Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh you mean the ones in Abrahams Bosom, the pre Christ believers and unbelievers. They were waiting for the Lord in Abrahams bosom because Jesus had not paid the price yet! When Jesus died, He set those captives free and they are with Him now. And after that, since the price had then been paid, absent from the body present with the Lord.

No, he was asking about what about all the Jews from past generations before the future time when you think everyone in the nation of Israel will be saved. So, he was talking about the Jews from the past almost 2,000 years or so. What about them? God didn't care about doing anything to save them, but He will save all the Jews in the future? That's what it seems like you believe.

 

[Scott Downey]

The return of Christ in flaming fire coming down on the wicked from God out of Heaven.
Someday God will say to the Son, it is time and God will send us Christ again.

The first time Christ came was for sin, the second time for our salvation, (Hebrews 9:28), a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time is what Peter says. A salvation that is deliverance from the evil of that time. It will be worse than the time that Noah experienced.

Christ's return means our salvation and for the unbelieving world certain destruction of God's wrath on them. And the people of that time are also fully sold out to Satan, it is not like they are good people. They are under a strong delusion from God because they refused to love the truth and be saved, so they knew. So they believe the LIE...

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Fast​

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.


Satan's restrainer is the angel (Michael), who locked him up in that pit. Satan gets released at the end and works all this terrible wrath on the whole world through his one world government of evil over the nations. If Satan could do that today, he certainly would, but he is prevented, as in restrained in a spiritual imprisonment.

v13 explains how because of the love God has for His elect whom he chose, we are saved by the gospel of Christ, as God granted US to know Him. And that from before time began, we were chosen in Him.

Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are all in here blabbing away.
All of us.
I assume you are a born again believer.
But apparently you hate your brother in Christ.
That is the difference.
I see your salvation as NOT THREATENED by your eschatology.
You see believers who disagree with your doctrine as people from hell.

YOU are the one who told a Christian, covenantee, in post #92, that he will miss the rapture just because he disagreed with your doctrine. So, what you're saying here applies to yourself. Stop being a hypocrite and look in the mirror. You "see believers who disagree with your doctrine as people from hell.". You are accusing others of doing what you are doing. Work on yourself before trying to correct others.

 

[MA2444]

BTW, I don't get the connection with Jesus and Twilight Zone music? That sounds demonic not something that would be associated with Jesus. After all, that program was not a Christian program or something, nor a program Christ might approve of.

Nah, I said I heard twilight zobe music (not really) because it was a supernatural incident which occured. Out of the norm so to say. That's all that was.

In the 80s I used to be involved in the Charismatic movements, speaking in tongues, the whole 9 yards. Eventually, maybe the early 90s I got out of that movement and never looked back. And to this day I don't regret it. I no longer speak in tongues nor do I want to, nor do I want to be involved in the Charismatic movement ever again.

Thats not charismatic anything, that was just what happened. The first time I spoke in tongues I had nothing to do with it! I had heard about it and had a couple people offer me to teach me how to speak in tongues, and I never said yes. That don't make sense to me that I just speak for the Holy Spirit! How could I? I surely cant put words in His mouth. But I had been reading on it and studying on it and hearing teaching videos on it and stuff and I had never done it before and it was just one of those things you hear about. They sound goofy to me when they do it on tv or in a video. But I wouldn't try to because if that is the Holy Spirit praying for us because we don't know for what we should be praying for, is scripture. So it cant be something that I do. Oh I prayed and asked for it mostly so I could out it to rest in my mind.

And one day there I am, not even thinking about tongues, and it was time to pray for me so I sat down and began to pray (in English!) to the Lord and I opened my mouth and I started speaking tongues not on my own! On someone else's own! I knew right away it was the Holy Spirit so I stand down and just let the Holy Spirit finish his prayer for me and when he stopped praying in tongues through me, I said Amen! And then I prayed my own prayer.

I'm usually pretty skeptical about this sort of thing. But this time, it was real and I can not deny that. Sometimes I wake up speaking in tongues!

 

[Scott Downey]

v10 in Ephesians 1 is the gathering of us in Him and also all things in Him both in heaven and earth, and that include the angels of God.
And that occurs at the last Trump at the return of Christ. God brings with Christ all the angels and all the saints who are in heaven, and we meet them all as we are caught up from the world to be with them and Him forever.

10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him

There shall be One Flock and One Shepherd to lead them.

1 Thess 4

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Even Abraham was there! He got "bailed out" also when Jesus came and bailed them all out Him Self! Just like when Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church.
Then at the 2nd coming, it says that He sends His Angels to gather the elect.

See? Post trib don't work!

This is not a valid argument. For one thing we're not told exactly how the souls and spirits of dead believers were brought from captivity to paradise (the third heaven). Angels could have been involved. We're not given a lot of details about that. Regardless, what happened there cannot be used to prove one way or another what will happen when Jesus returns. Your doctrine is based on speculation rather than on clears scripture.

I used to be solid post-trib believer and I had to read the scriptures many many times before it all made sense. He says he comes as a thief in the night. That means when we dont expect Him.

For post-trib rapture to worl all the scriptures will contradict each other. The rapture is for sure pre trib.

It for sure is not pre-trib and nothing you're saying proves that it is. Why do you think Him coming as a thief has to be pre-trib just because it will be unexpected? He said no one knows the day or hour of His coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13), but He also said we can know when it is near (Matt 24:32-33). So, in the case of believers we may not know the exact day or hour He is coming, but we ar eexpecting Him to come and we can know when His coming is near. So, it won't be completely unexpected to us like it is for unbelievers who don't even expect Him to come at all.

He is still saying He is coming as a thief as of the time of the sixth vial. I'm sure you would agree that the tribuation will have already started by the time of the sixth vial?

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

I'm pretty sure you would acknowledge that the tribulation has started by this point and, yet, He will not have come as a thief yet at this point. So ,how can you think that His coming as a thief is pre-trib?

 

[Davidpt]

That is right.

Here is Luke's version which clearly shows this. v20-24 has occurred and is ongoing.
v25-27 is future

Not sure when the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled, but it's not yet. We are still in that time, is what I think, but it's getting closer.
Jerusalem is still split between jew and gentile quarters.

The Destruction of Jerusalem​

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

There is also the possibility that Jesus ultimately meant the following since He would obviously be familiar with that prophecy.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground .


Even the wailing wall is not going to still be standing once this is fulfilled. I'm not insisting I'm correct, therefore, nothing to debate. I don't know if I'm correct or not. All I know is, the fact that, what they call today the wailing wall, it remained standing, therefore, I don't see that fully agreeing with Jesus' words at the time--There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

But I can for sure see--- and every wall shall fall to the ground---fully agreeing with Jesus' words when He said--There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

IOW, some of it got thrown down 2000 years ago. The remainder of it gets thrown down 2000 years later, assuming Jesus returns sometime before 2070 AD.

 

[Scott Downey]

There is also the possibility that Jesus ultimately meant the following since He would obviously be familiar with that prophecy.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground .


Even the wailing wall is not going to still be standing once this is fulfilled. I'm not insisting I'm correct, therefore, nothing to debate. I don't know if I'm correct or not. All I know is, the fact that, what they call today the wailing wall, it remained standing, therefore, I don't see that fully agreeing with Jesus' words at the time--There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

But I can for sure see--- and every wall shall fall to the ground---fully agreeing with Jesus' words when He said--There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

IOW, some of it got thrown down 2000 years ago. The remainder of it gets thrown down 2000 years later, assuming Jesus returns sometime before 2070 AD.

Actually, I have heard an alternative view of the origin of the wailing wall. it was part of the Roman legion garrison in Jerusalem, so is not part of Herod's temple. Ironic if true that the unbelieving Jews, are worshipping and praying at a wall that was of Roman origin who oppressed them back then

The Wailing Wall & Evidence for the Real Site of the Temple in Jerusalem - Christian Observer

The Wailing Wall as a Jewish holy place is a modern invention that was selected for Jewish worship by one of the greatest mystics of the Kabbalistic age. His name was Isaac Luria … who in his many geographical mistakes … selected the Western Wall as a holy place for ... Read More

christianobserver.net

I lean towards that as the Jews are no longer inspired of God and deceived about many things down to the present day

********************************
The Wailing Wall is actually the remains of a Roman fortress called “Fort Antonia” built north of the actual Temple where no protruding rock ever existed but rather was built upon the Gihon Spring.

The rock upon which the Dome of the Rock was built adjoining the Western Wall was actually the centerpiece around which Fort Antonia was built. There’s nothing sacred about this rock or this Wall.

This is attested to by the eyewitness, Jewish historian Josephus, who also wrote in his “Jewish Wars” that the Romans left nothing above or below ground of the Second Temple so that one coming to Jerusalem thereafter would never believe a Temple ever existed.

According to Josephus, Titus, the Roman General who razed Jerusalem to the ground in 70 AD, allowed Fort Antonia to remain to house the Tenth Legion left to monitor Roman affairs in Jerusalem.

And thus the prophecy of Christ, “Not one stone will be left upon another,” was fulfilled. God will not be mocked.

If you still don’t believe me, then get the book, “The Temples That Jerusalem Forgot,” by Professor Dr Ernest Martin, and you’ll surely be convinced.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is also the possibility that Jesus ultimately meant the following since He would obviously be familiar with that prophecy.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground .


Even the wailing wall is not going to still be standing once this is fulfilled. I'm not insisting I'm correct, therefore, nothing to debate. I don't know if I'm correct or not. All I know is, the fact that, what they call today the wailing wall, it remained standing, therefore, I don't see that fully agreeing with Jesus' words at the time--There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The wailing wall is not part of the temple buildings that Jesus said would be destroyed. The disciples specifically referred to the temple buildings and not walls and that is what Jesus said would be destroyed. Walls are not buildings. The temple buildings, which would have been separate from any retaining walls, were completely destroyed with no stone left upon another in 70 AD just as Jesus said they would be.

 

[Scott Downey]

The wailing wall is not part of the temple buildings that Jesus said would be destroyed. The disciples specifically referred to the temple buildings and not walls and that is what Jesus said would be destroyed. Walls are not buildings. The temple buildings, which would have been separate from any retaining walls, were completely destroyed with no stone left upon another in 70 AD just as Jesus said they would be.

Josephus wrote the same thing, that all temple building stones were taken apart and removed. He should know.

And if we believe what Christ said, we will also believe the same.

 

[Davidpt]

We are all in here blabbing away.
All of us.
I assume you are a born again believer.
But apparently you hate your brother in Christ.
That is the difference.
I see your salvation as NOT THREATENED by your eschatology.
You see believers who disagree with your doctrine as people from hell.

No way do I hate a brother in Christ, period. It is not acceptable to get to that point, ever. Some may have got to that point for all I know. Not meaning anyone in particular. Just meaning in general. But I never will, ever. I don't know what I was thinking when I made that post? It was just one of those days, I guess. If I could do it all over again I would do it differently. Some things I would just keep to myself, like the offensive things I said. After thinking about it some, if I'm going to be honest, I regret making a post like that. I wish I wouldn't have done it after all. I am sincerely sorry that I did.

I despise that doctrine because what if Christ would have had that escapism mentality? Instead of facing the cross, He was seeking a way to escape it instead? None of us would have any hope had He failed. Why is it that it is ok that he had to suffer because of us, but when it comes to us we get the easy road? Or, some don't but some do. The ones that do get the easy road, assuming Pretrib is true, why do they deserve the easy road but all these others don't? What makes Pretribbers more special?


Eventually, thus a matter of time, at least 2 false doctrines are going to be fully exposed. 1, the false doctrine that insists great tribulation(Matthew 24:21) was already fulfilled 2000 years ago involving 70 AD. 2, the false doctrine Pretrib rapture. The way 2 is going to be exposed as false is simple. At some point it's going to be undeniable that we are in great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, and that the church is still here, which means Pretribbers are still here.

 

[covenantee]

In some cases, obviously it is only meaning His disciples He was speaking to at the time. Such as the following, for example.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The reason why it's meaning them is because it is crystal clear that He is meaning them, the fact 'all these things' being mentioned were something they could clearly physically see with their own eyes at the time. In this case, it would be ludicrous to apply this 'ye' to other disciples alive hundreds or thousands of years later since there is no way they would be able to to see all these things Jesus was pointing out at the time. The reason being, because they were not there at the time in order to see those things when Jesus said at the time, See ye not all these things?

But that doesn't mean every single pronoun in the Discourse only applies to His disciples and those alive at the time. In some cases it might apply to His discples alive at the time plus any disciples in the future, meaning beyond the period of time they were living in at the time.

Matthew 24:4 ¶And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Like this verse for instance. Not only would this be applicable to them He was speaking to at the time, this would be applicable to any follower of His regardless what time period they are living in.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

This can't even get fulfilled until 2 Thessalonians 2:4 comes to pass first. IOW, this is not meant to be taken literally. It involves spiritual desolation not desolation involving a literal temple.

Therefore, this would be an example where the pronoun above can't fit the disciples He was speaking to at the time, since this is speaking of something that comes to pass in the final days of this age, not 2000 years ago. IOW, Jesus isn't always speaking in the literal sense all of the time. Sometimes these things have to be applied spiritually.

It is certainly true that there are ageless and spiritual applicabilities of Scripture throughout the span of God's dealings with humanity. The invalidities arise when Scriptural historical confirmations and fulfillments are denied and attempted to be replaced by futurized fantasies and fallacies.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

This was literally historically fulfilled in 70 AD when the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies, encircled and stood in the holy city of Jerusalem. Luke 21:20

 

[MA2444]

No, he was asking about what about all the Jews from past generations before the future time when you think everyone in the nation of Israel will be saved. So, he was talking about the Jews from the past almost 2,000 years or so. What about them? God didn't care about doing anything to save them, but He will save all the Jews in the future? That's what it seems like you believe.

You really have no idea then. Who said everyone in Israel will be saved? Not me. I've read that people from all tribes and nations will be saved, but I don't know if God plans to save all of Israel.

For the past 2000 years? Oh you mean after Jesus came and did His work on the cross. Whoever is in Christ and dies in the flesh, the flesh body is buried in the earth and their souls & spirits go to be with the Lord. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. That's how it is now because the price has been paid.

 

[covenantee]

Are you talking about the time that the Lord spoke to me audibly? That I should have tested that spirit? (I did not test that spirit!).

That was perhaps the weirdest thing when Jesus stepped into my room and spoke to me and told me to pray for a Brother in Christ that I know. When Jesus walked into the room (I never got to see Him!) but when He stepped into the room even before He spoke, I knew who it was, it is the Lord! The atmosphere in the room changed and became, like, electrified with power that was just radiating...(Whoa). Then He spoke audible to me, and what was weird was I immediately recognozed His voice! And I heard Twilight Zone music (sic) and went TILT like a pinball machine! How could I recognize His voice if I have (supposedly) never heard it before, or at least...I couldn't remember ever hearing it. But I recognized it as the Lord and marveled to myself that, how could I recognize it? But I did.

Do you think I did wrong by not testing that spirit? I didn't have to, I recognized His voice! I did and that's that. Actually it never entered my mind to test Him. But it wasn't necessary, because, when Jesus walks into the room, no verification is needed for he brings His Glory and power with Him.

He told me to pray for Brother Mike, whom I know from a online Christian board. I learned a valuable lesson that day, because I was totally stupid and I talked back to Him and questioned Him. I said, why? What happened? Is he all right?

And the Lord said (audibly), he needs help right now pray for him right now...and he did not address my (insubordination!) with words, but he changed his tone when he said that. He changed it to that parental tone that we use with our kids that means, do it right buster or it's big Trouble! That tone! And...that tone struck the terror of God into me! I felt the terror in the tone. I started thinking about Zechariah and how he got struck dumb for questioning the Angel!

Then I also understood that he was showing poor old dumb Ed some mercy and compassion! By not striking me dumb and only giving me a tonal warning! I immediately said, Yes, Lord. And went into prayer for the man. And that was the lesson I learned. When the Lord steps into your room and tells you to do something, the only correct answer is, Yes Lord and then immediately obey!

It never entered into my mind to test Him. And I was not wrong. Because, have you ever heard of an evil spirit going around enticing people to pray for their Brothers & Sisters in Christ? I never have. I have heard a couple testimonies where people tested Jesus when He came in or took them up or whatever. And both people said Jesus said nothing and held out His hands so the could see His wounds!

The way I figure it, if there's doubt as to who it is, test them. But when Jesus walks in, you wont need to test Him Brother! I guarentee it. btw it does say in scripture that my sheep know my voice! So no wonder I recognied His voice!

2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Without testing, how would you recognize whether or not it was Satan?

 

[MA2444]

This is not a valid argument. For one thing we're not told exactly how the souls and spirits of dead believers were brought from captivity to paradise (the third heaven). Angels could have been involved. We're not given a lot of details about that. Regardless, what happened there cannot be used to prove one way or another what will happen when Jesus returns. Your doctrine is based on speculation rather than on clears scripture.


It for sure is not pre-trib and nothing you're saying proves that it is. Why do you think Him coming as a thief has to be pre-trib just because it will be unexpected? He said no one knows the day or hour of His coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13), but He also said we can know when it is near (Matt 24:32-33). So, in the case of believers we may not know the exact day or hour He is coming, but we ar eexpecting Him to come and we can know when His coming is near. So, it won't be completely unexpected to us like it is for unbelievers who don't even expect Him to come at all.

He is still saying He is coming as a thief as of the time of the sixth vial. I'm sure you would agree that the tribuation will have already started by the time of the sixth vial?

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

I'm pretty sure you would acknowledge that the tribulation has started by this point and, yet, He will not have come as a thief yet at this point. So ,how can you think that His coming as a thief is pre-trib?

Your nuts it says it right in scripture. Jesus went to sheol for three days and took captive the captives there. Then He resurrected Sunday morning.

You are free to believe whatever it is that you want to believe. But I'll not debate your interpretation with you. Sorry.

 

[Davidpt]

Your nuts it says it right in scripture. Jesus went to sheol for three days and took captive the captives there. Then He resurrected Sunday morning.

You are free to believe whatever it is that you want to believe. But I'll not debate your interpretation with you. Sorry.

I don't know if that makes him nuts, but I do fully agree He went to sheol for three days and took captive the captives there. But not to the portion involving torments. He didn't go there and be subject to being tormented. As long as you're not meaning that section, I still fully agree with you.

 

[MA2444]

2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Without testing, how would you recognize whether or not it was Satan?

The very same way that I wouldn't have to ask who is this if I got a phone call and it was my ex wife or family or a friend. I know their voice. You don't believe me that I recognized His voice so I didn't know. But if Jesus ever walked ito the room you are in and spoke to you there wil be no doubt. So it's of little consequence that you don't believe me. I heard it so I know that I did recognize His voice.

That's how Jesus operates. He can't send everybody out with proof because He wants everybody to trust Him and have faith in Him.; He let me recognize His voice as my proof even though He did not let me see Him. So I got instant confirmation, recognition. But not objective measurable repeatable proof. He didn't show me His passport and He didn't have to!

I wondered after Jesus came and spoke to me and I had been telling people what happened and someone said something about testing spirits, did I test it. And I didn't so I wondered what if I had been wrong and could that have been the enemy? Nothing wrong with brushing up on security.

So I thought about it. What do evil spirits do? (steal-kill-destroy and entice to sin...did I miss anything? I'm 62 years old and been thinking about the existance of God for quite a long time now! And I don't ever remember hearing anything about someone got oppressed by a demon or possessed and said pray that a Christian Brother gets help. I never heard of a evil spirit goinng to a Christian and telling them to pray to God. Where is Pray to God in the list of Steal-Kill-Destroy-Entice? EVil spirits do not do those things! Pssst, your Brother in Christ friend is in medical trouble, pray that he gets help...!!!

I'm sorry Brother but that's not how they play the game. You are making a very good point by saying, Test the Spirits! Good point. But it was no angel of light this time, it was the lord, it was the Lord, It Was The Lord!!.

If I recognized His voice then, oh wait a minute, He says in scripture that He knew us before we were in the womb! Remember?So we stood there and talked. Then he sent me down to earth to be born and I got Amnesia in the trip!

I heard one tine some woman said, that little divot above our top lip under our nose was caused by an Angel touching us there right before we were born and that's how they gave us amnesia so we didn't remember where we are from! Is it true? I don't know. I know I have amnesia.

I was sent here into an ongoing war behind enemy lines and was born on earth. I had a hard landing and must've bumped my head or something because I can't remember my mission or anything. I do have a pack and it has a Field Manual in it (the Bible), and eventually I found the Radio (prayer). Later in the game I understood that I have a contact to guide me. The just call Him, Holy Spirit.

Being a Soldier with amnesia is not fun! But it is an adventure.

 

[Davidpt]

You're not addressing what I said in my post. Why not?

I made the point that in Luke 17:26-30 He compared the scope of the destruction that will occur at His second coming to the scope of what happened with the flood in Noah's day, which was global. That lines up with what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:3-7 where He compared the two events directly to teach other.

I also made the point that I believe He compared the type of destruction that will happen at His second coming to the type of destruction that destroyed Sodom, which was fire. That also can be confirmed by what Peter wrote in 2nd Peter 3. Paul wrote that Jesus will be coming "in flaming fire fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8), so that is more evidence that the destruction that will occur when Jesus comes again will be by way of fire coming down on His enemies.


Did you even read my post? I reiterated what I had said above, so I'm not going to say it yet again. It doesn't seem like you even read my posts I did NOT use the comparison to Lot's day as evidence that all sinners on the planet will be destroyed when Jesus comes, so why are you acting as if I did?


Why are you questioning me about that when I didn't even say that?


Please read what I said more carefully first.


So, after all that, you're saying what you said in this post didn't apply to what I said in my post even though you were replying to me, but you were instead referring to what someone else said? You should have made that clear in the first place.

You are the type to have quick answers for everything. Which then tells me you don't even take the time to consider something first. You have your theology all mapped out apparently, nothing to rethink, nothing to revise. That's not the way my mind operates. Sometimes we need to stand back for a moment and truly consider what someone else proposes. Obviously, none of us want to be wrong about anything, yet we all can't be right if we are all coming to different conclusions about the the same subject, whatever that subject might be at the time.

And besides, I clearly told you in that post I need more time to think about what you said, therefore, not having a quick answer for everything like you typically do. I haven't had time to reflect on it further yet. I have had my mind and time occupied with other things. I'm not exactly young any more. When I was younger I had better focus and could focus on numerous things at a time. Not so easy anymore now that I'm getting older. Or if getting older doesn't explain it, maybe I have some medical conditions that might explain it, except I never go to a doctor anymore in order to find out?

 

[The Light]

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Personally, I understand this verse like such, below, since I recognize that to be a Christian does not involve Jews only, but involves Gentiles as well. There is no such thing in our day and time nor will there ever be, that all Christians are only the Jews, or that all Christians are only the Gentiles. No, all Christians are both Jew and Gentile.

Then shall they deliver you up because you are a Christian(Jew and Gentile alike) to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye, because you are a Christian(Jew and Gentile alike) shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And the fact the text says ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake, this tells us that Christianity has to spread globally in order to make sense of the text since all nations are not in one small region of the planet, they are all throughout the planet.

Hi David,

I can agree with your statement...............somewhat. There are gleanings after the harvest, so of course your statement is correct. Meaning that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation. After this rapture, part of Israel will have its eyes opened and see that Jesus is the Messiah.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

After the harvest of the Gentiles, there will still be gleanings of Gentiles after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. This will be the poor and the stranger.

Leviticus 23
22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.

After the pretribulation rapture, there needs to be first fruits of the next harvest, hence the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel.

This is the harvest that will take place immediately after the tribulation of those days.........seen at the 6th seal.

You are correct that there will be both Jews and Gentiles harvested, but at the pretribulation rapture it will be mostly Gentiles and at the rapture at the 6th seal it will be mostly Jews.

 

[The Light]

What did the disciples do between verses 3 and 8?

Did Jesus tell them to go for coffee while He talked to Himself?

Well, I'm guessing that you must think that they experienced wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, and kingdom rising against kingdom. And then you must think that the disciples experienced famines and pestilences and earthquakes..........all the beginning of sorrows. Of course, that would mean that the disciples experienced the 1st 4 seals.........all the while chitchatting with Jesus.

You seem a little weak in the commonsense department brother.