Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )
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Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Personally, I understand this verse like such, below, since I recognize that to be a Christian does not involve Jews only, but involves Gentiles as well. There is no such thing in our day and time nor will there ever be, that all Christians are only the Jews, or that all Christians are only the Gentiles. No, all Christians are both Jew and Gentile.
Then shall they deliver you up because you are a Christian(Jew and Gentile alike) to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye, because you are a Christian(Jew and Gentile alike) shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And the fact the text says ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake, this tells us that Christianity has to spread globally in order to make sense of the text since all nations are not in one small region of the planet, they are all throughout the planet.
The you is any and all Christ believers. Jesus is talking to those who are His people.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
You seriously need a break before you blow a gasket in your venom and hatred.
Your tired of being owned by others in your doctrine that I have blown apart.
That is why you hate any challenge..
You made a HUGE INVESTMENT in a doctrine that took you to the desert and died right out from under you.
The "you" were Jesus' disciples, and His predictions in verse 9 were fulfilled as described in the Book of Acts.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
All that you posted depends on a phrase.
"Last trump"
Ironically you ( and all postribbers) never look at rapture verses.
Instead you are obsessed with thumping the rapture verses.
It is futile trying to come up with one word smoking guns when the BIBLE SAYS "ALL DIE who refuse tge mark"
*********and**********
" power was given the ac to OVERCOME THE SAINTS"
**********and************
"....the saints loved not their lives unto death"
*************and**************
In Rev 20
"....they were beheaded BY THE ANTICHRIST, because THEY REFUSED THE MARK
*************and************
In Acts the innumerable number before the throne came out of the gt. (Ahem ,DIED DURING THE GT)
And yet all of you see yourselves as running from cave to cave ( all 20 of you) and getting raptured postrib.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Most everything is incoherent to you.
You are so busy obsessing over every word I say, confusion has become your portion.
You are getting crazy in here.
You need a hobby or something.
Exactly. Except many don't get that. Some think Jesus couldn't see past the first century and 70 AD in the Discourse, therefore, they conclude all these pronouns are only involving just the disciples He was speaking to at the time and those alive at the time. But then you have other views, Pretribbers mainly, having it being only about the Jews in the end of this age because the church has allegedly been removed. Neither of these views I mentioned above are even close to the truth, in this case.
Do you think that Matthew 24 is grammatically incorrect?
You apparently do if you think that "you" can morph from the disciples, to not the disciples.
The post you quoted in your post, what is it that he said that wreaks of venom and hatred according to you? If anything wreaks of venom and hatred it would be anyone insisting, that unless you believe Pretrib is true, you won't be included in the rapture. Where does Paul ever say that anywhere in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17?
Here's what he said in verse 17.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Nowhere did he say this instead. Then we which are alive and remain, but only if you believe the rapture occurs before great tribulation, otherwise you will be left behind because you refused to believe that the rapture precedes great tribulation, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Talk about adding to the text something not remotely found within it. What would motivate anyone to add that to the text? Is that something someone filled with love would do, or is that something one filled with hate would do?
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
Are you talking about the time that the Lord spoke to me audibly? That I should have tested that spirit? (I did not test that spirit!).
That was perhaps the weirdest thing when Jesus stepped into my room and spoke to me and told me to pray for a Brother in Christ that I know. When Jesus walked into the room (I never got to see Him!) but when He stepped into the room even before He spoke, I knew who it was, it is the Lord! The atmosphere in the room changed and became, like, electrified with power that was just radiating...(Whoa). Then He spoke audible to me, and what was weird was I immediately recognozed His voice! And I heard Twilight Zone music (sic) and went TILT like a pinball machine! How could I recognize His voice if I have (supposedly) never heard it before, or at least...I couldn't remember ever hearing it. But I recognized it as the Lord and marveled to myself that, how could I recognize it? But I did.
Do you think I did wrong by not testing that spirit? I didn't have to, I recognized His voice! I did and that's that. Actually it never entered my mind to test Him. But it wasn't necessary, because, when Jesus walks into the room, no verification is needed for he brings His Glory and power with Him.
He told me to pray for Brother Mike, whom I know from a online Christian board. I learned a valuable lesson that day, because I was totally stupid and I talked back to Him and questioned Him. I said, why? What happened? Is he all right?
And the Lord said (audibly), he needs help right now pray for him right now...and he did not address my (insubordination!) with words, but he changed his tone when he said that. He changed it to that parental tone that we use with our kids that means, do it right buster or it's big Trouble! That tone! And...that tone struck the terror of God into me! I felt the terror in the tone. I started thinking about Zechariah and how he got struck dumb for questioning the Angel!
Then I also understood that he was showing poor old dumb Ed some mercy and compassion! By not striking me dumb and only giving me a tonal warning! I immediately said, Yes, Lord. And went into prayer for the man. And that was the lesson I learned. When the Lord steps into your room and tells you to do something, the only correct answer is, Yes Lord and then immediately obey!
It never entered into my mind to test Him. And I was not wrong. Because, have you ever heard of an evil spirit going around enticing people to pray for their Brothers & Sisters in Christ? I never have. I have heard a couple testimonies where people tested Jesus when He came in or took them up or whatever. And both people said Jesus said nothing and held out His hands so the could see His wounds!
The way I figure it, if there's doubt as to who it is, test them. But when Jesus walks in, you wont need to test Him Brother! I guarentee it. btw it does say in scripture that my sheep know my voice! So no wonder I recognied His voice!
In some cases, obviously it is only meaning His disciples He was speaking to at the time. Such as the following, for example.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
The reason why it's meaning them is because it is crystal clear that He is meaning them, the fact 'all these things' being mentioned were something they could clearly physically see with their own eyes at the time. In this case, it would be ludicrous to apply this 'ye' to other disciples alive hundreds or thousands of years later since there is no way they would be able to to see all these things Jesus was pointing out at the time. The reason being, because they were not there at the time in order to see those things when Jesus said at the time, See ye not all these things?
But that doesn't mean every single pronoun in the Discourse only applies to His disciples and those alive at the time. In some cases it might apply to His discples alive at the time plus any disciples in the future, meaning beyond the period of time they were living in at the time.
Matthew 24:4 ¶And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Like this verse for instance. Not only would this be applicable to them He was speaking to at the time, this would be applicable to any follower of His regardless what time period they are living in.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
This can't even get fulfilled until 2 Thessalonians 2:4 comes to pass first. IOW, this is not meant to be taken literally. It involves spiritual desolation not desolation involving a literal temple.
Therefore, this would be an example where the pronoun above can't fit the disciples He was speaking to at the time, since this is speaking of something that comes to pass in the final days of this age, not 2000 years ago. IOW, Jesus isn't always speaking in the literal sense all of the time. Sometimes these things have to be applied spiritually.
What then happened with this Brother Mike you were to pray for?
BTW, I don't get the connection with Jesus and Twilight Zone music? That sounds demonic not something that would be associated with Jesus. After all, that program was not a Christian program or something, nor a program Christ might approve of.
In the 80s I used to be involved in the Charismatic movements, speaking in tongues, the whole 9 yards. Eventually, maybe the early 90s I got out of that movement and never looked back. And to this day I don't regret it. I no longer speak in tongues nor do I want to, nor do I want to be involved in the Charismatic movement ever again.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Still one stone upon another? No, that is definitely not true. The temple is not there in Jerusalem at all anymore. What Jesus said would happen to the temple buildings occurred in 70 AD just as He said it would. They were destroyed. Which is something we should celebrate (Jesus knowing the future and His prophecy coming true), but instead you deny it. He talked both about what would happen locally in and around Jerusalem, which happened in 70 AD and He talked about what would happen in the future related to His second coming at the ed of the age. Both futurists like yourself and preterists are wrong i thinking that the Olivet Discourse is all either only about the future or only about the past.
That is right.
Here is Luke's version which clearly shows this. v20-24 has occurred and is ongoing.
v25-27 is future
Not sure when the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled, but it's not yet. We are still in that time, is what I think, but it's getting closer.
Jerusalem is still split between jew and gentile quarters.
The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You're not addressing what I said in my post. Why not?
I made the point that in Luke 17:26-30 He compared the scope of the destruction that will occur at His second coming to the scope of what happened with the flood in Noah's day, which was global. That lines up with what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:3-7 where He compared the two events directly to teach other.
I also made the point that I believe He compared the type of destruction that will happen at His second coming to the type of destruction that destroyed Sodom, which was fire. That also can be confirmed by what Peter wrote in 2nd Peter 3. Paul wrote that Jesus will be coming "in flaming fire fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8), so that is more evidence that the destruction that will occur when Jesus comes again will be by way of fire coming down on His enemies.
Did you even read my post? I reiterated what I had said above, so I'm not going to say it yet again. It doesn't seem like you even read my posts I did NOT use the comparison to Lot's day as evidence that all sinners on the planet will be destroyed when Jesus comes, so why are you acting as if I did?
Why are you questioning me about that when I didn't even say that?
Please read what I said more carefully first.
So, after all that, you're saying what you said in this post didn't apply to what I said in my post even though you were replying to me, but you were instead referring to what someone else said? You should have made that clear in the first place.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are in over your head here. Everyone here can see that you are not able to communicate coherently. And you think that means I'm "getting crazy in here" just for pointing out that obvious fact? You are as delusional as anyone can possibly be. No self awareness whatsoever.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. You don't know me at all, so don't pretend as if you do. I'm just calling out your nonsense that everyone else her can see as well. You just make all kinds of claims while doing nothing to coherently back them up with scripture.
LOL!!! How exactly have you blow my doctrine apart when you don't even exegete any scripture and show clearly what you believe and why? You are full of hot air and nothing more. You have nothing to offer here.
I love any challenge. You are just full of lies. I take the time to exegete scripture and explain what I believe and why. You don't dod that at all. You just make a bunch of claims and think that's enough without backing them up with scripture.
Yet, you are completely unable to refute my doctrine, so your words are empty. You prove that over and over again with all your gibberish.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are a little child and are incapable of having an adult discusion. I said "Says the guy who tells others who disagree with his view that they will miss the rapture. What a hypocrite. You're as nasty as anyone on this forum, but you have no self awareness.". That is the truth. You did tell someone that they will miss the rapture just because they don't agree with your doctrine. That is ridiculous and shows just how incredibly immature you really are. As if Jesus is going to come from heaven at the time of the rapture and say to some believers: "Nope, I can't have you come up to meet me here because you weren't 100% correct with your end times doctrine. I know it doesn't say that anywhere in scripture that you needed to be completely correct in your end times beliefs in order to be part of the rapture, but that's just the way it is. Sorry about that.".
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't finish it. Ok I oly knew Brother Mike online from a forum and we had never met. My only way of communicating with him was by PM on the site.
So I said yes Lord aand prayed for him to get help right now he needs it, then Jesus up and left about the time I was saying Amen. So that was the strongest presence of the Lord that I had ever felt before (or since!). And I found myself sitting there all alone wondering what happened so I went online and sent Brother Mike a PM on the site. It took him around 4 hours to respond to me. I told him what happened to me today and that I had prayed for him and...what happened?!
So he said that he was in school, some sort of private school for adults. Very small, everybody knows everybody. so he was in class and his blood sugar started acting up and he knew that he had to get to the vending machines because they had sweet orange juice. So he's feeling woozy and walks out of class to go to the vending machines and, he collapsed in the hallway. Classes were in session so there was no one in the halls. And he sank to the floor and then suddenly a starnger appeared wearing a suit and tie. I think the suit & tie was over dressed for the school. But he said a man was there and he said I'm here to help Brother, what do you need? So he told him orange juice and the man went and got him a couple and gave them to him. And he was drinking them and clearing his head suddenly the man was gone he noticed. He wanted to thank the man for his help. But he was nowhere to be found. He said after class he asked a bunch of people in the school if anyone knows or seen the guy in the suit. Nobody knew him or seen him.
Then he went home and signed in on his computer and found out what happened from me! Soo, he's diabetic? And he had a close call, but the Lord loved him! I thought about it and I realized...God don't need my help to do anything. So I have to suppose that the Lord livledged me to help and be involved? Feels like it. I still get scared if I think back about that tone the Lord talked in to me!
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