Of course, we know from Revelation 20:13,14, that hell isn’t eternal… only the Lake of Fire is.
“Hell gave up those dead in [it]…. and… hell was thrown into the Lake of Fire”.
Who or What is Babylon the Great? How do God’s people come to be in her?
- Thread starter Aunty Jane
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“Hell gave up those dead in [it]…. and… hell was thrown into the Lake of Fire”.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Well, if you want to transgress the Law, where do you start? You see the issue with the migrants at the border, they have no issue with the law till they do what, cross the border of course. Then they break a multitude of laws hiding and evading in the grip of lawlessness unless they get a full pardon. Those who break the fourth Commandment will need a full pardon and tremendous grace, but God is merciful, so we shall see how it plays out. But Aunty, I hope to see you in the heavenly kingdom so we can continue our talks...
Ritajanice
Born-Again
How do God’s people come to be in Babylon, I have no idea, as I have been grafted into spiritual Israel...
After extensive persecution of the Christians, Saul got a very big tap on the shoulder from the resurrected Jesus, saying that this man was a “chosen vessel” to him, and given an assignment as “an apostle to the nations”….and so Saul humbly accepted the correction and became the apostle Paul, who wrote a good deal of Christian Scripture….are you denying him?
What was the only form of “Christianity” for basically 1500 years?
The Roman Catholic church formulated all the doctrines that Christendom is founded on….the trinity…immortality of the soul…and hellfire….all these came from original Babylon (including mother goddess worship which is where the adoration of Mary came from)…..the three main Catholic doctrines are believed by almost all churches.
The Reformation took place because a Catholic priest named Martin Luther felt that the church had fallen short in obeying the Christ on many levels. He wanted reform so that the church would accept its part in promoting false teachings and repent, but that never happened….instead, they punished Luther and excommunicated him.
The Reformation that followed, called Protestantism, carried many of the Catholic Church doctrines over to their own churches, making the whole of Christendom part of “Babylon the great”….this is why God commanded his people to “get out of her” because God will punish her and all those found supporting her Babylonish doctrines will go down with her. (Rev 18:4-5)
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What a load of nonsense, let's checks Scripture in context, Rev 18 indeed.
Rev 18:1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;
Rev 18:5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
How does this stand model for Protestantism ?
Not.
The harlot has many daughters who all teach the same doctrines as their ‘mother’, which are not scriptural, but are straight out of original Babylon. Any who accept her lies as truth, have been deceived by the same personage who is responsible for the fall of mankind in the first place.
Jesus warned us about the sower of the “weeds”….“the devil”…..is the founder of a counterfeit form of Christianity, with as many varieties as the weeds in the garden. This is Christendom, which fits the description perfectly…..a pretend “Christianity” that they can’t even see, is so fractured that it cannot be teaching the one truth that Jesus and his apostles promoted. The Christ cannot exist divided.
In Babylon the great”, how have “all the nations become drunk with the wine of her passion”, and why call it “sexual immorality”?
What did God accuse Israel of being when she engaged in false worship? Israel too tried to blend true worship with false worship, with God accusing her of being like an unfaithful wife, the “sexual immorality” was spiritual….causing God to want a divorce!
False worship often led to physical sexual immorality as well.
When Jesus comes as judge, he will not see denominations as the way to discern who is a “sheep” and who is a “goat”….he discerns what the heart motivation is and whether people have sought to know “the only true God AND the one he sent” (John 17:3)…but how can they get to know the truth in amongst Christendom’s many versions of him.….the true God doesn’t have three heads or multiple personalities.
If Jesus did not ever mention a trinity or even a godhead, then why is this one doctrine central to all the denominations who claim him as their Lord? (Matt 7:21-23) So many people tell me that you can’t call yourself a Christian if you deny that Jesus is God……yet, he never once said he was.
Were the apostles in any doubt as to who was their “one God”? (Jehovah was always “one God” to his people in contrast to the nations who worshipped multiple deities. Deut 6:4) So, speaking collectively for all the apostles Paul said….
1 Cor 8:5-6…
”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”
Their “one God” was “the Father” (Yahweh) and their “one Lord” was Jesus Christ. Calling Jesus “Lord” has somehow become synonymous with calling him “God” when this title, (shared by both) is simply an address of respect for their authority. Slaves called their masters “lord”….Sarah called Abraham “lord”…..it is simply a title demonstrating respect for someone who exercises authority over another.
You will notice that the angel in Rev 18 has authority…..from whom?
”Babylon the great” captured God’s people many centuries ago, just the same as original Babylon captured God’s people in Bible history…..with a promise of returning after their 70 year sentence. Catholicism was the only “church” with authority over people, kept in ignorance by not allowing them access to the scriptures and feeding them false doctrines.
God’s people were to be released from “Babylon the great” prior to the judgment when Christ was to return.
It was a mandate from God himself…..in order to be saved, we must not be found in any false form of worship.…Christian or non Christian…..and there are literally thousands of religions today.
True Christianity will not have any similarity to the beliefs found in “Babylon the great”….the “wheat and weeds” will already be separate when Christ makes his judgment.
@Aunty Jane, this what you said - The Reformation that followed, called Protestantism, carried many of the Catholic Church doctrines over to their own churches, making the whole of Christendom part of “Babylon the great”….this is why God commanded his people to “get out of her” because God will punishe her and all those found supporting her Babylonish doctrines will go down with her. (Rev 18:4-5)
The story of Babylon the great starts in in Rev chapter 17, we should include that too before making the judgement -- the whole of Christendom --- and nothing points to the whole of Christendom as Babylon the great in chapter 17.
Instead we read, some key verses, but please read the whole chapter -
Rev 17:5 - And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.”
Rev 17:6 - And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
Rev 17:9 - This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;
Rev 17:18 - And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
. Who has murdering Christians? -> Nero
. Which city was founded on 7 mountains? -> Rome, where Nero ruled over his empire.
. Which is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth -> Rome
And so as it is [ IMO ] with Revelation, you always have to wonder, what is history and already happened and what is future, not so simple. But in the case of Babylon the great my vote (based on the above) it's about the situation of that time and not a future event in our time.
Now it happens to be the case that in our time, Rome is still on the map, not longer is in power, but has a Pope calling himself infallible and in the meantime is looking for common ground with other world religions. More on the RCC in a separate post, this one is already quite long.
Blessings Aunty.
The story of Babylon the great starts in in Rev chapter 17, we should include that too before making the judgement -- the whole of Christendom --- and nothing points to the whole of Christendom as Babylon the great in chapter 17.
Instead we read, some key verses, but please read the whole chapter -
Rev 17:5 - And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.”
Rev 17:6 - And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
Rev 17:9 - This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;
Rev 17:18 - And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
. Who has murdering Christians? -> Nero
. Which city was founded on 7 mountains? -> Rome, where Nero ruled over his empire.
. Which is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth -> Rome
And so as it is [ IMO ] with Revelation, you always have to wonder, what is history and already happened and what is future, not so simple. But in the case of Babylon the great my vote (based on the above) it's about the situation of that time and not a future event in our time.
Now it happens to be the case that in our time, Rome is still on the map, not longer is in power, but has a Pope calling himself infallible and in the meantime is looking for common ground with other world religions. More on the RCC in a separate post, this one is already quite long.
Blessings Aunty.
@Aunty Jane, this what you said - The Reformation that followed, called Protestantism, carried many of the Catholic Church doctrines over to their own churches, making the whole of Christendom part of “Babylon the great”….this is why God commanded his people to “get out of her” because God will punishe her and all those found supporting her Babylonish doctrines will go down with her. (Rev 18:4-5)
Alright, about the RCC, which is not Protestantism.
en.wikipedia.org
The early church fathers were NOT into the RCC, just devout Christians with the immense task to produce the canon of the NT and fight against all sorts false teachings such as Gnosticism.
Things went wrong when Christianity became a state religion, the RCC, when popes became world leaders, went to wars, politics and church don't go together, the task of the church is to preach and teach, take care of the poor etc. like Christ said to Peter - Feed my lambs.
And things went from worse to worse -
. The Mary cult.
. Declaring people holy adding the word Saint, there is only One who can do that and it isn't the pope.
. The statues in RCC churches with these self declared saints.
. Popes being infallible.
. Popes as spokesman of Christ.
. Hiding the Scriptures from the common people.
. Indulgence, making money.
. And now the current pope is looking for common ground with other world religions.
. The inquisition.
Did I miss anything?, probably so.
Does the RCC qualify for Babylon the great if Rev 17&18 if it were a future event, certainly so, but even so Babylon the great isn't only about religion, but on all evil under heaven.
And to compare the RCC with Protestantism (with all its own faults) is no comparison at all.
Alright, about the RCC, which is not Protestantism.
Church Fathers - Wikipedia
The early church fathers were NOT into the RCC, just devout Christians with the immense task to produce the canon of the NT and fight against all sorts false teachings such as Gnosticism.
Things went wrong when Christianity became a state religion, the RCC, when popes became world leaders, went to wars, politics and church don't go together, the task of the church is to preach and teach, take care of the poor etc. like Christ said to Peter - Feed my lambs.
And things went from worse to worse -
. The Mary cult.
. Declaring people holy adding the word Saint, there is only One who can do that and it isn't the pope.
. The statues in RCC churches with these self declared saints.
. Popes being infallible.
. Popes as spokesman of Christ.
. Hiding the Scriptures from the common people.
. Indulgence, making money.
. And now the current pope is looking for common ground with other world religions.
. The inquisition.
Did I miss anything?, probably so.
Does the RCC qualify for Babylon the great if Rev 17&18 if it were a future event, certainly so, but even so Babylon the great isn't only about religion, but on all evil under heaven.
And to compare the RCC with Protestantism (with all its own faults) is no comparison at all.
You misread what I said…I did not say that ”the whole of Christendom is Babylon the great”……I said that the whole of Christendom is “PART of Babylon the great”….Original Babylon was the city from which Nimrod spread his false religious ideas.…carried all over the world when God confused their language.
Vestiges of his false religious ideas found a home in all cultures, manifesting his ideas in some form in all false religion. Also carried over into those cultures was the flood story in various forms.
Is it a coincidence that all false religion teaches a multiplicity of gods, when Yahweh was only “ONE” (Deut 6:4)….or a coincidence that immortality of the soul in some form, is also taught in false worship. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
What about the destinations of the good and evil humans? All false religion teaches that a heaven of bliss awaits the good, but a hell of eternal fiery torment awaits the wicked. Is that what God’s word teaches?
None of those concepts are biblical.
“Babylon the great” is the devil’s world empire of false worship…..it isn’t confined to just Christendom, which is the most reprehensible because she alone claims to be the true Bible based religious system….but it is broken up into so many sects because of the Reformation, that people are totally confused as to which “branch” they should sit on.
The Revelation was written towards the end of the first century, long after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. And John was transported in vision to “the Lord’s day”, which at that time was yet future.
The greatest tribulation in man’s history is yet to be experienced…..and results in a complete change in world rulership. God’s Kingdom will take over control of the whole world and eliminate evil from our lives forever. (Daniel 2:44) A thousand years of Christ’s rulership will take sin away for good, and reestablish God’s first purpose for the human race.
Why are we here on this planet, ProDeo? What was our purpose here In the beginning…before the fall?
Tell me please what evil was not perpetrated by the RC church in its inquisitions. History tells us. Yet all religions have been involved in the wars of history and every evil perpetrated in war was sanctioned by the churches of Christendom as well as the false religions of the world. True Christians were absent from those wars because they refused to “return evil for evil”. (Rom 12:17-21)
The apple does not fall far from the tree….Protestantism is built on the same faulty foundation as the mother church....her primary doctrines are the same.
The Reformation did one good thing….it gave the Bible back to the people….but it also broke Christianity up into bickering fragments, following men instead of the Bible….the “church” systems today are far from what the apostle Paul said identified true Christians….(1 Cor 1:10) God’s spirit unifies his people…it does not divide them.
Let's check, is the JW movement excluded being part of Babylon the great?
I don't want to redo the whole "Deity of Christ" debate with more than 4000 posts. The point I was making that the ones responsible for producing the canon were NOT RCC, the RCC with popes in power (and how that went wrong) did not exist at that time. These were devout Christians and many of the ECF (first and second century) already believed in the "Deity of Christ" and AD 325 was spot on.
“Babylon the great” is about all evil under heaven, not exclusive for religions.
There is a shift in thinking among Biblical scholars, those who reason from science, that Revelation might as well be written before 70 AD. One of the arguments is chapter 11, The story of the Two Witnesses. It describes a scenario before AD 70 with the temple still in place.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
A prophecy that predicts the past is no prophecy and since chapter 11 is about what happened before AD 70 with the temple still in place is evidence (and maybe even proof) that John wrote Revelation before AD 70.
Another hint -
Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
And apparently chapter 11 still needs to happen, more evidence that John wrote Revelation before AD 70.
Ha! I like such questions, I have thought about it thoroughly, you too?
Short version, I am here because two people had sex.
Of course there is a longer version, but I found my above realization quite shocking at the time because of all the implications.
Your turn.
No disagreement here, as said before Church in power is wrong, Jesus said - My kingdom is not of this world.
You are using the word primary, then what are the primary doctrines of the church?
Matt 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.
Matt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Matt 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
I am pretty sure it is the same in your church, I hope.
Within a church there should be no division indeed, for the record, Paul was speaking about the church of Corinth.
On a global scale the short list of passages I quoted above as primary would be hard enough but not impossible.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Look and see if the wine of Babylon has come into your church. The day of the sun is of pagan origin to say nothing of "easter", ect.
If that means excluding all doctrines that find their origins in original Babylon, then yes, we have carefully examined every one of Christendom’s doctrines and traditions and thrown out the ones that are clearly not part of Christ’s teachings…….and as Jesus said, ‘the wheat would be separated from the weeds’ by the “reapers” at his return, and the weeds would be collected first and disposed of before the wheat is gathered into the master’s storehouse. (Matt 13:24-30) His disciples asked for an explantation of this parable and he gave them a clear identification of the players in his illustration….
”Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.” (Matt 13:36-43)
The ones who produced the canon were used by God to include what HE required as part of the Scriptures, preserved for us down to this day. (2 Tim 3:16-17) It did not involve man’s choices at all, since God can use even his enemies to do his bidding. Even the writings of the ECF’s cannot be relied upon to be God’s truth because none of their writings made it into the inspired Scriptures.
The reason why no writings after John’s were included in the Christian Scriptures is because the apostasy that Jesus and the apostles foretold was “already at work” towards the end of the first century, so nothing written by those who lived after the last apostle died, can be relied upon to be free of the devil’s influence as he was planting his weeds already.
No sorry, the devil’s ancient global religious systems cater to every taste and were supported almost universally by the governments of the nations they operated in. In man’s history, religion has too often been the power behind the throne of those in rulership……but in our day, when “Babylon the great” goes down, she is mourned by the other two primary elements of Satan’s world…..the political and commercial elements. (Even though God uses the political elements to bring her to nothing.) With these three strong influences, satan has controlled the entire population of this earth in one way or another. They are designed to lead humans to do his bidding. (Rev 18:8-14) In our day, religion takes aback seat to the religion of science, which has removed the need to worship any god because we are not the product of a Creator….apparently, we just evolved ourselves into existence……so in all cases satan is the winner, but only if we let him.
Differences over religion have introduced heinous wars all through man’s history. The god of these religions is one, and he loves violence and bloodshed and immorality…all are the hallmark of his evil disposition.
When Israel defended their God-given land, it was in the name of their God, Yahweh, against the useless gods of the nations, but in the Christian era, in “the final part of the days”, it was prophesied that our weapons would be turned into implements of agriculture. We would “not learn war anymore”. (Isa 2:2-4)
Very few churches teach that war is against Christian principles….most justify the bloodshed out of some misguided patriotic sentiment….and use OT Scripture to do so. We are living in very different times.
When Jesus walked the earth, God’s nation were subjugated to pagan Rome, and did not even have a military force.
Christians did not therefore participate in wars because they would be fighting on the side of God’s enemies.…that has never changed.
Scholars can shift whatever they like…..it won’t change a thing regarding God’s purpose and the timing of events.
When the Christian Scriptures were written, the “coming” of God’s Kingdom was always spoken of as something imminent….but here we are almost 2000 years from when Christ walked the earth and we are still waiting for the fulfillment of Rev 21:2-4…….
”I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Do you know why we are still waiting? This has not happened yet as it pertains to things on the earth, involving humankind, not just events in heaven. With the coming of God’s Kingdom, what can we expect?
Daniel tells us what happens in the days of the last kings or ruling powers in our day….
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever”. (Daniel 2:44)
God’s Kingdom will crush all failed, corrupt human rulership (under the devil’s influence) out of existence, taking down all who support them because he has told us to be ”NO part of the world” (John 18:36) and to remove ourselves from all false worship. (Babylon the great)
This is “soon” in God’s counting of time, not ours. Remember that ‘a thousand years is just like one day’ to him. (2 Pet :3:8) He and his spirit sons exist in a timeless realm…..we on earth are restricted by the rotation of our planet.
Absolutely!
Short version? I am not good at short versions (as readers well know) because it’s the detail that confirms whether something is true.
Yes, you are correct…..we only exist because two people combined their DNA to produce us, and before that conception, we did not exist, making our life a one in a trillion chance of us (as individuals) ever having existed….what a revelation that is! Life is truly a gift…but how were we meant to live it?
But I was speaking about the human race generally, not just us as singular people. What was the point of God putting mortal humans on a carefully and lovingly prepared planet in the first place?
Why are we here? Can you tell me what you think the Bible says about that question, as it is one that seems to be largely ignored, yet it is a vital part of the big picture. What God planned for the human race at the beginning, is returned to us at the end (Isa 55:11)….thanks to Jesus willing sacrifice.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
That's the issue, you do away with God's truth and replace it with a lie, and when shown it, then any day is acceptable except the Sabbath. Satan is masterful in his deception, and wipes out what is of God, from all angles...
Yep, we are all lucky, out of the typical 80 to 300 million sperm cells we as first one reached the womb, the others died, we are winners, all of us.
And indeed, why? and why me? Who am I? Pure randomness as science wants us to believe, or predestination?
And about the blue, how can you be sure? I am referring to John the Baptist who did not even know he was Elijah when he descended from heaven back in the womb again. And like everybody else he had to face death death after all. Note, I am not saying the Bible teaches reincarnation, this was an unique case for a very special occasion. Like it was with Mary, to reassure her (and us) the angel said - With God everything is possible.
As I said before during one of our previous talks I do see the Garden as a supernatural place where the physical laws did not count. No death, no knowledge of good and evil, no sin, A&E naked as a sign of innocence and unlike us (banned) they were living in the presence of the Lord. Then the evil one came and everything changed, death made its entry in God's creation and they we banned out of Paradise, away from the presence of the Lord. But why am I banned on beforehand, why did I not get the same chance as A&E? Or did I ?
Exactly, why are we here?
Speaking for myself, adding another question, at some age I was told there was a God and you better listen else you would end up in outer darkness, hell, lake of fire. And so I realized I am already judged guilty and if I don't do anything I am on my way to outer darkness, hell, lake of fire, whatever second death means, there are different opinions and none are fun.
Exactly, what is the big picture, that's the question that has kept me bothering for years. I have a theory that answers all my questions, but I keep it to myself, as I can't proof it from Scripture but on the other hand would not surprise me in the case it is true.
Yes, the restoration how it was before the fall, only difference we will know about good and evil in the hope we learned the lesson on earth well and be obedient in the hypothetical case God says : DONT.
YES !
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