Babylon

[Davy]

I value Marin Luther’s scholarship over your futurist’s dogma anytime.

There you go... making FALSE ACCUSATIONS that I'm a Futurist when I am not.

You may not realize it, but I understand people like you, because you are more... concerned with MEN'S LEAVEN TRADITIONS and what THEY SAY instead of what God's written Word actually says.

I obviously confuse types like you, because you apparently like men's weak seminary categorizations instead of keeping to God's Word as written. I've been accused of being a Futurist, and a Preterist, and a Historicist at various times, so why do you think that is?

It is because anyone who stays... with what God's Word as written teaches, they will be accused of all of those silly seminary categories of men's leaven traditions at one time or another. And I'm talking about people in those seminaries that even have doctorates not being able to figure out that sticking to the actual 'written' Bible Scriptures will show the weakness of those seminary categorizations.

 

[Davy]

It hardly dawns on you that the ten horn is Revelation 17 are absent their crowns, which were present in Chapter 13,

Revelation 13:
1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. ESV

The implication is that the authority of the horns develops from the power of the beast that rises from the sea, which is the same beast in revelation 17 that “was” and “is not” during the time the sixth king “is,”

You don't have a clue... as to what you are talking about with that. That Revelation 13:1 beast is what is FORMING UP TODAY in this present generation! Other words for it are "New World Order", or one of their's, a "one world government".

Those "ten crowns" of that Rev.13:1 beast are defined in Revelation 17 as ONLY COMING TO POWER "ONE HOUR" WITH THE "BEAST" at the END of this world...

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

What? Those "ten kings" and that "beast" will make war with THE LAMB, and THE LAMB shall overcome them? Who is THE LAMB? THE LAMB is Lord Jesus Christ!

The ONLY time Lord Jesus comes to destroy that beast, and 'overcome' those ten kings IS ON THE LAST DAY OF THIS PRESENT WORLD AT JESUS' 2ND COMING, AS WRITTEN!

The Daniel 2 Scripture ALSO reveals that same above idea of Rev.17:14 with Christ's future 2nd coming being when those "ten kings" will be overcome by Christ.

Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

GOD did NOT... setup His Kingdom on earth yet, for Jesus Christ has NOT YET RETURNED TODAY! If you say He has already returned today, then it means you are a heretic and working against the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

 

[Davy]

Christ brings the saints back to earth from the air, when he returns, not from “heavenly dimension.” You’re making that up.

I NEVER said He will do that. You are STILL CONFUSING ME with Futurists!

Don't you really know what that "caught up" into the "air" reference in 1 Thess.4:17 is actually about?

It's about the "last trump" "change" that Apostle Paul taught about in 1 Cor.15:51-52.

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

But did you not know that above 17th verse is ONLY about Christ's gathering of His saints that are STILL ALIVE ON EARTH? It is NOT about His gathering of the dead in Christ.

The previous 1 Thess.4:13-16 verses are about the 'asleep' saints that have already died being gathered by Christ which He brings with Him from Heaven when He comes, as written. That means TWO SEPARATE GROUPS OF SAINTS BEING GATHERED ON THAT DAY OF HIS 2ND COMING, NOT ONE.

And don't you realize that Futurists DO NOT BELIEVE Christ comes to gather His saints at His 2nd coming on the last day of this world?? I told you that I am NOT a Futurist, and even showed you that I believe in a POST-TRIBULATIONAL COMING BY CHRIST JESUS AND GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.

So what is YOUR PROBLEM?

Have you just come here to push men's LEAVEN DOCTRINES of the OLD 15TH-16TH CENTURY REFORMATION?

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Sound arguments against cultism.

That’s projection. Post and amills are the “progressive” wing of the Church. They try and gaslight us into believing in Christ’s “rule in-name-only, or a "nerf" rule,” as ewq1938 expressed it.

Colossians 1:13 and Romans 8:35-39 don’t support Christ is on David’s throne. Such crazy thinking is exposed by the NT’s confirmation that Christ returns to consummate our “temporal” as well a “spiritual” security by giving us rule, power and authority over the nations in the age to come (Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1-5; Zechariah 14).

Our solace in this age is in the promise he “returns” to deliver us from tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, and the sword not only in a spiritual or nerf sense but a temporal one, also. As Christ declared, “For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man” in Matthew 24:37 (ESV), which is how Peter also describes Christ’s return,

2 Peter 3:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

All things continue from the beginning of creation till the Son of man returns. Those things would be the tares growing alongside the wheat, nation rising against nation, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, the saints being delivered up to be afflicted, killed, hated of all nation for Christ’s sake, betrayed, deceived by false prophets, iniquity abounding, love waxing cold and the “need” of the gospel to be preached to “all the world” before “the coming of the Son of man,”

Matthew 24:
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All things are still the same today as they were in the beginning to scoffers. Christ’s kingdom is commensurate with the realization that these conditions change at Christ’s return–especially to the scoffers and rebellious,

1 Peter 4
16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Post and Amill can’t gaslight Premillennialists that we’re in Christ’s kingdom because “all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” You’re only projecting your own weakness in accusing anyone of cultish heterodoxy. I’ll remind you; the inheritors of the gospel were Chiliasts and were dominate in the Church for over three-hundred years before the heterodoxy of amill arose with the Roman Emperors. The Roman Church rose up literally in the seat of Satan,

Revelation 2
12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: 'The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.
13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Christ prophesied the Church’s legitimization as the Pergamum period. Rome was defiantly the seat of Satan.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Weak response. He is certainly not someone who can be taken seriously at all. You don't accept what Paul taught which is that God delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Colossians 1:12-13). It's sad that you deny that He is the King right now. What cult are you part of which denies His Kingship? Many Premills know enough to not deny that He reigns now spiritually, so this must be a teaching of some cult that you are following. Premill itself does not teach that He doesn't reign in any way, shape or form now as you believe.

You don't even accept what Jesus Himself said which is that He has all power and authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). You try to turn Him into a dictator, but He doesn't rule that way. That is how the Pharisees thought the Messiah should rule as well, so you have that in common with them.

It’s appropriate that you bring up the Pharisees because they were clueless about “two advents” of the Messiah in the OT. They were looking for the Messiah to fulfill his role as king in the second advent, but were blind to the evidence that he wasn’t to come as king at the first. His role as king is fulfilled at the gathering of Israel, at his return (Matthew 25:31, 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12),

Jeremiah 23:
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Actually, post and amill have the same problem as the Pharisees, they think Christ fulfills his role as king at the first advent, when it’s actually the second in which he fulfills that role,

Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. ESV

Revelation 3
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

No, soul sleep is the pagan doctrine. Does it look like the souls John saw were sleeping? You have no discernment.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

How about Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration? Were they sleeping and talking at the same time?

You’re calling Christ a pagan,

John 11
11 After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."

Christ symbolized Lazarus’ death to sleep, not the pagans.

Your heterodoxy literalizes Revelation 6:9 and allegorizes Revelation 20:4. Orthodoxy allegorizes Revelation 6:9 and literalizes Revelation 20:4.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

You don't have a clue... as to what you are talking about with that. That Revelation 13:1 beast is what is FORMING UP TODAY in this present generation! Other words for it are "New World Order", or one of their's, a "one world government".

Those "ten crowns" of that Rev.13:1 beast are defined in Revelation 17 as ONLY COMING TO POWER "ONE HOUR" WITH THE "BEAST" at the END of this world...

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

What? Those "ten kings" and that "beast" will make war with THE LAMB, and THE LAMB shall overcome them? Who is THE LAMB? THE LAMB is Lord Jesus Christ!

The ONLY time Lord Jesus comes to destroy that beast, and 'overcome' those ten kings IS ON THE LAST DAY OF THIS PRESENT WORLD AT JESUS' 2ND COMING, AS WRITTEN!

The Daniel 2 Scripture ALSO reveals that same above idea of Rev.17:14 with Christ's future 2nd coming being when those "ten kings" will be overcome by Christ.

Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

GOD did NOT... setup His Kingdom on earth yet, for Jesus Christ has NOT YET RETURNED TODAY! If you say He has already returned today, then it means you are a heretic and working against the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

No need to yell.

When the seventh king’s reign come to an end, the beast in Revelation 17 has “one hour” to form an alliance with the ten kings to make war with Christ at his return.

The beast in Revelation 13 has power for 42 months to persecute the Church,

Revelation 13
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months…
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

Obviously, Revelation 13 and 17 are chronological because the 42 months must commence prior the “last hour” of the beast.

Since Revelation 13 and 17 cannot be chronologically reversed then the ten kings gain their crowns with the rise of the beast and lose them when the beast suffers its deadly wound, depicted in Revelation 17. They take their crowns up again with the rise of the beast, who suffers the deadly wound,

Revelation 13
3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

I NEVER said He will do that. You are STILL CONFUSING ME with Futurists!

Don't you really know what that "caught up" into the "air" reference in 1 Thess.4:17 is actually about?

It's about the "last trump" "change" that Apostle Paul taught about in 1 Cor.15:51-52.

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

But did you not know that above 17th verse is ONLY about Christ's gathering of His saints that are STILL ALIVE ON EARTH? It is NOT about His gathering of the dead in Christ.

The previous 1 Thess.4:13-16 verses are about the 'asleep' saints that have already died being gathered by Christ which He brings with Him from Heaven when He comes, as written. That means TWO SEPARATE GROUPS OF SAINTS BEING GATHERED ON THAT DAY OF HIS 2ND COMING, NOT ONE.

And don't you realize that Futurists DO NOT BELIEVE Christ comes to gather His saints at His 2nd coming on the last day of this world?? I told you that I am NOT a Futurist, and even showed you that I believe in a POST-TRIBULATIONAL COMING BY CHRIST JESUS AND GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.

So what is YOUR PROBLEM?

Have you just come here to push men's LEAVEN DOCTRINES of the OLD 15TH-16TH CENTURY REFORMATION?

You’re a futurist because you believe the little horn, the beast in Revelation 13 must symbolizes an individual and not a system, government, nor “a power that be” in prophecy. You’re not being consistent. While the chiliast interpreted said entity as an individual–they were not privy to the last two thousand years, and you have. It must be dawning on you that we’ve been living in the time of the rich merchants for more than two-hundred years. What does that say about the prophecy the fallen harlot is guilty of making the merchants rich? The fulfillment of the harlot has to be apostate Protestantism, how can it be any other, which affirms Historicism. The beasts are a symbol of systems, empires, ecclesiocracies and not strictly individuals. Individuals may represent them, but the beasts are predominately kingdoms or mountains, another symbol for a kingdom,

Revelation 17
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;
10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

I don’t want to come off as abrasive, as you have, but I don’t have to ignore impertinence.

 

[ewq1938]

It’s appropriate that you bring up the Pharisees because they were clueless about “two advents” of the Messiah in the OT. They were looking for the Messiah to fulfill his role as king in the second advent, but were blind to the evidence that he wasn’t to come as king at the first.

40. Did the false expectations the Pharisees had about the Messiah match the beliefs of Amillennialists?


Yes.

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future (not soon, not at the Cross or Ascension or Pentecost). Amillennialists make the same type of error the Pharisees did by claiming the rule over the nations is happening now and has been since the first century when the truth is the real rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Don't make the same Amillennialistic error the Pharisees did.

 

[covenantee]

Such crazy thinking is exposed by the NT’s confirmation that Christ returns to consummate our “temporal” as well a “spiritual” security by giving us rule, power and authority over the nations in the age to come (Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1-5; Zechariah 14).

More private faux "historicism". No recognized Reformation historicist ever subscribed to such futurized fantasy and fallacy.

FYI Isaiah and Zechariah are in the OT.

Reformation historicist John Calvin:

Isaiah 11:4
Here we must again call to remembrance what is the nature of Christ's kingdom. As he does not wear a golden crown or employ earthly armor, so he does not rule over the world by the power of arms, or gain authority by gaudy and ostentatious display, or constrain his people by terror and dread; but the doctrine of the gospel is his royal banner, which assembles believers under his dominion. Wherever, therefore, the doctrine of the Gospel is preached in purity, there we are certain that Christ reigns; and where it is rejected, his government is also set aside.

Reformation historicist Adam Clarke:

Isaiah 9:7
"This is an illustrious prophecy of the incarnation of Christ, with an enumeration of those characters in which he stands most nearly related to mankind as their Savior; and of others by which his infinite majesty and Godhead are shown. He shall appear as a child, born of a woman, born as a Jew, under the law, but not in the way of ordinary generation. He is a Son given - the human nature, in which the fullness of the Godhead was to dwell, being produced by the creative energy of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin. See Matthew 1:20, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 1:23, Matthew 1:25, and Luke 1:35, and Isaiah 7:14, and the notes on those passages. As being God manifested in the flesh, he was wonderful in his conception, birth, preaching, miracles, sufferings, death, resurrection, and ascension; wonderful in his person, and wonderful in his working. He is the Counsellor that expounds the law; shows its origin, nature, and claims; instructs, pleads for the guilty; and ever appears in the presence of God for men. He is the mighty God; God essentially and efficiently prevailing against his enemies, and destroying ours. He is the Father of eternity; the Origin of all being, and the Cause of the existence, and particularly the Father, of the spirits of all flesh. The Prince of peace - not only the Author of peace, and the Dispenser of peace, but also he that rules by peace, whose rule tends always to perfection, and produces prosperity. Of the increase of his government - this Prince has a government, for he has all power both in heaven and in earth: and his government increases, and is daily more and more extended, and will continue till all things are put under his feet. His kingdom is ordered - every act of government regulated according to wisdom and goodness; is established so securely as not to be overthrown; and administered in judgment and justice, so as to manifest his wisdom, righteousness, goodness, and truth. Reader, such is that Jesus who came into the world to save sinners! Trust in Him!"

 

[covenantee]

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away

That's pure modernist dispen/premil, the modernist incarnation of ancient pharisaic talmudism.

When Christ didn't establish a carnal kingdom, the pharisees set out to kill Him.

Today, modernist dispen/premil claims that the kingdom was "postponed".

Abject nonsense.

 

[Davy]

No need to yell.

When the seventh king’s reign come to an end, the beast in Revelation 17 has “one hour” to form an alliance with the ten kings to make war with Christ at his return.

Where in the world did you learn that? That's not what that "one hour" of Rev.17:12 verse means. Look at the verse again. It says those "ten kings" receive no kingdom until they receive power "one hour" with the "beast". Per Revelation 13:4-8 the "dragon" (the "another beast") is given to have power over all nations and peoples for 42 months. So that "one hour" is being given as a 'symbol' for that 42 month reign time of the "beast" king. And that is when those "ten kings" come to power with the "beast", and reign with the "beast."

Thus it means those "ten kings" reign CONCURRENTLY with the "beast", not AFTER the "beast" king's reign comes to an end.

The beast in Revelation 13 has power for 42 months to persecute the Church,

Revelation 13
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months…
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

Obviously, Revelation 13 and 17 are chronological because the 42 months must commence prior the “last hour” of the beast.

Now what makes you think Rev.13 & 17 are in chronological order, when the Rev.17 chapter actually DEFINES events written in Rev.13??? Do you even know what the word 'chronological' means?? It means an 'order of events, one after the other'. The Babylon Harlot of Revelation 17 is about the same 'time' of that 1st beast of Rev.13:1 and 2nd beast of Rev.13:11. They are CONCURRENT events that happen at the same time.

The difference with Revelation 17 is that it also contains verses that jump back to the past with Lucifer's original fall, and then forward again. And with the 8 kings description, it is an even 'wider' time span jump, from the first beast kingdom manifested during this present world back in history to the last beast king (7th) of this present world, and then with the final 8th beast king in the world to come per Rev.20:7-9. God's Word at times does huge timeline jumps between past-present-future, and we are expected to study in order to 'rightly divide' those timeline jumps in Scripture (2 Timothy 2:15).

 

[Davy]

You’re a futurist because you believe the little horn, the beast in Revelation 13 must symbolizes an individual and not a system, government, nor “a power that be” in prophecy.

Uh.... what??

You mean you cannot even tell the difference between the word "first" and the word "another"??

Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV

How many beasts is that about above?? TWO... not one!

The 1st beast is described in Rev.13:1-2 and is about a KINGDOM BEAST. That's why... it says it has "ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns"!

The 2nd beast is mentioned as "the another beast", which means a SECOND BEAST, and is a PERSON, AN ENTITY, the beast KING described in Revelation 17!

That follows the pattern which Apostle John showed for the idea of antichrist in 1 John 2:18, because John mentioned a SINGULAR "antichrist" shall come. And you should try reading some of the writings of the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS about that singular Antichrist, for I'm agreeing with them!

You’re not being consistent.

You are a whacko nut job! Your thoughts are so mixed up, it reminds me of dope heads I met in the military during Vietnam.

 

[covenantee]

I’ll remind you; the inheritors of the gospel were Chiliasts and were dominate in the Church for over three-hundred years before the heterodoxy of amill arose with the Roman Emperors.

False. Justin Martyr acknowledged amil at least two hundred years before the initial appearance of institutionalized apostasizing Romanism.

Your faux historicist history is as distorted as your scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It’s appropriate that you bring up the Pharisees because they were clueless about “two advents” of the Messiah in the OT. They were looking for the Messiah to fulfill his role as king in the second advent, but were blind to the evidence that he wasn’t to come as king at the first. His role as king is fulfilled at the gathering of Israel, at his return (Matthew 25:31, 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12),

Jeremiah 23:
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Actually, post and amill have the same problem as the Pharisees, they think Christ fulfills his role as king at the first advent, when it’s actually the second in which he fulfills that role,

Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. ESV

Revelation 3
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Do you deny that we are in Christ's kingdom right now which would mean you also deny that you have been delivered from the power of darkness?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

You’re calling Christ a pagan,

That is a lie. I absolutely am not doing that.

John 11
11 After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."

Christ symbolized Lazarus’ death to sleep, not the pagans.

Your heterodoxy literalizes Revelation 6:9 and allegorizes Revelation 20:4. Orthodoxy allegorizes Revelation 6:9 and literalizes Revelation 20:4.

LOL. That is talking about His body being asleep/dead, not his soul and spirit. Do you deny that humans have a body, soul and spirit?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Uh.... what??

You mean you cannot even tell the difference between the word "first" and the word "another"??

Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV

How many beasts is that about above?? TWO... not one!

The 1st beast is described in Rev.13:1-2 and is about a KINGDOM BEAST. That's why... it says it has "ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns"!

The 2nd beast is mentioned as "the another beast", which means a SECOND BEAST, and is a PERSON, AN ENTITY, the beast KING described in Revelation 17!

That follows the pattern which Apostle John showed for the idea of antichrist in 1 John 2:18, because John mentioned a SINGULAR "antichrist" shall come. And you should try reading some of the writings of the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS about that singular Antichrist, for I'm agreeing with them!

Why are you being inconsistent with how you interpret what a prophetic beast represents? Your increased font size and constant use of all caps make you come across as if you are unhinged. Maybe you need to take an anger management class.

You are a whacko nut job! Your thoughts are so mixed up, it reminds me of dope heads I met in the military during Vietnam.

He might be, but you are the one acting like one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's pure modernist dispen/premil, the modernist incarnation of ancient pharisaic talmudism.

When Christ didn't establish a carnal kingdom, the pharisees set out to kill Him.

Today, modernist dispen/premil claims that the kingdom was "postponed".

Abject nonsense.

Absolutely right. Premills still have the wrong understanding of His kingdom just like the Pharisees did. He very specifically taught that His kingdom does not come with observation and is not worldly (not like an earthly kingdom), but Premills expect it to come with observation and to be similar to any other earthly kingdom. They don't accept what Jesus Himself taught about His kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There you go... making FALSE ACCUSATIONS that I'm a Futurist when I am not.

LOL. He is right about that. You are just too ignorant to understand that there are various types of futurists. When you see all, or at least a vast majority of Revelation as still being fulfilled in the future, then you are a futurist.

 

[Davy]

Do you deny that we are in Christ's kingdom right now which would mean you also deny that you have been delivered from the power of darkness?

Now, now, now... you well know those are 2 separate subjects.

Christ's Kingdom is already established in SPIRIT today, but NOT His future PHYSICAL KINGDOM here on earth, that is still not yet today.

And IF... you do... wrongly believe Christ's LITERAL PHYSICAL KINGDOM is already established on earth today, then it means you AGREE with the devil's BEAST KINGDOM that is instead is being setup on earth today, right now, with man's New World Order ("one world government") which regards ALL religions as equal! It would mean you are ready to accept the coming "mark of the beast"!


Lord Jesus speaking...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

40. Did the false expectations the Pharisees had about the Messiah match the beliefs of Amillennialists?


Yes.

Such a foolish comment. No, we do not expect the Messiah to be a military leader who would immediately destroy all of His enemies at His first coming like the Pharisees did.

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't.

They expected Him to rule like an earthly dictator just like Premills like you do.

And He has been reigning since His resurrection. Just not in the way that Premills and Pharisees expect Him to rule.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

His rule would come far into the future (not soon, not at the Cross or Ascension or Pentecost). Amillennialists make the same type of error the Pharisees did by claiming the rule over the nations is happening now and has been since the first century when the truth is the real rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Don't make the same Amillennialistic error the Pharisees did.

This is utter ignorance and foolishness. Amillennialists do not look at things the way the Pharisees did at all. This is utter dishonesty and blatant wicked lying coming from you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now, now, now... you well know those are 2 separate subjects.

I'm talking to Jerry, buddy. Stay out of it. If you don't agree with him about this, then good for you. I'm addressing what he was saying and asking him what he believes. Clearly, you two don't agree on everything.