Born again believers are NOT appointed to God's wrath ( the great tribulation )

[covenantee]

Keep omitting scripture and calling the body of Christ names.
Look at how far it takes you from Jesus.
Of course you will miss the rapture.
Anyone can see that.

Of course I'll miss what won't happen.

So will you.

 

[Davidpt]

Keep omitting scripture and calling the body of Christ names.
Look at how far it takes you from Jesus.
Of course you will miss the rapture.
Anyone can see that.

Being called rapture wimps is probably nothing compared to what God is thinking of some of you.

IMO, the following might fit someone like yourself.

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

So offended that they feel the need to escape tribulation or persecution that ariseth because of the word by being raptured out of here and having someone else face tribulation or persecution in their place. Talk about selfish. Talk about cowardly. This doctrine of Pre trib is pathetic and couldn't possibly be biblical. And IMO God hates this doctrine even more than some of us do, no doubt. The reason why I think that is because I doubt God wants verse 20 and 21 to be true about anyone. Just because it might be true about someone doesn't mean God wishes it to be true about someone. It just means that God allows them to have the free will to decide for themselves. And that they have themselves to blame if verses 20-21 fit them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Are you then wanting us to believe that during Lot's day every single sinner on the planet was wiped out when God rained down fire from heaven on a particular region on the planet? That this somehow wiped out sinners everywhere on the planet, even sinners not in that same region at the time?

I am the one believing the scripture. Both Christ and Peter's words.
You one of those 'local flood' people who did not believe God destroyed all except 8 in the ark?

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

2 Peter 2:4-6
New King James Version

Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

 

[MA2444]

If you have Scripture and/or history disproving what I've presented, then present yours.

But consult with the Judaean Christians first.

Thankfully not one of them was a dispensational futurist.

I don't understand what you mean. Are youinterested in finding out the truth, or just to win a debate?

No reason to start calling me names. I don't even know what dispensational futurist is. ?? All I do is pray for the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth in His scriptures and then I read it for myself, not sitting in a group of dispensational whatevers or Catholics or any group it was just me and the Holy Spirit.

So let me ask you something. Do you read the scriptures from your spirit or from your soul?

Because if you read it from the soul, then you ever will understand it because the soul is carnal and the spiritual things of God can not be received by the carnal man.

1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-10

 

[MA2444]

Of course I'll miss what won't happen.

So will you.

That's some good debating right there! Lol.

That all you got? Stuff like that? You can't stay on an academic level?

 

[MA2444]

Man I can't believe that this site is actually letting me post today! It's been so hard to even navigate this site that it keeps freezing up and stuff. Weird. Just this site, not other sites so that's doubly weird.

I've been slowly fixing it I think. It must be working because it isnt so bad today and is letting me post so maybe I'm on the right track!

 

[KUWN]

Nope
Only place the unbelievers are burned is post mil at the GWTJ.

You also misplaced the rapture.
No white horses at the rapture.
No trib.
It PLAINLY says The there is normal life commerce, buying and selling.
Peace time
And everyday life at the rapture.
So that is impossible to Wiggle out of.

Thank you Jesus for your COMPLETE WORD!!!!!!!

The dead in Christ and those who are alive... What tha?

 

[covenantee]

I don't understand what you mean.

Why not?

Are youinterested in finding out the truth, or just to win a debate?

Scriptural history is truth which wins the debate.

I don't even know what dispensational futurist is.

A dispensational futurist denies Scriptural history.

Do you read the scriptures from your spirit or from your soul?

Truth originates in the Holy Spirit, not "your spirit" or "your soul". John 16:13

 

[covenantee]

That's some good debating right there! Lol.

That all you got? Stuff like that? You can't stay on an academic level?

Define the academic level of what won't happen.

 

[Davidpt]

I am the one believing the scripture. Both Christ and Peter's words.
You one of those 'local flood' people who did not believe God destroyed all except 8 in the ark?

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

2 Peter 2:4-6
New King James Version

Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Hold on there a moment now. We're talking about what happened in Lot's day, not what happened in Noah's day, since it was Lot's day I was questioning you about, not Noah's day. I fully agree Noah's flood was global yet you falsely accuse me of insisting it's local. That's a lie on your part since I indeed believe that flood was global. My point then is this, Lot's day proves that not every sinner on the planet was wiped out at the time. You need to deal with that rather than trying to deflect from my point by changing the subject.

Jesus mentioned both Lot's day and Noah's day. Simply prove per Lot's day that every single sinner on the planet got wiped out at the time, even the ones nowhere near that region, thus no survivors. I already agree the flood in Noah's day proves it. I just want to know how what happened in Lot's day also proves that since Jesus mentioned both accounts.

 

[MA2444]

Truth originates in the Holy Spirit, not "your spirit" or "your soul". John 16:13

I agree with that. But the way I do it is by a conscious act of my will, I begin to read scripture from my spirit. I don't just flip it open and start reading. There is a changing of focus to the spirit and prayer to the Holy Spirit and then I read, know that the Holy Spirit is indwelling me and with me at all time waiting for me to acknowledge His presence before I begin to read.

I dont always but it is best to read scriptures three times to get the meaning of it. Once for the textual message, secondly for any possible spiritual principles illustrated, and lastly for the underlying spiritual message.

I know that spirit and soul are seperate inside of my mind and that the Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit directly (Which means the Holy Spirit talks to my spirit, directly) so my focus has to be from my spirit and on God. We are One body, with one faith, in one spirit with the Lord. But if we do not consciously (worship Him in spirit and in truth) approach the Holy Spirit with our spirit then we do not come into His presence for Him to teach and to give revelation.

The Holy Spirit is our teacher. But our part is showing up for school! We have to come into the Teachers presence and focus and pay attention with no distractions if we want to be able to learn what He has to say.

Would you agree with that?
I'm guessing prolly not, because the way you talk in your responses seems like I debate with your soul and not your spirit. And that's prolly pointless to do that. These are spritual issues and the carnal man can not receive them for they are spiritually discerned.

What does 'worship Him in Spirit and in Truth' mean?

 

[MA2444]

Define the academic level of what won't happen.

Yeah, you just want to argue. You don't seem to have an interest in finding the truth.

If you cant stay focused on the discussion about the rapture then why even post? That's what it means. Try to make the discussion more like two top professors discussing the finer points od something rather than two old retired dudes jawing at the bar. Lol

Just for fun. No name calling, no distractions, the topic my friend. The topic.

 

[MA2444]

The dead in Christ and those who are alive... What tha?

That would be

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord....KJV

Verses 13 & 14 tell us that some have died in Christ after Christ's crucifixion & resurrection so their body was buried in the ground but their spirit went to be with the Lord. Absent from the body present with the Lord. So what it's saying is that the people that are alive at the time of the rapture, will not be meeting Jesus in the air before the ones who have died in Christ. First they are resurrected and rejoin with their spirit & soul and then we all rise and meet Jesus in the air. Their dead body is resurrected and transformed into a resurrection body like Christ had after His resurrection. He was walking through walls and locked doors, remember?!

Jesus didn't remove the stone from the tomb, He went through the rock. It says the angel removed the stone so the women could go in and confirm that He is risen...!!

How can the Lord bring those in Christ with Him if they are dead in the ground? He cant. Only their body is in the ground.

V16 & 17 He comes with those who have passed on in Christ being Believers, He makes a shout, probably something like, Wake Up!!! And the dead in Christ rise and in the twinkling of an eye are transformed and rejoined with their spirit & soul and meet the Lord again and either we rise at the same time to meet Jesus in the air or they go first and then us if we are alive at that moment.

That's what it is and what it's saying.

 

[covenantee]

Yeah, you just want to argue. You don't seem to have an interest in finding the truth.

If you cant stay focused on the discussion about the rapture then why even post? That's what it means. Try to make the discussion more like two top professors discussing the finer points od something rather than two old retired dudes jawing at the bar. Lol

Just for fun. No name calling, no distractions, the topic my friend. The topic.

You don't seem to have an interest in explaining yourself. Why is that?

 

[covenantee]

I agree with that. But the way I do it is by a conscious act of my will, I begin to read scripture from my spirit. I don't just flip it open and start reading. There is a changing of focus to the spirit and prayer to the Holy Spirit and then I read, know that the Holy Spirit is indwelling me and with me at all time waiting for me to acknowledge His presence before I begin to read.

I dont always but it is best to read scriptures three times to get the meaning of it. Once for the textual message, secondly for any possible spiritual principles illustrated, and lastly for the underlying spiritual message.

I know that spirit and soul are seperate inside of my mind and that the Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit directly (Which means the Holy Spirit talks to my spirit, directly) so my focus has to be from my spirit and on God. We are One body, with one faith, in one spirit with the Lord. But if we do not consciously (worship Him in spirit and in truth) approach the Holy Spirit with our spirit then we do not come into His presence for Him to teach and to give revelation.

The Holy Spirit is our teacher. But our part is showing up for school! We have to come into the Teachers presence and focus and pay attention with no distractions if we want to be able to learn what He has to say.

Would you agree with that?
I'm guessing prolly not, because the way you talk in your responses seems like I debate with your soul and not your spirit. And that's prolly pointless to do that. These are spritual issues and the carnal man can not receive them for they are spiritually discerned.

What does 'worship Him in Spirit and in Truth' mean?

1 John 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

What are ways that we can try, or test, the spirits?

Does examining for the presence or absence of historical evidence not constitute one way to test the spirit?

If there is historical evidence that affirms what Scripture says, has not the spirit passed that test?

 

[Davidpt]

First they are resurrected and rejoin with their spirit & soul and then we all rise and meet Jesus in the air. Their dead body is resurrected and transformed into a resurrection body like Christ had after His resurrection.

That of course only makes sense per post trib, certainly not per pretrib. Because, after all, what you have just described here can only happen during the last trump(1 Corinthians 15:51-57) . And clearly, the last trump is not meaning before great tribulation, it is meaning after great tribulation, thus post trib.

 

[MA2444]

You don't seem to have an interest in explaining yourself. Why is that?

Because I feel like it is a waste of time to argue with those people who only want to argue carnallly. It's very apparent in how people talk. and some people talk with a direction of, hmm let's all figure this out, and others want to be carnal and make remarks and try to bait people into wasting time when time is short.

I'm sorry to say that to me, you seem to fall into that catagory. So maybe we should just say agree to disagree and leave it at that. Go bait someone else. I have respected you and given you good solid answers about the scriptures and you never really address them.

I've asked you a couple questions and your answer is another question and therein is the red flag. I don't speak your language I guess. I get along just fine with most members and we all get some edifying together. I gave you good answers to the first post or two of yours, giving you a chance to talk and throw this thing around some. I used to be a post-tribber! A solid one, and my decision to go pre-trib was not done lightly or quickly. But I am teachable and always suspect that I am wrong. I usually say, is that you Lord?

From what I understand most people get around 8 hours per night of sleep. That's one third of our life!! By the time we reached 60 that means we have slept for 20 years, wow.

Job 33:15-17
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man...KJV

It is at night when the Holy Spirit bears witness and talks to our spirit, teaching us things. Our spirit has been listening to the Holy Spirit for more than 20 years at least, so I'd venture to say that our spirit is smart! He will always know the right thing to do.
I *think* that our spirit may talk to us in our Conscience? Because, if you think back, our conscience always tells us if we have done good or bad. Am I right? I know I am, and besides scripture says the same thing I like the way that the NLT puts it.

Romans 2:14-16
14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.../NLT

And they know God's law because the Holy Spirit constantly tells it to us. And we demonstrate we know it through our conscience and spirit.

Do you consciously try to read from the spirit? Or have you even ever thought about it?

 

[covenantee]

Because I feel like it is a waste of time to argue with those people who only want to argue carnallly. It's very apparent in how people talk. and some people talk with a direction of, hmm let's all figure this out, and others want to be carnal and make remarks and try to bait people into wasting time when time is short.

I'm sorry to say that to me, you seem to fall into that catagory. So maybe we should just say agree to disagree and leave it at that. Go bait someone else. I have respected you and given you good solid answers about the scriptures and you never really address them.

I've asked you a couple questions and your answer is another question and therein is the red flag. I don't speak your language I guess. I get along just fine with most members and we all get some edifying together. I gave you good answers to the first post or two of yours, giving you a chance to talk and throw this thing around some. I used to be a post-tribber! A solid one, and my decision to go pre-trib was not done lightly or quickly. But I am teachable and always suspect that I am wrong. I usually say, is that you Lord?

From what I understand most people get around 8 hours per night of sleep. That's one third of our life!! By the time we reached 60 that means we have slept for 20 years, wow.

Job 33:15-17
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man...KJV

It is at night when the Holy Spirit bears witness and talks to our spirit, teaching us things. Our spirit has been listening to the Holy Spirit for more than 20 years at least, so I'd venture to say that our spirit is smart! He will always know the right thing to do.
I *think* that our spirit may talk to us in our Conscience? Because, if you think back, our conscience always tells us if we have done good or bad. Am I right? I know I am, and besides scripture says the same thing I like the way that the NLT puts it.

Romans 2:14-16
14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.../NLT

And they know God's law because the Holy Spirit constantly tells it to us. And we demonstrate we know it through our conscience and spirit.

Do you consciously try to read from the spirit? Or have you even ever thought about it?

What to believe?

1. Objective evidence
or
2. Subjective opinion

I'll take the first.

Every time.

I presented Scriptural historical evidence in post 70, and invited you in post 100 to present yours.

I'm still waiting.

 

[ewq1938]

No unbelieving unsaved survivors! God destroyed them all. Remember Noah and Lot

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

A few cities were burned. It was not a global slaughter. You clearly don't understand this passage at all.

 

[CTK]

That of course only makes sense per post trib, certainly not per pretrib. Because, after all, what you have just described here can only happen during the last trump(1 Corinthians 15:51-57) . And clearly, the last trump is not meaning before great tribulation, it is meaning after great tribulation, thus post trib.

David, if you do not mind, would you tell me please what is the great tribulation and is there a verse or two that tells me what, where, whe, etc.?

NOW i am certainly aware of those who look to Daniel to try and come up with a 7 year tribulation theory, but, unfortunately that it entirely unscriptural. I am interested in where it can be found in Revelation. Thanks so much!