Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[Scott Downey]

The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers​

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will [g]render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they [h]perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

 

[MA2444]

What happens to the Jews of past generations that died before this happens?

Oh you mean the ones in Abrahams Bosom, the pre Christ believers and unbelievers. They were waiting for the Lord in Abrahams bosom because Jesus had not paid the price yet! When Jesus died, He set those captives free and they are with Him now. And after that, since the price had then been paid, absent from the body present with the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

Oh you mean the ones in Abrahams Bosom, the pre Christ believers and unbelievers. They were waiting for the Lord in Abrahams bosom because Jesus had not paid the price yet! When Jesus died, He set those captives free and they are with Him now. And after that, since the price had then been paid, absent from the body present with the Lord.

Yes, they were the captivity as before Christ none could go to heaven at death, they had to wait to be perfected in Christ.
None of them received the promise (of eternal life and abiding in heaven), but they have it now.
OF faith and the OT saints

Heb 11

The Heavenly Hope​

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Only in Christ are we made perfect.

Christ is the Door into heaven to live with God. No one come to the Father except through Him.

When He ascended, He led the captivity captive, (He took them with Him)

Christ also descended into the lower parts of the earth (sheol) , so He took them out of that place of Abraham's bosom, meaning also Abraham died and went to the place of death as even he could not have eternal life without Christ.

 

[MA2444]

Yes, they were the captivity as before Christ none could go to heaven at death, they had to wait to be perfected in Christ.
None of them received the promise (of eternal life and abiding in heaven), but they have it now.
OF faith and the OT saints

Heb 11

The Heavenly Hope​

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Only in Christ are we made perfect.

Christ is the Door into heaven to live with God. No one come to the Father except through Him.

When He ascended, He led the captivity captive, (He took them with Him)

Christ also descended into the lower parts of the earth (sheol) , so He took them out of that place of Abraham's bosom, meaning also Abraham died and went to the place of death as even he could not have eternal life without Christ.

That's exactly how I believe it. We are on the same page, Brother! Hey we must be in the same cult!

The entire Christian body needs spiritual growth.

 

[Scott Downey]

That's exactly how I believe it. We are on the same page, Brother! Hey we must be in the same cult!

The entire Christian body needs spiritual growth.

Perhaps hopefully, God will show it to them. We are down here to learn about God and our salvation and tell any who want to listen of the good news that is in Christ. Don't worry over those who won't listen to the gospel. Christ tells us to shake the dust of that place off your feet, and keep on moving ahead with Him. God takes care of all things and us.

 

[Scott Downey]

God’s Infallible Purpose in Christ​

13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. (birth of Isaac)

16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the [f]immutability of His counsel, [g]confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two [h]immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we [i]might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[grafted branch]

All I know is, what Jesus said in regards to Noah's day would support no survivors. While what He said in regards to Lot's day would not support no survivors. Why would He then use one example that suports no survivors then use another example that doesn't?

In Genesis 19:23 Lot enter into the city of Zoar before S and G are destroyed. In this case clearly there were other cities that remained.

One thing both S and G and Noah have in common is that there had to be less than ten righteous before the destruction happened. In Genesis 18:32 the Lord said He would not destroy for the sake of ten and in 1 Peter 3:20 it was eight souls saved during the flood.

I would think no matter what our end time view is there would have to be less than ten righteous people (in a particular area or the entire planet) before Christ comes. I don’t know how that might work for Premil but for Amil there are probably more than ten Amil on this forum right now so until they see a sharp decline in their own numbers they have to maneuver around the “less than less than ten righteous” or admit the end isn’t close yet. Preterist have the righteous fleeing Jerusalem, just like S and G, so no issues with that analogy.

 

[Scott Downey]

In Genesis 19:23 Lot enter into the city of Zoar before S and G are destroyed. In this case clearly there were other cities that remained.

One thing both S and G and Noah have in common is that there had to be less than ten righteous before the destruction happened. In Genesis 18:32 the Lord said He would not destroy for the sake of ten and in 1 Peter 3:20 it was eight souls saved during the flood.

I would think no matter what our end time view is there would have to be less than ten righteous people (in a particular area or the entire planet) before Christ comes. I don’t know how that might work for Premil but for Amil there are probably more than ten Amil on this forum right now so until they see a sharp decline in their own numbers they have to maneuver around the “less than less than ten righteous” or admit the end isn’t close yet. Preterist have the righteous fleeing Jerusalem, just like S and G, so no issues with that analogy.

And it happened there were ZERO righteous in the cities, as the angels God sent to get the righteous out on the day God destroyed the cities of the plain. Lot's wife though looked back so was not righteous being disobedient to the angel's orders, and the daughters later on fell.

Unbelief is unrighteousness

Gen 19
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.

15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that [b]he said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be [c]destroyed.”

 

[grafted branch]

And it happened there were ZERO righteous in the cities, as the angels God sent to get the righteous out on the day God destroyed the cities of the plain. Lot's wife though looked back so was not righteous being disobedient to the angel's orders, and the daughters later on fell.

Unbelief is unrighteousness

Gen 19
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.

15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that [b]he said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be [c]destroyed.”

So what about the less than ten number? Do you see that being significant for the future coming of Christ?

 

[MA2444]

Christ also descended into the lower parts of the earth (sheol) , so He took them out of that place of Abraham's bosom, meaning also Abraham died and went to the place of death as even he could not have eternal life without Christ.

Even Abraham was there! He got "bailed out" also when Jesus came and bailed them all out Him Self! Just like when Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church.
Then at the 2nd coming, it says that He sends His Angels to gather the elect.

See? Post trib don't work! I used to be solid post-trib believer and I had to read the scriptures many many times before it all made sense. He says he comes as a thief in the night. That means when we dont expect Him.

For post-trib rapture to worl all the scriptures will contradict each other. The rapture is for sure pre trib.

Personally, I suspect that the rapture was delayed at least once. Remember when O'bama was President? It was like a black cloud of evil hung over America.
And perhaps enough people prayed and said, help us God! So God did? And here we are again with everybody comfortable again. It could be any day. I also only suspect that, since God is obviously doing something with Donald Trump, that the rapture may be after his term is up? But what do I know? lol.

 

[The Light]

So you don't believe that Jesus' discourse with His disciples is a fact, or that the Book of Acts is a fact.

But since both are facts, they convincingly rebut your clear fantasies.

Oh. Super strawman.

And you ignored the question. Here it is again:

Who are "you" in verse 9?

The YOU in verse 9 are the Jews that will be alive at the end of the age.

 

[covenantee]

Oh. Super strawman.


The YOU in verse 9 is the Jews that will be alive at the end of the age.

But "you" in verse 2 are Jesus' disciples at His Olivet discourse.

When and how did Jesus' disciples at His Olivet discourse metamorphose into "the Jews that will be alive at the end of the age."?

At which verse between verse 2 and verse 9 did that metamorphosis occur?

 

[Scott Downey]

So what about the less than ten number? Do you see that being significant for the future coming of Christ?

No, as there won't even be 10 righteous unbelievers in all the earth to escape judgement.
Abraham was just making sure God was the righteous judge of all the earth, so he counted down the numbers.

 

[Scott Downey]

Even Abraham was there! He got "bailed out" also when Jesus came and bailed them all out Him Self! Just like when Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church.
Then at the 2nd coming, it says that He sends His Angels to gather the elect.

See? Post trib don't work! I used to be solid post-trib believer and I had to read the scriptures many many times before it all made sense. He says he comes as a thief in the night. That means when we dont expect Him.

For post-trib rapture to worl all the scriptures will contradict each other. The rapture is for sure pre trib.

Personally, I suspect that the rapture was delayed at least once. Remember when O'bama was President? It was like a black cloud of evil hung over America.
And perhaps enough people prayed and said, help us God! So God did? And here we are again with everybody comfortable again. It could be any day. I also only suspect that, since God is obviously doing something with Donald Trump, that the rapture may be after his term is up? But what do I know? lol.

It's not the wrath of God during the great tribulation that Christians suffer, it's the wrath of Satan and this evil world against believers in
Christ.

Don't mix up the great tribulation as being all God's wrath, God sends wrath on the kingdom of the beast.
After Rev 12 we read about the wrath of Satan manifested against those who keep the word of Christ.

Rev 12

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven​

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The Woman Persecuted​

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [c]Christ.

 

[The Light]

But "you" in verse 2 are Jesus' disciples at His Olivet discourse.

When and how did Jesus' disciples at His Olivet discourse metamorphose into "the Jews that will be alive at the end of the age."?

At which verse between verse 2 and verse 9 did that metamorphosis occur?

Great question. The answer is verses 3 thru 8.

When did the beginning of sorrows take place? That should explain what you are unable to understand.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

[grafted branch]

No, as there won't even be 10 righteous unbelievers in all the earth to escape judgement.
Abraham was just making sure God was the righteous judge of all the earth, so he counted down the numbers.

Right, but in both cases there were less than ten righteous that either fled or entered the ark before the destruction happened. That is a common denominator for those two events which has to be put aside for certain end time views. A view that takes that number into account would be a superior view.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Am I really? Especially since Pretrib is not even true to begin with. It might be different if there was a chance that Pretrib might be true. The chance of Pretrib being true is zero. What about what you are? You want someone else to take your place for you. You want someone else to have to be hunt down and persecuted in your place. Just as long as it's not you, that all that counts, right? I can go on and on. Pretribbers have a selfish mentality because they don't mind if others have to suffer, just as long as it's not them that have to.

I used to be a Pretribber, BTW. For many decades. I had to deal with name calling as well except it never bothered me in the slightest. I never lost any sleep over it. I didn't get all bent out of shape over it. Because, the way I look at things in general, everyone has a right to their opinion. One doesn't have to agree with their opinion, yet they don't have the right to deny them their opinion since that would be Communistic to do so. Just like your opinion here. You have a right to it and you too spoke your mind. Yet, the way you apparently look at things, it's ok for you to speak your mind but it is not ok for me to speak my mind.

We are all in here blabbing away.
All of us.
I assume you are a born again believer.
But apparently you hate your brother in Christ.
That is the difference.
I see your salvation as NOT THREATENED by your eschatology.
You see believers who disagree with your doctrine as people from hell.

 

[covenantee]

Great question. The answer is verses 3 thru 8.

When did the beginning of sorrows take place? That should explain what you are unable to understand.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

What did the disciples do between verses 3 and 8?

Did Jesus tell them to go for coffee while He talked to Himself?

 

[covenantee]

Great question. The answer is verses 3 thru 8.

When did the beginning of sorrows take place? That should explain what you are unable to understand.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

The Bible records that there was famine “throughout all the world. . . in the days of Claudius Caesar” (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. “The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethern which dwelt in Judaea” (verse 29). Paul’s instructions concerning this “collection [of fruit] for the saints” is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a “Failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon.” Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Home, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilences; that is plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of “pestilence” at Home in the days of Nero which was so severe that “within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons.” Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A.D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 66. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that “frequent earthquakes occured, by which many houses were thrown down” and that “twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake.”

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: “How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once.” He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A. D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown — Laodocia being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A. D., the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

 

[covenantee]

Great question. The answer is verses 3 thru 8.

When did the beginning of sorrows take place? That should explain what you are unable to understand.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. But Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes, within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero “drove a dagger into his throat.” Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and “thrusting his thumb into the mouth”, carried the horrid trophy about. Otho “stabbed himself” in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then “dragged by a hook into the Tiber.” We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these “Disturbances in Germany”, “commotions in Africa”, “commotions in Thrace”, “insurrections in Gaul”, “intrigues among the Parthians”, “the war in Britain”, “war in Armenia.”

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor’s armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: “See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet.” The word “end” that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression “end of the world.” (See footnote on page 59). As Barnes says, the end here referred to is “the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem.”

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow