Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[Davidpt]

David, if you do not mind, would you tell me please what is the great tribulation and is there a verse or two that tells me what, where, whe, etc.?

NOW i am certainly aware of those who look to Daniel to try and come up with a 7 year tribulation theory, but, unfortunately that it entirely unscriptural. I am interested in where it can be found in Revelation. Thanks so much!

Actually, it doesn't matter when great tribulation might be meaning or might not be meaning. That is irrelevant because no matter how you look a it, the last trump is always going to mean post great tribulation, even if great tribulation was 2000 years ago or is meaning in the final days of this age. That aside. Personally, I think great tribulation is involving the final days of this age and that it will be involving the 42 month reign of the beast(Revelation 13:5), for one. I certainly don't believe in any 7 year great tribulation. 42 months is not 7 years. Nor do I believe there will be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and that animal sacrificing resumes in it.

 

[ewq1938]

David, if you do not mind, would you tell me please what is the great tribulation and is there a verse or two that tells me what, where, whe, etc.?

The trib or great trib is the same period. In one gospel it is trib, in another great trib. Same period being described.

In Rev the trib is here:

The Great Tribulation is during the 6th trump but God's wrath first comes at the 7th trump:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come , and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If God's wrath had already been present before the 7th trump it could not be said his wrath has come when the 7th trump sounds. Clearly this is when God's wrath begins!

This proves the Great Tribulation is not God's wrath. Saints are beheaded during the Great Tribulation. Why would God have his own saints beheaded? That clearly isn't God's wrath against his own people. It's Satan's wrath which is happening during the Great Tribulation and the 6th trumpet. Revelation 12 tells us he comes with great wrath because his time is short. It's Satan's wrath that is used to persecute the saints and make them suffer Great Tribulation and horrible deaths.

Prophecy that Christian saints would be killed during the Great Tribulation:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath which targets Christians:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed , which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Christian saints killed during Satan's wrathful Great Tribulation:

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them : and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


The Christian saints killed during Satan's wrathful Great Tribulation are resurrected:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God , and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Its Satan's wrath not God's wrath during the Great Tribulation. God's wrath begins at the 7th trump.

 

[Davidpt]

The trib or great trib is the same period. In one gospel it is trib, in another great trib. Same period being described.

In Rev the trib is here:

The Great Tribulation is during the 6th trump but God's wrath first comes at the 7th trump:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come , and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If God's wrath had already been present before the 7th trump it could not be said his wrath has come when the 7th trump sounds. Clearly this is when God's wrath begins!

This proves the Great Tribulation is not God's wrath. Saints are beheaded during the Great Tribulation. Why would God have his own saints beheaded? That clearly isn't God's wrath against his own people. It's Satan's wrath which is happening during the Great Tribulation and the 6th trumpet. Revelation 12 tells us he comes with great wrath because his time is short. It's Satan's wrath that is used to persecute the saints and make them suffer Great Tribulation and horrible deaths.

Prophecy that Christian saints would be killed during the Great Tribulation:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath which targets Christians:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed , which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Christian saints killed during Satan's wrathful Great Tribulation:

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them : and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


The Christian saints killed during Satan's wrathful Great Tribulation are resurrected:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God , and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Its Satan's wrath not God's wrath during the Great Tribulation. God's wrath begins at the 7th trump.

Great post! There is nothing in that post that I might disagree with. Very well reasoned. Can't imagine anyone disagreeing with it. But, unfortunately, some will.

 

[CTK]

The trib or great trib is the same period. In one gospel it is trib, in another great trib. Same period being described.

In Rev the trib is here:

The Great Tribulation is during the 6th trump but God's wrath first comes at the 7th trump:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come , and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If God's wrath had already been present before the 7th trump it could not be said his wrath has come when the 7th trump sounds. Clearly this is when God's wrath begins!

This proves the Great Tribulation is not God's wrath. Saints are beheaded during the Great Tribulation. Why would God have his own saints beheaded? That clearly isn't God's wrath against his own people. It's Satan's wrath which is happening during the Great Tribulation and the 6th trumpet. Revelation 12 tells us he comes with great wrath because his time is short. It's Satan's wrath that is used to persecute the saints and make them suffer Great Tribulation and horrible deaths.

Prophecy that Christian saints would be killed during the Great Tribulation:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath which targets Christians:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed , which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Christian saints killed during Satan's wrathful Great Tribulation:

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them : and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


The Christian saints killed during Satan's wrathful Great Tribulation are resurrected:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God , and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Its Satan's wrath not God's wrath during the Great Tribulation. God's wrath begins at the 7th trump.

I am sorry but there is nothing in Revelation that I see where Satan comes onto the earth to do anything. Revelation is symbolic. When the Lord returns He will gather those both dead and alive who placed their faith in Jesus. Also, those alive who rejected Him will be destroyed by fire. This begins the 1000 year reign. After the 1000 years, the dead (who rejected Jesus) will be resurrected to be judged in the great white throne judgement. But before their judgement, Satan will be throne into the Lake of Fire where the beast and the false prophet were sent earlier. Then, the resurrected who rejected Jesus will also be sent into the Lake of Fire.

What does this mean regarding the great tribulation? First, it must take place just prior to His return. It is my opinion that this will take place in the last 3.5 years. During this 3.5 year period, the 144,000, which represents the Jews who had their blindness removed just as Paul some 2000 years earlier, will go out into the world preachinng the Good News. This will create tremendous anger and hatred against them by the little horn (papacy) since the 144000 will preach the true word of God and everyone will see just how corrupted they (little hornn / beast) have preached their gospel over the past 1500 and led so may into corruption.

 

[ewq1938]

I am sorry but there is nothing in Revelation that I see where Satan comes onto the earth to do anything.

Read Rev 12.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation is symbolic. When the Lord returns He will gather those both dead and alive who placed their faith in Jesus. Also, those alive who rejected Him will be destroyed by fire.

No, that isn't in the bible. He uses a symbolic sword, but that is against an army not all unbelievers.

What does this mean regarding the great tribulation? First, it must take place just prior to His return. It is my opinion that this will take place in the last 3.5 years. During this 3.5 year period, the 144,000, which represents the Jews who had their blindness removed just as Paul some 2000 years earlier, will go out into the world preachinng the Good News. This will create tremendous anger and hatred against them by the little horn (papacy)

The little horn is one person, the leader of the ten horned kingdom. It's not the Papacy. Think far larger and far more evil than the Papacy ever was and you still will barely know how bad it will be that is coming.

since the 144000 will preach the true word of God

What scripture says they preach anything?

 

[MA2444]

1 John 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

What are ways that we can try, or test, the spirits?

Does examining for the presence or absence of historical evidence not constitute one way to test the spirit?

If there is historical evidence that affirms what Scripture says, has not the spirit passed that test?

No that is not how to test the spirits. Scripture tells us exactly how to test the spirits. Do I have to look it up for you or can you find it?

Historical evidence is temporal and material and has nothing to do with the Spirit. Scripture says that too.

 

[MA2444]

What to believe?

1. Objective evidence
or
2. Subjective opinion

I'll take the first.

Every time.

I presented Scriptural historical evidence in post 70, and invited you in post 100 to present yours.

I'm still waiting.

So...the things of the Spirit mean nothing to you. Objective Evidence is the only thing this man will accept. So it surely sounds as if you are rejecting the things of the Spirit. Sorry to hear that, but if all you want to do is argue objectively of that type of historical evidence.

But these things that you speak of are material and temporal and so are carnal, so I can't talk to you anymore in a carnal manner.

There was a Samaritan woman who spoke very similarly to Jesus, as you did to me and said to Him hey, we believe in Jacobs well and we woeship there for it is historical! (or something like that, lol) The story is in John 4 but it's sorta long so I'll just give you Jesus's answer to her, ok?

John 4:21-24
21 Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem.
22 You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews.
23 But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. 24 For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”.../NLT

Pay close attention to v 23 & 24 and therein is why I dont want to argue doctrine on the basis of historical evidence! It's all about the Spirit now, Brother. If you can't do that then, good luck to you as you are unteachable.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Being called rapture wimps is probably nothing compared to what God is thinking of some of you.

IMO, the following might fit someone like yourself.

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

So offended that they feel the need to escape tribulation or persecution that ariseth because of the word by being raptured out of here and having someone else face tribulation or persecution in their place. Talk about selfish. Talk about cowardly. This doctrine of Pre trib is pathetic and couldn't possibly be biblical. And IMO God hates this doctrine even more than some of us do, no doubt. The reason why I think that is because I doubt God wants verse 20 and 21 to be true about anyone. Just because it might be true about someone doesn't mean God wishes it to be true about someone. It just means that God allows them to have the free will to decide for themselves. And that they have themselves to blame if verses 20-21 fit them.

What a nasty man you are.
Calling those disagreeing with you worse than wimps, to the point of dragging God himself into your nasty view of the body of Christ who dare to disagree with your grand canyon leaps.
You definately need some Jesus time desperately.
Take a chill pill with Jesus. Those that he died for you hate with a vengeance.
I just SMH at such a nasty disposition.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually, it doesn't matter when great tribulation might be meaning or might not be meaning. That is irrelevant because no matter how you look a it, the last trump is always going to mean post great tribulation, even if great tribulation was 2000 years ago or is meaning in the final days of this age. That aside. Personally, I think great tribulation is involving the final days of this age and that it will be involving the 42 month reign of the beast(Revelation 13:5), for one. I certainly don't believe in any 7 year great tribulation. 42 months is not 7 years. Nor do I believe there will be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and that animal sacrificing resumes in it.

The bible declares EMPHATICALLY that all died refusing the mark during the reign of the beast " the antichrist" .
Daniel speaks of the last week. ( 7 years)

Your doctrine is actually based on a phrase "last trump".

Psssst...the last trump is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.

I show you your ENTIRE deal has multiple holes blown in it.( and every postribber)
Huge holes a ship can sail through.
Your doctrine is impossible.
Impossible....It LITERALLY can not begin to be plausable.

It is like shooting ducks in a barrel.
You sit in ashes of a destroyed doctrine holding a burned match in one hand and a burned out gas can in the other, refusing to acknowledge you burned your postrib assumption to the ground YOURSELF.

Look at ALL THE CORNERS the postribber workbook painted you into.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of your doctrine fits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So...the things of the Spirit mean nothing to you. Objective Evidence is the only thing this man will accept. So it surely sounds as if you are rejecting the things of the Spirit. Sorry to hear that, but if all you want to do is argue objectively of that type of historical evidence.

But these things that you speak of are material and temporal and so are carnal, so I can't talk to you anymore in a carnal manner.

There was a Samaritan woman who spoke very similarly to Jesus, as you did to me and said to Him hey, we believe in Jacobs well and we woeship there for it is historical! (or something like that, lol) The story is in John 4 but it's sorta long so I'll just give you Jesus's answer to her, ok?

John 4:21-24
21 Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem.
22 You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews.
23 But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. 24 For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”.../NLT

Pay close attention to v 23 & 24 and therein is why I dont want to argue doctrine on the basis of historical evidence! It's all about the Spirit now, Brother. If you can't do that then, good luck to you as you are unteachable.

Well sort of.
It is 2 ways.
I can see things in the Spirit without a bible knowledge.
Then open the bible, and the bible confirms what I was shown from heaven.
*******or********
I can see what is written.
The pure word, without pollutants , omissions, additives, or a need to torture it to fit my beliefs, AND I GET A INWARD WITNESS, (THE SPIRIT) that it is true.
Everytime I look up a verse from a postribber, they seem to make a point ( to their friends and their psychie), but the Holy Spirit brings me to their "companion", which is "the impossibility of their theories".
Or He will tell me "keep reading" , and I see what they are saying is false, time after time after time.
Their deal isTotally bogus and without discernment.

I firmly believe they are so nasty because the wrong spirit guides them and they hate not only the pretrib rapture doctrine taught by Jesus, but also us that show them with the awesome bible, their wild beliefs are pure man made baloney.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Read Rev 12.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.





No, that isn't in the bible. He uses a symbolic sword, but that is against an army not all unbelievers.





The little horn is one person, the leader of the ten horned kingdom. It's not the Papacy. Think far larger and far more evil than the Papacy ever was and you still will barely know how bad it will be that is coming.





What scripture says they preach anything?

I would add that the beast and the false prophet are basically devils in men's costumes.
Even the white horse rider at the start of the 7 yr trib is basically a devil in a Jesus costume.

 

[MA2444]

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of your doctrine fits.

I see that myself as it is obvious as anything.

Maybe we're talking to carnally minded men who are scared of the spiritual realm? Uh-oh talking that spirit stuff is new age....!! Lol! And therein is the relationship with the Lord that everyone hears that you must have.

They don't worship in Spirit or in Truth. One time I said on a different forum that I was going searching for the Lord tonight spiritualy...and a (I think) well intentioned but misled individual spoke up to vehemently warn me about such practices as new age and astral projection and said that it's easy to accidently call up evil spirits in this way and that I should ot do that...(and about a dozen scriptures came to mind, it's not astral projection, the Lord is not 'out there', The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, Would the Lord give us a snake when we asked for a fish? and I concluded that either he doesn't read and believe scripture at all or else he is carnal man trying to find God in every way temporal and nothing to do with in spirit or in truth.

 

[MA2444]

I can see things in the Spirit without a bible knowledge.
Then open the bible, and the bible confirms what I was shown from heaven.

This is true and the bible is our confirmation (one of them) that it is true. I've never seen anything in the spirit with my eyes but the Lord spoke once to me audibly. But that's not what you are talking about either, right? You were talking about seeing with the eyes of your heart, and this I can attest to! It took me long time to piece it together and I stumbled upon (was handed?) the answer is in

AND I GET A INWARD WITNESS, (THE SPIRIT) that it is true.

I don't think I would be inaccurate to call this peace in my spirit. At first I didn't know what to call it so I said the Lord would ping my spirit like submarines ping each other. Except the Lord's ping is peace in our spirit. Therein is the inward witness. It talks about the peace of the Lord all through scripture so I encourage others to take note of that and study up on peace in the spirit.

It's easy to recognize when my spirit is troubled. It's also easy to discern peace in my spirit, espescially the peace of the Lord. And whatever it is about it will never disagree with any scripture.

These brothers that we talk to need prayer, and spiritual awareness and spiritual growth. Jesus is a very nice guy! There's no reason to be afraid to approach Him !!

 

[covenantee]

No that is not how to test the spirits. Scripture tells us exactly how to test the spirits. Do I have to look it up for you or can you find it?

Until you can provide objective evidence that you have tested the spirit, and that the spirit has passed the test, then your claim to represent the spirit is mere subjective personal opinion by your spirit.

That's pure cultism.

Historical evidence is temporal and material and has nothing to do with the Spirit. Scripture says that too.

So all of the historical evidence about Jesus' First Coming is "temporal and material and has nothing to do with the Spirit".

That's pure cultism.

Why are you off on this impertinent tangent? I thought we were discussing post 70.

Let's see your Scriptural historical evidence.

 

[covenantee]

So...the things of the Spirit mean nothing to you. Objective Evidence is the only thing this man will accept. So it surely sounds as if you are rejecting the things of the Spirit. Sorry to hear that, but if all you want to do is argue objectively of that type of historical evidence.

Until you present objective evidence, your claims re. the Spirit are merely subjective opinions of your spirit.

That's pure cultism.

 

[MA2444]

Until you can provide objective evidence that you have tested the spirit, then your claim to represent the spirit is mere subjective personal opinion.

Many a cult does such.

So all of the historical evidence of Jesus' First Coming is "temporal and material and has nothing to do with the Spirit".

That's pure cultism.

Here's a man who cant see the forest for the trees.

I am a cult now? Wow, that's a new one for me! Lol. I wonder what I should call it? Any suggestions?

Hey wait just a minute, you can't call me a cult because you've never made a donation to me. You've never made a payment on a jet plane for me so I could have one. So your just spouting nonsense, lol.

You picked the wrong guy to pick on bud, lol. Even the FBI wouldn't look at me, I am nobody, lol! A poor retired contractor. Uh-oh, better break out the millions honey, they're on to us! HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA That's great man! I needed a good laugh today.

 

[The Light]

Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation ) Pray you be counted worthy to escape= the rapture.

As someone who believes in the pretribulation rapture................I have to disagree with you.

The great tribulation is the time that believers are forced to choose between death and taking the mark. The Church will be in heaven before this event occurs. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. There will be another rapture at the 6th seal when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper, which is why there is a great multitude in in heaven in Revelation 7.

Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. The seventh seal is the one year wrath of God and has nothing whatsoever to do with the great tribulation..........ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[covenantee]

Here's a man who cant see the forest for the trees.

I am a cult now? Wow, that's a new one for me! Lol. I wonder what I should call it? Any suggestions?

Hey wait just a minute, you can't call me a cult because you've never made a donation to me. You've never made a payment on a jet plane for me so I could have one. So your just spouting nonsense, lol.

You picked the wrong guy to pick on bud, lol. Even the FBI wouldn't look at me, I am nobody, lol! A poor retired contractor. Uh-oh, better break out the millions honey, they're on to us! HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA That's great man! I needed a good laugh today.

Thanks for confirming the objective evidence of nothing but your own untested personal subjective opinionated spirit.

Cultism on parade.

 

[Davidpt]

What a nasty man you are.
Calling those disagreeing with you worse than wimps, to the point of dragging God himself into your nasty view of the body of Christ who dare to disagree with your grand canyon leaps.
You definately need some Jesus time desperately.
Take a chill pill with Jesus. Those that he died for you hate with a vengeance.
I just SMH at such a nasty disposition.

Am I really? Especially since Pretrib is not even true to begin with. It might be different if there was a chance that Pretrib might be true. The chance of Pretrib being true is zero. What about what you are? You want someone else to take your place for you. You want someone else to have to be hunt down and persecuted in your place. Just as long as it's not you, that all that counts, right? I can go on and on. Pretribbers have a selfish mentality because they don't mind if others have to suffer, just as long as it's not them that have to.

I used to be a Pretribber, BTW. For many decades. I had to deal with name calling as well except it never bothered me in the slightest. I never lost any sleep over it. I didn't get all bent out of shape over it. Because, the way I look at things in general, everyone has a right to their opinion. One doesn't have to agree with their opinion, yet they don't have the right to deny them their opinion since that would be Communistic to do so. Just like your opinion here. You have a right to it and you too spoke your mind. Yet, the way you apparently look at things, it's ok for you to speak your mind but it is not ok for me to speak my mind.

 

[MA2444]

Until you present objective evidence, your claims re. the Spirit are merely subjective opinions of your spirit.

That's pure cultism.

So he's calling me a liar now. But my problem with that is in order for you to demand 'objective evidence' you have to throw out one of the biggest bible themes of all the scriptures....Faith.

Didn't you watch Miracle on 34th Street? Seeing isnt believing...Believing is Seeing.

Not my rules, this is the Lord's Creation and Matrix, lol. He wants what He wants and He set it up to make that type of evidence of Him largely unavailable in order for us to trust Him. Yes Brother, the day will come when you will have to trust Him and without objective evidence.

Shut me down for no Objective evidence? !!! Lol. It doesn't work that way and I am a waste of your time. Your problem seems to be more with the Creator than with little ol' me.