The Crippling Effects of Christian Dogma - Mindless Parroting of Apologetics

[St. SteVen]

Christ rejectors are not "incinerated",........ as Hell, then the Lake of fire do not incinerate.

See, "damnation" is not temporary, as its actually the eternal life of the Christ Rejector.. so, it'll last for as long as the CHRIST whom they rejected.
He'll be around for quite sometimes, as will their "2nd Death".

Another victim of evangelicalism? I can empathize. Should I pray for you?

Two questions:
1) Are the countless billions that have never even so much as heard the name of Jesus
considered by you to be rejecting Christ and deserving of eternal hell?
2) Who created hell? And for what purpose? (chapter and verse)

Did you not know that Annihilationism is a common biblical Christian doctrine of the final judgment? (incineration)
As is Christian Universalism. Annihilationism is actually the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

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[Behold]

Should I pray for you?

Sure.
I could use the prayer, and you could use the practice. @St. SteVen .

Two questions:
1) Are the countless billions that have never even so much as heard the name of Jesus

If you had any actual or literal faith in God, you would realize that what is impossible for man, is "with God all things are possible".

See, when God wants to get the message to you, He'll send the message using a big fish., or a talking donkey.

The fact is, God will find the perfect way to reach the Lost.

If the person is living in a cave, on top of a mountain, and they have no internet, cell phone, or connection to the outside world, God Almighty will find a way to reach them.
He doesn't need technology to do it.

Did you not know that Annihilationism is a common biblical Christian doctrine of the final judgment? (incineration)

Im not into the latest "this man came up with this stuff". So, i pass on Calvin, and the rest of them.....

So, for me, i read the NT scriptures, and i study Paul., because Jesus gave to Paul, what the real Christian, is to learn.

I'll leave you to the man made stuff,.,. the books and the commentaries, and the online websites, and the scholarship and Church fathers, nonsense.

 

[Spyder]

God prophesied it would be this way at the end, that there would be a famine, not for bread or water, but for hearing The Word of God; looking everywhere for it and not finding it...

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
KJV

Yep, that began at the end of the first century. Followers of Christ have had to delve into scripture themselves and pray to Yahweh for truth. Sadly, "the church" has become the sole source of truth for most.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yep, that began at the end of the first century. Followers of Christ have had to delve into scripture themselves and pray to Yahweh for truth. Sadly, "the church" has become the sole source of truth for most.

Many Christians have delegated their beliefs to the institutional church. Which is obvious when discussing their beliefs.

They will say, "We believe ___________" or, "Our church believes ___________", rather than, "I believe __________".

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[Jude Thaddeus]

Yep, that began at the end of the first century.

The Book of Amos was written in 8 B.C., not the end of the 1st century.

The Book of Amos is a prophetic book of the Hebrew Bible largely dating to the 8th century BCE and considered to be scripture by modern-day Jews and Christians. The work chronicles the visions that the ancient author of this book believed he received from God in order to warn Israel of its impending doom and destruction unless it restores its religious duties to God instead of engaging in the evil and sin that Amos believes has been pervading throughout his country, both in the kingdoms of Israel and in Judah. Naturally, the book also takes place in Israel, as Amos prophesies and preaches to the inhabitants of this land of the judgement of God.​

Book of Amos

The Book of Amos is a prophetic book of the Hebrew Bible largely dating to the 8th century BCE and considered to be scripture by modern-day Jews and Christians. The work chronicles the visions that...

www.worldhistory.org

Davy misapplies a verse from Amos, and uses it as a weapon.​

Followers of Christ have had to delve into scripture themselves and pray to Yahweh for truth. Sadly, "the church" has become the sole source of truth for most.​

Followers of Christ in the 1st, 2nd centuries didn't have a Bible as we know it, so how could they "delve into scripture themselves" when the full Bible didn't yet exist???

Sadly, "the church" has become the sole source of truth for most.

That would be "sola ecclesia", a concept not accepted by Catholics.

1 Timothy 3:15 “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”​

"But if I tarry long" means "until I get there...you ought to already know how to behave..."

"the pillar and ground of the truth.” is not the same as sole source of truth, so I agree with you..​

 

[St. SteVen]

The Book of Amos was written in 8 B.C., not the end of the 1st century.

Wouldn't that be 800 BC ? (8th century BC)

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[St. SteVen]

Followers of Christ in the 1st, 2nd centuries didn't have a Bible as we know it, so how could they "delve into scripture themselves" when the full Bible didn't yet exist???

Agree. They would only have had the OT scriptures. They could delve into those. Which is probably what @Spyder meant.

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[St. SteVen]

Sadly, "the church" has become the sole source of truth for most.

Agree.

That would be "sola ecclesia", a concept not accepted by Catholics.

Seriously? The Catholic Church doesn't consider itself to be the sole source of truth?
They believe that Protestants left the Church. (the one-and-only Church)

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[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Doctrinolatry - tribalism and division in the Body of Christ

A follow-up to my Bibliolatry topic. Doctrine becomes an idol when it is used to support tribalism and cause division in the Body of Christ. Since doctrinal unity is impossible, allowing others to hold their own doctrinal opinions may be the only way to prevent division. ]

www.christianityboard.com

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[Jude Thaddeus]

Agree.

Seriously? The Catholic Church doesn't consider itself to be the sole source of truth?

The CC does not claim to be the only church with truths.

They believe that Protestants left the Church. (the one-and-only Church)

<sigh>
see CCC817-820

Protestants believe the CC left them; the CC didn't separate from anybody.

 

[Davy]

The Book of Amos was written in 8 B.C., not the end of the 1st century.

The Book of Amos is a prophetic book of the Hebrew Bible largely dating to the 8th century BCE and considered to be scripture by modern-day Jews and Christians. The work chronicles the visions that the ancient author of this book believed he received from God in order to warn Israel of its impending doom and destruction unless it restores its religious duties to God instead of engaging in the evil and sin that Amos believes has been pervading throughout his country, both in the kingdoms of Israel and in Judah. Naturally, the book also takes place in Israel, as Amos prophesies and preaches to the inhabitants of this land of the judgement of God.​

Book of Amos

The Book of Amos is a prophetic book of the Hebrew Bible largely dating to the 8th century BCE and considered to be scripture by modern-day Jews and Christians. The work chronicles the visions that...

www.worldhistory.org

Davy misapplies a verse from Amos, and uses it as a weapon.​

Followers of Christ in the 1st, 2nd centuries didn't have a Bible as we know it, so how could they "delve into scripture themselves" when the full Bible didn't yet exist???
....

What an idiotic rebuttal by one who isn't given to understand God's Word.

Only someone God has not given eyes to see and ears to hear would say such things as the above.

Even the Book of Genesis contains prophecy meant only for the end of this world, so it is idiotic to attempt to date God's prophecies in His Word simply by some publish date of the Book.

And who does one think Apostle Paul wrote his Epistles to, which had possession of them in the 1st century?

 

[Davy]

Another victim of evangelicalism? I can empathize. Should I pray for you?

Two questions:
1) Are the countless billions that have never even so much as heard the name of Jesus
considered by you to be rejecting Christ and deserving of eternal hell?
2) Who created hell? And for what purpose? (chapter and verse)

Did you not know that Annihilationism is a common biblical Christian doctrine of the final judgment? (incineration)
As is Christian Universalism. Annihilationism is actually the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

Annihilationism stands in opposition to Universalism. You got it backwards.

And you'd have realized that if you knew what you were talking about.

 

[Davy]

Yep, that began at the end of the first century. Followers of Christ have had to delve into scripture themselves and pray to Yahweh for truth. Sadly, "the church" has become the sole source of truth for most.

Here is when I believe it began...

Gen 3:14-15
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KJV

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

What an idiotic rebuttal by one who isn't given to understand God's Word.

Only someone God has not given eyes to see and ears to hear would say such things as the above.

Take it up with World History Encyclopedia, not me.

Even the Book of Genesis contains prophecy meant only for the end of this world, so it is idiotic to attempt to date God's prophecies in His Word simply by some publish date of the Book.

No, the Book of Amos deals with the errant Israelites, not the end of the world.

And who does one think Apostle Paul wrote his Epistles to, which had possession of them in the 1st century?

We are not talking about Paul's Epistles, I am simply pointing your abuse of Amos, using a non-Catholic source.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yep, that began at the end of the first century. Followers of Christ have had to delve into scripture themselves and pray to Yahweh for truth. Sadly, "the church" has become the sole source of truth for most.

AS a Catholic, I believe what Scripture says about Christ's Church - that it is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15). It is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

I don't think anybody claims that it is the "SOLE" source of truth.

 

[Spyder]

AS a Catholic, I believe what Scripture says about Christ's Church - that it is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15). It is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

I don't think anybody claims that it is the "SOLE" source of truth.

Oh, then you are blessed to be amidst a group of Christians who actually study the scriptures and gather together to discuss how the passages fit each other or go against each other then pray to God for truth! That is great. I, however, see only those who read commentaries and learn what the preacher says.

 

[St. SteVen]

That's been my issue with churches lately. They never seem to advance out of biblical kindergarden. Apparently, the church-going masses don't mind. Every time I try a new church, the preacher's talk as though we all just found out about Jesus. My perceptions may be symptomatic of my sinful charactor. I just don't know.

It's not about you. The accuser cares more about your shortcomings than God. Useful to bludgeon you.

They gear the message to the lowest common denominator, as you noted.
Those who are mature are expected to serve the fledglings and scavenge for their own spiritual sustenance.

Which might be why these forums are full of predatory beasts.

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[Spyder]

Followers of Christ in the 1st, 2nd centuries didn't have a Bible as we know it, so how could they "delve into scripture themselves" when the full Bible didn't yet exist???

That is exactly how the church that Jesus started got corrupted. The letters written by the Apostles did exist even though they had not been compiled into a book. It was those letters that were read and interpreted by the theologians that arose in the first few centuries. It was also those theologians that created sects based on their own philosophies regarding what they read.

The ancient "blue collar worker" could not read and did not have those letters. They had only their churches. They had their teachers, but they didn't have the apostles.

However, they DID have Yahweh and His Son - if they knew to ask them for truth.

Today, we have Yahweh and His Son, but what do we do? We take our favorite translations and beat people over the head with them. We certainly don't delve into all that is written. We listen to our preachers and teachers and act like we know the truth while repeating what we have been told.

I am flabbergasted by those who read scripture but don't like what it says, so people start using their own brand of logic to argue against what is written and their logic is what determines truth. Personally, if we are confused by what is written, then our study is not complete and we should not claim that we "know" the truth. I know for sure that if we claim to know the truth and not allow ourselves to examine anything contrary, we are no performing a "study." We are avoiding one.

 

[St. SteVen]

The ancient "blue collar worker" could not read and did not have those letters. They had only their churches. They had their teachers, but they didn't have the apostles.

However, they DID have Yahweh and His Son - if they knew to ask them for truth.

This is a very salient point, especially by extension.
It seems that the direct relationship the early church had with Christ was supplanted when literacy advanced to the common man.
The KJV Bible of 1611 AD was becoming available to the public. Prior to that, biblical stories were seen in stained glass windows.

They may have asked: "Who needs to have a relationship with the author when you have your own copy of his book?"

It says Holy Bible right on the cover. Your very own relic to worship.



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[Jude Thaddeus]

That is exactly how the church that Jesus started got corrupted.

WHEN did this monumental event take place that no one noticed until the middle of a revolt?

The letters written by the Apostles did exist even though they had not been compiled into a book. It was those letters that were read and interpreted by the theologians that arose in the first few centuries. It was also those theologians that created sects based on their own philosophies regarding what they read.

I don't what "sects" you are talking about. Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries), Montanism (Late 2nd Century), Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century), Arianism (4th Century) were not sects, they were dangerous heresies.

The ancient "blue collar worker" could not read and did not have those letters. They had only their churches. They had their teachers, but they didn't have the apostles.

They had bishops with a pedigree going back to the Apostles. You are trying to Protestantize the first few centuries with this nonsense of immediate corruption. They only way you can do that is to re-write early church history so it fits 21st century paradigms. This leads into a denial of the "corrupt" councils that ratified the canon of the New Testament in the late 3rd century, cutting off the very limb you are sitting on.

However, they DID have Yahweh and His Son - if they knew to ask them for truth.

Yes, when Jesus walked the earth. And the authority Jesus gave to His Church corrupted after the Ascension??? That makes no sense.

Today, we have Yahweh and His Son, but what do we do? We take our favorite translations and beat people over the head with them. We certainly don't delve into all that is written. We listen to our preachers and teachers and act like we know the truth while repeating what we have been told.

I am flabbergasted by those who read scripture but don't like what it says, so people start using their own brand of logic to argue against what is written and their logic is what determines truth. Personally, if we are confused by what is written, then our study is not complete and we should not claim that we "know" the truth. I know for sure that if we claim to know the truth and not allow ourselves to examine anything contrary, we are no performing a "study." We are avoiding one.

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).
ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON