Who or What is Babylon the Great? How do God’s people come to be in her?

[Ritajanice]

Hi @Aunty Jane ...always a pleasure discussing with you...what do you make of what God is speaking to Adam here?

2:17] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."​

Did Adam/ Eve have an understanding of what die meant back then?

As you know, I respect your beliefs,..plus I love reading your understanding of the Bible...look forward to your reply....

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think you missing the point of the Abraham | Isaac story, note the similarities with the Father who sacrifices His Son on Golgotha and NOT withholding the knife, allowing it to happen.

1. Abraham (father) - God the Father
2. Isaac (son) - Jesus (Son)
3. Isaac (the long promised son) - Jesus, the long promised Messiah
4. Isaac born in a miraculous way - Jesus born by the Holy Spirit
5. Abraham is told to travel 3 days to Mount Moria, that's Jerusalem [!!]
6. Isaac (the son) had to carry the wood that would kill him all the way up to the mountain - Jesus carrying the cross that would kill Him.

A prophetic story that happened 2000 years before Christ.

Yes, we know that it was, but at the time, did Abraham know that this test was to come upon him?

Who wrote Genesis? Not Abraham, but Moses who lived at the time of Israel’s deliverance…Abraham was 100 years old and Sarah about 90 when Isaac was born. Isaac was about 25 when his father was asked to offer him up as a sacrifice to God. It was of course a way to test Abraham’s faith, but also to pictorially to convey the difficulty of sacrificing an only son…..something any loving parent would find extremely difficult.

But Abraham had faith in the resurrection, as Paul confirmed….

Heb 11: 8-10…17-19….
”By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9  By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10  For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God.. . . .

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18  although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 19  But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way“.

There it is…..Abraham knew that all of God’s promises would be fulfilled in Isaac, so asking Abraham to sacrifice him, tested Abraham’s faith in that resurrection.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi @Aunty Jane ...always a pleasure discussing with you...what do you make of what God is speaking to Adam here?

2:17] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."​

Did Adam/ Eve have an understanding of what die meant back then?

Since Adam was created first and God gave him an education before he created a mate for him, he was given the privilege of naming all the animals....he needed to take time to observe these creatures in order to give them an appropriate name.....in observing these creatures, Adam was made aware that he alone did not have a mate......so God decided it was time to give Adam a mate......this to me means that the creative days were not mere 24 hour periods....but much longer periods in which God carried out his creation in carefully planned increments. At the end of each creative period, God expressed his satisfaction with each stage, thus far.

So before Adam had a mate, God had already told him about “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, and told him if he ate of the fruit of that tree, he would die. Eve confirmed this by repeating to the serpent what her husband had told her. Having seen death in the animal kingdom during the time he was naming all the animals.
I believe that Adam knew exactly what God meant when he told him that eating the fruit meant death.

The devil had to disarm the penalty so that the woman would succumb to his lies.....He told her that they would not die, but that they would become “like God”.....history tells us that humans have been dying ever since......yet that is not what God planned for his human children.....he gave them an opportunity to live forever here on earth in paradise conditions....how do we know this?

Genesis 3:22-24...after the fall....
“Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23  With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24  So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

As you know, I respect your beliefs,..plus I love reading your understanding of the Bible...look forward to your reply....

Thank you Ritajanice. God never intended that we should die....he wanted us to live forever in the most beautiful surroundings, in peace and security....but Adam misused his free will and joined his wife in disobedience, condemning all his children to sin and death. (Rom 5:12) Jesus came to “buy back” what Adam lost for us....that is called redemption.

 

[ProDeo]

So before Adam had a mate, God had already told him about “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, and told him if he ate of the fruit of that tree, he would die. Eve confirmed this by repeating to the serpent what her husband had told her. Having seen death in the animal kingdom during the time he was naming all the animals.
I believe that Adam knew exactly what God meant when he told him that eating the fruit meant death.

Interesting detail -

Gen 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden,
Gen 3:3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

God never said that, the red.

Adam did not correct Eve.

Adam did not communicate God's words to Eve well, that was his job, because Eve wasn't around at the time.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Aunty Jane ..I gave you a thumbs up ,to show that I read your post, which is always well explained, that doesn’t mean that I agree with it....will get back to you , as and when..thanks again for taking the time to post your commentary.

 

[TheHC]

I think you missing the point of the Abraham | Isaac story, note the similarities with the Father who sacrifices His Son on Golgotha and NOT withholding the knife, allowing it to happen.

1. Abraham (father) - God the Father
2. Isaac (son) - Jesus (Son)
3. Isaac (the long promised son) - Jesus, the long promised Messiah
4. Isaac born in a miraculous way - Jesus born by the Holy Spirit
5. Abraham is told to travel 3 days to Mount Moria, that's Jerusalem [!!]
6. Isaac (the son) had to carry the wood that would kill him all the way up to the mountain - Jesus carrying the cross that would kill Him.

A prophetic story that happened 2000 years before Christ.

Of course God knew that Abraham would be obedient, it's the same as with things like predestination, God wants that things are being played out, as a testimony for all, us, the heavenly creatures, God showing His love, His righteousness. He knows if your name and my name are written in the Book of Life, nevertheless He wants it to happen and that we live out lives.

No, Jehovah wasn’t lying.

He did not know absolutely whether Abraham would go through with that or not.

That’s why Jehovah said, “Now I do know….”

Same with Cain…. Why would Jehovah even try to get Cain to stop?

You’ve got to reason on the Scriptures, confidant there’s no contradiction within its pages.

The only contradiction, is on our end, when we misunderstand it.

 

[Ritajanice]

No, Jehovah wasn’t lying.

He did not know absolutely whether Abraham would go through with that or not.

I disagree, I believe he did.....God has a plan for this world.....a greater plan, that imo we could never comprehend...his thoughts and ways are from beyond our comprehension....

That’s why Jehovah said, “Now I do know….”

Same with Cain…. Why would Jehovah even try to get Cain to stop?

You’ve got to reason on the Scriptures, confidant there’s no contradiction within its pages.

The only contradiction, is on our end, when we misunderstand it.

That is your belief, some members beliefs differ to yours.

Below is the word of God.

Psalms 139:1-6New International Version (NIV) You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.

 

[TheHC]

I will once again read those scriptures regarding Abraham and Cain, then get back to you.


In the meantime.

1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Psalm 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

Psalm 139​

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King James Version​

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139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Hello.
I appreciate those Scriptures — God certainly is wonderful!

Just want to point out that none of those Scriptures highlights God’s ability to know future events carried out by particular individuals.

Jehovah certainly can maneuver events to fulfill a future purpose, and there have been a few exceptions (like with King Cyrus and the prophet Jeremiah), but for the most part Jehovah God respects the right to make choices that He has endowed each human with.

 

[Ritajanice]

Hello.
I appreciate those Scriptures — God certainly is wonderful!

Just want to point out that none of those Scriptures highlights God’s ability to know future events carried out by particular individuals.

Jehovah certainly can maneuver events to fulfill a future purpose, and there have been a few exceptions (like with King Cyrus and the prophet Jeremiah), but for the most part Jehovah God respects the right to make choices that He has endowed each human with.

According to you my friend, that doesn’t make it so.

Now, is there any point in discussing this any further?...you believe what you believe.i believe what I believe ,that is God knows everything...there is nothing he doesn’t know..he knows what I’m going to say, before I’ve even said it.

God searches the heart ...he knows the heart of every individual..his word says so.

 

[TheHC]

I disagree, I believe he did.....God has a plan for this world.....a greater plan, that imo we could never comprehend...his thoughts and ways are from beyond our comprehension....

That is your belief, some members beliefs differ to yours.

Below is the word of God.

Psalms 139:1-6New International Version (NIV) You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, LORD, know it completely.

Beliefs are a dime a dozen.

What the Bible says, is the important thing.

And it doesn’t contradict itself.
Only beliefs.

Where does it say omniscience has to include knowing what an individual will do in the future?

Going by that parameter, then ultimately God is to blame for setting everything up that has failed.

But Deuteronomy 32:5 says in part…. “….the defect is their own.”

In Genesis 18 (again), another incident was highlighted by God, the lawlessness of Sodom and Gomorrah.
In vss.20,21, Jehovah said.
“The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. 21 I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.”

Pretty plain language.

 

[Ritajanice]

Beliefs are a dime a dozen.

What the Bible says, is the important thing.

And it doesn’t contradict itself.
Only beliefs.

Where does it say omniscience has to include knowing what an individual will do in the future?

Going by that parameter, then ultimately God is to blame for setting everything up that has failed.

But Deuteronomy 32:5 says in part…. “….the defect is their own.”

In Genesis 18 (again), another incident was highlighted by God, the lawlessness of Sodom and Gomorrah.
In vss.20,21, Jehovah said.
“The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. 21 I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.”

Pretty plain language.

According to you my friend...I’ve already posted scripture that says God is all knowing, he searches the heart, he knows everyone’s heart, the word tells us so.

So...I agree to disagree...no point arguing it out, as that shows control and pride...that the other person must be right.

You/ me have voiced what we believe the word of God to be saying, we understand God’s word very differently.

Respect that other people disagree with what you believe...instead of telling them that they are wrong....been there done all that..

 

[TheHC]

According to you my friend, that doesn’t make it so.

Now, is there any point in discussing this any further?...you believe what you believe.i believe what I believe ,that is God knows everything...there is nothing he doesn’t know..he knows what I’m going to say, before I’ve even said it.

God searches the heart ...he knows the heart of every individual..his word says so.

Yes, He knows our inclinations. But our future actions? Our actions may be different from our inclinations.


Take care.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, He knows our inclinations. But our future actions?

Another different commentary to yours.

God is eternal in the sense of being above and beyond time. God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, the perfectly good agent, and the only creator and sustainer of the universe. God's omniscience entails that He has foreknowledge of all future events, including human free choices and actions.

Our actions may be different from our inclinations.


Take care.

Then I agree to disagree..

God has a plan for his Born Again children’s lives...he says, I know the plans that I have for you.

Jeremiah 29:11​

Jeremiah 29:11 knowing that it is not a promise to immediately rescue us from hardship or suffering, but rather a promise that God has a plan for our lives and regardless of our current situation, He can work through it to prosper us and give us a hope.




I will leave it there my friend, feel free to have the last word.

I learning to have my say..then move on...that’s been a hard lesson for me to learn..

God Bless .

 

[ProDeo]

No, Jehovah wasn’t lying.

What ?!

Where did I say God was lying?

Where................

 

[Aunty Jane]

Interesting detail -

Gen 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden,
Gen 3:3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

God never said that, the red.

Seriously....can you eat something without touching it? Did Adam lie to his wife? Or did he merely add the correct emphasis to what God had told him.....it amazes me how quickly people jump to ridiculous conclusions over minor things, whilst believing tall tales. As Jesus said of the Pharisees...they were ”straining out gnats whist gulping down camels”....

Adam did not correct Eve.

Adam did not communicate God's words to Eve well, that was his job, because Eve wasn't around at the time.

What was to correct? The fact is that Adam was not with his wife when satan targeted her...he knew that her inexperience and lack of a full education made her vulnerable to his lies and deceit. If Adam had been present, I am sure that he would have sent the serpent packing....only when his wife had disobeyed God’s command did he then have to make the most difficult decision of his life.....to obey his God and lose her when he had waited so long for a mate......or to join her in rebellion and to die with her? Did he know that his choice would affect all of his offspring? The Bible doesn’t say...only that death would be a consequence of disobedience. He was told nothing about any other punishment.....no “heaven or hell” scenario was ever put to him.

 

[TheHC]

What ?!

Where did I say God was lying?

Where................

I’m sorry for jumping to a wrong conclusion. It seemed that’s what you were implying.

At Genesis 22:1 (NIV), it says “Some time later God tested Abraham.” And then, after Abraham passed the test, God says, “Now I know….”, it indicates, that, prior to the incident, God did not know.

(Really, why would God even bother to test, if He absolutely knew the outcome?)

The logical conclusion is, God didn’t know absolutely.

Unless God was misleading him somehow. We know God doesn’t do that, right? Not His obedient worshippers.

When you combine this account with how Jehovah tried to dissuade Cain, it should be clear.

 

[Hobie]

I think you missing the point of the Abraham | Isaac story, note the similarities with the Father who sacrifices His Son on Golgotha and NOT withholding the knife, allowing it to happen.

1. Abraham (father) - God the Father
2. Isaac (son) - Jesus (Son)
3. Isaac (the long promised son) - Jesus, the long promised Messiah
4. Isaac born in a miraculous way - Jesus born by the Holy Spirit
5. Abraham is told to travel 3 days to Mount Moria, that's Jerusalem [!!]
6. Isaac (the son) had to carry the wood that would kill him all the way up to the mountain - Jesus carrying the cross that would kill Him.

A prophetic story that happened 2000 years before Christ.

Of course God knew that Abraham would be obedient, it's the same as with things like predestination, God wants that things are being played out, as a testimony for all, us, the heavenly creatures, God showing His love, His righteousness. He knows if your name and my name are written in the Book of Life, nevertheless He wants it to happen and that we live out lives.

Yes, just heard a sermon on that, very enlightening..