flesh and heart of man
to decieve man into only greater darkness which they believe is of GOD or of this god of forces .
Its thrilling to them to be able to experience such things and to be able to seem wise inthe eyes of men .
Men who do that which is contrary to GOD , who do you think they serve and love , GOD or their own selves .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

Marvelloustime

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2020
6,549
11,598
113
Heaven bound
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
The same thing i was looking for when long ago i dabbled briefly with stuff like that .
Power , the desire to obtain a form of power
by which one can perform things . Its about spiritual darkness but they see it as light .
Its true center is the god of self . Many like things like that . How it makes them feel
important as some big thing .
They are naught but seducing spirits is what all this stuff is . Its allure to the flesh and heart of man
to decieve man into only greater darkness which they believe is of GOD or of this god of forces .
Its thrilling to them to be able to experience such things and to be able to seem wise inthe eyes of men .
Men who do that which is contrary to GOD , who do you think they serve and love , GOD or their own selves .
@amigo de christo
save-image.png
 
  • Love
Reactions: amigo de christo

Bruce-Leiter

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2024
451
276
63
82
West Michigan
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What does "Spirituality" even mean? Serious question, what does it really mean?

I first heard the phrase "I'm not religious; I'm spiritual" from this ditzy girl whose apartment loft my college drinking buddy Mr. Bill sub-leased. She was into crystals and other New Age crap. I remember going out on a double-date, me and this girl I met studying the heavenly bodies in my astronomy class, her and this guy who saw auras. I think I still have Aura-reader's professional business card somewhere. He said my aura was a warm red, but my girlfriend's was a cold blue, so we weren't compatible. The auras were right; we soon split up.

I'm hearing the mantra, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" again these days. It's usually just a reaction (though probably a quite reasonable one) to the state of organized religion in the U.S. these days. What is it they're really looking for?
The people who say that sentence could find a church that is loving and accepting of them and a small group to care for them somewhere near them, I think. Often, it's just an excuse for not attending church or a cry for help because they've been hurt by religious people. Getting them to talk about their church and Christian experiences will sometimes help them see that not all churches are like the ones they experienced.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy and Lambano