Babylon

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jerry Huerta

New Member
Feb 24, 2025
74
11
8
Tucson
historicist.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wrong but if you want to discuss it, then go ahead.
The dead in Christ don't share "his" throne until he returns, according to Matthew 25:31 and the last trumpet,

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The reward of the dead in Christ is sitting with him at his throne,

Revelation 3
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
 
Last edited:

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
7,260
1,443
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The dead in Christ don't share "his" throne until he returns, according to Matthew 25:31 and the last trumpet,

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The reward of the dead in Christ is sitting with him at his throne,

Revelation 3
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.


That last verse shows they do sit with him after dying and he gives the same example of him sitting in his Father's throne after having died. It is clearly an immediate thing for the saved when they die. Also the verse is set in heaven during the time BEFORE the second coming occurs. The other verses you posted are different than sitting in his throne with him after conquering which means to overcome which happens after death when one dies Saved in Christ.

You are confusing sitting in his throne with ruling over the nations which happens after the second coming.
 

Jerry Huerta

New Member
Feb 24, 2025
74
11
8
Tucson
historicist.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That last verse shows they do sit with him after dying and he gives the same example of him sitting in his Father's throne after having died. It is clearly an immediate thing for the saved when they die. Also the verse is set in heaven during the time BEFORE the second coming occurs. The other verses you posted are different than sitting in his throne with him after conquering which means to overcome which happens after death when one dies Saved in Christ.

You are confusing sitting in his throne with ruling over the nations which happens after the second coming.
We’re entering a different subject than eschatology here. I don’t accept that the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die. I knew that’s what you were getting at. If they were with Christ as you assert, Paul was wrong in saying that “we” will meet Christ in the “air” when he returns, if the dead already met Christ when they died and went to heaven (1 Thess 4:17). There are numerous problems with the idea we go to heaven when we die, but this is not the place. Start a thread in an appropriate place and let me know if you want to debate the issue.

And your assertion still doesn't hold water because the overcomers are promised to sit at "Christ's throne," not the Father's.
 
Last edited:

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
6,245
2,618
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Confirmed, ad hominem in place of a sound argument. :csm
Colossians 1
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sound arguments.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,287
2,774
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The same arguments between preterists and futurists over the correct interpretation of Babylon have been going on since the Jesuits conceived the eschatologies. Let me indulge in a critique of these eschatologies from an older view, the historicists’ view. Historicism rose with Protestantism; Martin Luther interpreted Daniel’s Little Horn as the papacy that rose amongst the Germanic kingdoms that supplanted Rome at its demise. To take the heat off the papacy, two Jesuit priests, Francisco Ribera (1537- 1591) and Luis de Alcazar (1554-c. 1613), concocted futurism and preterism. It’s Alcazar’s invention, preterism, that will be the focus of the thread. Still, futurism is guilty of many of the same misconceptions. This work will expose some of the misconceptions of preterism before it draws conclusions about the identity of Babylon.

To begin, the notion that God sets “up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” and that “shall not be left to other people” at Christ’s first advent is untenable in light of Daniel’s prophecies,

Daniel 2:
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces…
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel tells us Christ establishes his kingdom in the days of the feet or the ten toes of the image, or kings/horns, also conveyed in Daniel 7 and Revelation 17, which wasn’t at Christ’s first advent; Christ’s first advent was at the time of the legs of iron. Martin Luther’s interpretation of the little horn conforms to the evidence that it must have risen at the end of the Roman Empire amongst the kingdoms that supplanted it. The head, breast, belly, and legs represented consecutive kingdoms or empires; consequently, Daniel wasn’t talking about Christ’s return and filling the whole earth during the time of the Roman empire but the time of the kingdoms that supplanted Rome and did not embrace one another, but ruled simultaneously. Daniel 2:44 affirms Christ sets up his kingdom with kings that rule concurrently, just like the kings in Revelation 17. There can be no compromise on this issue if we want to interpret Babylon accurately.

....

Furthermore, the Romans were pagans and couldn’t fall from moral rectitude; that’s a covenantal issue, which is only applicable to the covenantal people of God. The first-century Jews don’t fit the prophecy in any substantive study, and neither do the Jews in our time; only apostate, liberal Protestantism fits the prophecy of the Mystery of Babylon, and from a Historicist’s hermeneutic, according to Daniel 2.

That sounds like you are... basing that all upon the Protestant Reformers ideas of the 15th-16th centuries, which failed.

The Daniel 2 "legs of iron" represented the old 'pagan'... Roman empire. The "ten horns" ("ten kings") or of Rev.17 that reign "one hour" with the "beast" instead applies to the very end of this world just prior to Christ's future return.

(And don't call me a Futurist just because I use the word 'future' for prophetic events that have still not yet come to pass, for that's a stupid accusation Preterists and Historicists like to do. Nor do I hold to a Pre-trib Rapture theory which is allied with man's seminary category of Futurism.

I believe in a Post-tribulational coming of Christ to gather His Church, because that is what is written in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-29, told us directly by Lord Jesus Himself.)



The Daniel 2:33 beast statue part of the "feet part of iron and part of clay" is what represents the final "beast" of Revelation for the literal 'end' of this world just prior to Christ's future return. That means the last generation on earth that will literally 'see'... Christ's future return.

Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:43-45 reiterate this point about the final beast kingdom in the last generation on earth that will see Christ's 2nd coming. And... it also reiterates that "stone" which will smite the final beast upon its feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with part clay, being about Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming to destroy... that final beast kingdom and instead setup His everlasting Kingdom on earth.

So by those Daniel 2 Scriptures I mentioned, proves that Rome is NOT the Revelation Babylon Harlot, nor is it Protestant Christianity. Simply because the system of the 'papacy' in past history WAS NOT THE LAST GENERATION THAT IS TO SEE CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN. It's just... common sense by actually reading and studying God's Word as written, and not allowing men's traditions to creep in.

The Reformer's ideas are based on men's traditions, failed applications of Bible prophecy. They thought Rome and the pope represented the final Antichrist of The Bible, so they thought Jesus would come in their generation. Well, Jesus did NOT return in their generation of the 15th-16th centuries, nor was the pope the Antichrist, and the pope today still is not the Antichrist.

(My ancestors of the 16th century came to the Americas by fleeing religious persecution by the Catholic Church. They were French Huguenots, the first French Protestants. But I still am not biased against the Catholic Church because of their false traditions. Many from both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church will be deceived by the coming false-Messiah at the end of this world.)

Christ's Book of Revelation is pointing directly to Jerusalem for the end as the Babylon Harlot. The last verse of Revelation 17 says the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", and Revelation 11:8 where God's future "two witnesses" will be killed points directly to Jerusalem for the end of this world as that "great city". So identifying the Revelation Babylon Harlot is actually easy IF... one sticks to the simplicity of Bible Scripture.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,287
2,774
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We’re entering a different subject than eschatology here. I don’t accept that the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die. I knew that’s what you were getting at. If they were with Christ as you assert, Paul was wrong in saying that “we” will meet Christ in the “air” when he returns, if the dead already met Christ when they died and went to heaven (1 Thess 4:17).

Well, you are in error with your thinking, because you reveal you actually do not... understand Apostle Paul in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Scripture.

In 1 Thess.4:13-16, Apostle Paul is describing the dead in Christ, the 'asleep' saints that he says Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. But where... will Jesus bring those asleep saints from when He descends to the earth on that day? From the heavenly dimension. Paul shows also there those asleep saints must be first resurrected. NONE of that part of 1 Thess.4 is about a 'rapture', (i.e, the "caught up" idea per the KJV).

Then... at that SAME time of Jesus descending to earth, He gathers the ALIVE saints still on earth up in the "air" to Himself with those 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him. Now that is... about the idea of the 'rapture' or the saints being "caught up".

So you obviously have missed those details of what Apostle Paul was teaching in those 1 Thess.4:13-17 verses. But don't feel bad, because those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory have missed that detail too, as their preachers just pull out the "caught up" event mostly when speaking of their idea of a 'rapture'. They rarely mention anything about the 'asleep' saints that are resurrected on that day which Jesus brings with Him... from Heaven.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,055
4,129
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just another example of the fallacious argument from silence.
You know a lot about that.

The point is that all the passages are about Christ’s return and his rewarding the overcomers with rule, power and authority, which destroys the amill and post dogma about Christ's return to end such power.
You show your ignorance with every comment you make. He ends such power from His enemies when He returns and takes vengeance on them. Misrepresenting Amill does not help your case at all.

The eternal state commences when rule, power, and authority come to an end according to 1 Corinthians 15.
When ungodly rule, power and authority come to an end. God's rule, power and authority will never end.

And David’s throne was on earth, not in heaven.
Your carnal way of thinking is the reason you have no understanding. To think that Jesus would ever rule from an earthly throne is an insult to who He is. He has all power in heaven AND earth (Matthew 28:18).

Matthew 28:18 affirms Christ was given all authority from the foundations of the world, long before he ascended; that’s his destiny.
No, He was given that after His resurrection. He was not saying He was given it from the foundations of the world. As the God Man, He was given it after His resurrection. You are trying to twist scripture to fit your doctrine once again, but those with discernment will not be fooled by your deceptive and reckless treatment of scripture.

The point being, the prophecies of Christ EXERCISING the rule, power and authority of HIS THRONE, DAVID’S THRONE, is revealed in the passages of Matthew 25:31, 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12, which demolishes post and amill.
Where is David's throne mentioned in those passages? Nowhere. But, it is mentioned in Acts 2:29-36 where Peter said Jesus was RAISED UP to David's throne by way of being RAISED UP from the dead. Jesus does not rule over an earthly kingdom, He rules over a spiritual kingdom that did not come with observation and is not of the world. The kingdom has always been a spiritual one, but you are too carnal to understand that.


We find clarification for Acts 2:30-31 in Revelation and Matthew,
We don't need clarification for what Peter explicitly stated. You apparently think that Peter didn't know what he was talking about, but he did.

Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. ESV

Revelation 3
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Where do these mention David's throne? Nowhere. You are trying to twist scripture to fit your view. None of these thrones are literal, by the way. These are talking about the authority Jesus has with the Father and with all judgment being given to Him by the Father (John 5:22). None of that has anything to do with Him being on David's throne.

The fulfillment that the apostles scattered when they arrested Christ doesn’t overcome that the sheep were ordained to be scattered all over the world in a greater sense, which destroys the dogmas of post and amill because Christ’s kingdom was prophesied as one in which he returns to gather the sheep. Do your homework and actually look up the passages I cited from the OT that affirms my argument and destroys your dogma. You probably won’t but that’s your problem, not mine.
Your problem is not accepting how Jesus interpreted that prophecy. And it's a major problem.

What I find disgusting is the idea we’re in the kingdom of Christ, this evil disgusting world that is without justice, when the prophecies about Christ’s kingdom are of one that is secure and just. :csm
I find this comment to be disgusting because it is foolish and blatantly contradicts scripture.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

You apparently are disgusted with the idea that we have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of Christ even though scriptures says that we have been. For someone to be disgusted with that is disgusting.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,055
4,129
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That sounds like you are... basing that all upon the Protestant Reformers ideas of the 15th-16th centuries, which failed.

The Daniel 2 "legs of iron" represented the old 'pagan'... Roman empire. The "ten horns" ("ten kings") or of Rev.17 that reign "one hour" with the "beast" instead applies to the very end of this world just prior to Christ's future return.

(And don't call me a Futurist just because I use the word 'future' for prophetic events that have still not yet come to pass, for that's a stupid accusation Preterists and Historicists like to do. Nor do I hold to a Pre-trib Rapture theory which is allied with man's seminary category of Futurism.

I believe in a Post-tribulational coming of Christ to gather His Church, because that is what is written in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-29, told us directly by Lord Jesus Himself.)



The Daniel 2:33 beast statue part of the "feet part of iron and part of clay" is what represents the final "beast" of Revelation for the literal 'end' of this world just prior to Christ's future return. That means the last generation on earth that will literally 'see'... Christ's future return.

Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:43-45 reiterate this point about the final beast kingdom in the last generation on earth that will see Christ's 2nd coming. And... it also reiterates that "stone" which will smite the final beast upon its feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with part clay, being about Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming to destroy... that final beast kingdom and instead setup His everlasting Kingdom on earth.

So by those Daniel 2 Scriptures I mentioned, proves that Rome is NOT the Revelation Babylon Harlot, nor is it Protestant Christianity. Simply because the system of the 'papacy' in past history WAS NOT THE LAST GENERATION THAT IS TO SEE CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN. It's just... common sense by actually reading and studying God's Word as written, and not allowing men's traditions to creep in.

The Reformer's ideas are based on men's traditions, failed applications of Bible prophecy. They thought Rome and the pope represented the final Antichrist of The Bible, so they thought Jesus would come in their generation. Well, Jesus did NOT return in their generation of the 15th-16th centuries, nor was the pope the Antichrist, and the pope today still is not the Antichrist.

(My ancestors of the 16th century came to the Americas by fleeing religious persecution by the Catholic Church. They were French Huguenots, the first French Protestants. But I still am not biased against the Catholic Church because of their false traditions. Many from both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church will be deceived by the coming false-Messiah at the end of this world.)

Christ's Book of Revelation is pointing directly to Jerusalem for the end as the Babylon Harlot. The last verse of Revelation 17 says the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", and Revelation 11:8 where God's future "two witnesses" will be killed points directly to Jerusalem for the end of this world as that "great city". So identifying the Revelation Babylon Harlot is actually easy IF... one sticks to the simplicity of Bible Scripture.
LOL! Look at these Post-trib Premills arguing with each other! Isn't that hilarious, Davy?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,055
4,129
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Amen. While God is in ultimate control, God is allowing saran to rule this world and the world is lawless and wicked while the rule of the rod of iron *the Millennium) will be lawful, a world literally ruled by Christ and his saints. It won't be the same exact world as it was before that rule as Amill presents their broken, awful, non-enforced "rule". A rule in-name-only, or a "nerf" rule.
This thread is very disturbing and makes me wonder what cult has infiltrated it. You are saying "Amen" to someone saying he is disgusted with the idea that we're in the kingdom of Christ. So, does what Paul said here disgust you? Is the idea of being delivered from the power of darkness disgusting to you, too?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Is Jesus your King? If you're disgusted with the idea that we're in the kingdom of Christ now, then I guess you don't believe Jesus is your King? Now, THAT is disgusting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scott Downey

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,055
4,129
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We’re entering a different subject than eschatology here. I don’t accept that the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die. I knew that’s what you were getting at. If they were with Christ as you assert, Paul was wrong in saying that “we” will meet Christ in the “air” when he returns, if the dead already met Christ when they died and went to heaven (1 Thess 4:17). There are numerous problems with the idea we go to heaven when we die, but this is not the place. Start a thread in an appropriate place and let me know if you want to debate the issue.

And your assertion still doesn't hold water because the overcomers are promised to sit at "Christ's throne," not the Father's.
Actually, this does relate to eschatology as well. No wonder you can't accept Amillennialism. You believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep, so you can't possibly believe in Amillennialism as long as that is the case since it teaches that the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Christ in heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scott Downey

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,055
4,129
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Colossians 1
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sound arguments.
These people are unbelievable. What cult are they in? Denying that we're in the kingdom of Christ? That's insane. That implies that they don't believe Jesus is their King! Who are these people? This is just insane and very disturbing to see these cult members denying Christ's Kingship.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
6,245
2,618
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
These people are unbelievable. What cult are they in? Denying that we're in the kingdom of Christ? That's insane. That implies that they don't believe Jesus is their King! Who are these people? This is just insane and very disturbing to see these cult members denying Christ's Kingship.
Couldn't agree more, brother. And cult it is, one of the most abhorrent examples on this forum.
 

Jerry Huerta

New Member
Feb 24, 2025
74
11
8
Tucson
historicist.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Colossians 1
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sound arguments.
Sound argument for Premillennialism.
 

Jerry Huerta

New Member
Feb 24, 2025
74
11
8
Tucson
historicist.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That sounds like you are... basing that all upon the Protestant Reformers ideas of the 15th-16th centuries, which failed.

The Daniel 2 "legs of iron" represented the old 'pagan'... Roman empire. The "ten horns" ("ten kings") or of Rev.17 that reign "one hour" with the "beast" instead applies to the very end of this world just prior to Christ's future return.

(And don't call me a Futurist just because I use the word 'future' for prophetic events that have still not yet come to pass, for that's a stupid accusation Preterists and Historicists like to do. Nor do I hold to a Pre-trib Rapture theory which is allied with man's seminary category of Futurism.

I believe in a Post-tribulational coming of Christ to gather His Church, because that is what is written in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-29, told us directly by Lord Jesus Himself.)



The Daniel 2:33 beast statue part of the "feet part of iron and part of clay" is what represents the final "beast" of Revelation for the literal 'end' of this world just prior to Christ's future return. That means the last generation on earth that will literally 'see'... Christ's future return.

Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:43-45 reiterate this point about the final beast kingdom in the last generation on earth that will see Christ's 2nd coming. And... it also reiterates that "stone" which will smite the final beast upon its feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with part clay, being about Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming to destroy... that final beast kingdom and instead setup His everlasting Kingdom on earth.

So by those Daniel 2 Scriptures I mentioned, proves that Rome is NOT the Revelation Babylon Harlot, nor is it Protestant Christianity. Simply because the system of the 'papacy' in past history WAS NOT THE LAST GENERATION THAT IS TO SEE CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN. It's just... common sense by actually reading and studying God's Word as written, and not allowing men's traditions to creep in.

The Reformer's ideas are based on men's traditions, failed applications of Bible prophecy. They thought Rome and the pope represented the final Antichrist of The Bible, so they thought Jesus would come in their generation. Well, Jesus did NOT return in their generation of the 15th-16th centuries, nor was the pope the Antichrist, and the pope today still is not the Antichrist.

(My ancestors of the 16th century came to the Americas by fleeing religious persecution by the Catholic Church. They were French Huguenots, the first French Protestants. But I still am not biased against the Catholic Church because of their false traditions. Many from both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church will be deceived by the coming false-Messiah at the end of this world.)

Christ's Book of Revelation is pointing directly to Jerusalem for the end as the Babylon Harlot. The last verse of Revelation 17 says the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", and Revelation 11:8 where God's future "two witnesses" will be killed points directly to Jerusalem for the end of this world as that "great city". So identifying the Revelation Babylon Harlot is actually easy IF... one sticks to the simplicity of Bible Scripture.
I value Marin Luther’s scholarship over your futurist’s dogma anytime. Those who pursue knowledge recognize the futurist dogma is either from Darby or the Jesuits.

It hardly dawns on you that the ten horn is Revelation 17 are absent their crowns, which were present in Chapter 13,

Revelation 13:
1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. ESV

The implication is that the authority of the horns develops from the power of the beast that rises from the sea, which is the same beast in revelation 17 that “was” and “is not” during the time the sixth king “is,”

Revelation 17
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;
10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

Christ, through John, relates five of the kings are fallen. In other words, it can be said of any one of them that it “was” and “is not,” just like the scarlet beast, which reveals the beast that rises from the abyss is one of the fallen five. Wisdom reveals the five fallen kings are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the papacy from John’s future perspective. John was taken to the future to witness the judgment of the harlot, which means the “sixth” king that “is,” is not the Roman Empire. Even futurists acknowledge the judgment of Babylon is in our day, not John’s. Yet, the scarlet beast is the only one that “is to come” according to John,

Revelation 17
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Several truths are garnered from wisdom; the scarlet beast represents the wounded beast from the sea, during the reign of the sixth king, the beast that rises from the earth. The seventh king is the image, that only reigns a short while. And in the beast’s wounded stage the ten horns can’t do the biding of the beast again until it rises from the abyss, hence the absence of the crowns on the ten horns in Chapter 17.

The point being is the ten horns lost their power in the narration and regain it when Christ returns, which matches the Historicists account of history. For 1260 years the European kings did the biding of the papacy but that ended with the rise of Protestantism. The papacy received it deadly wound with the rise of Protestantism but is still vying to regain that power. It has more of a chance in regaining that power than does any futurist’s dogma coming true.

As for Babylon, the liberal Protestants held intercourse with the kings of the earth to break the power of the papacy and the Church’s influence in the public square, which allowed the merchants of the earth to gain their riches,

Revelation 18
3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."
 
Last edited:

Jerry Huerta

New Member
Feb 24, 2025
74
11
8
Tucson
historicist.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, you are in error with your thinking, because you reveal you actually do not... understand Apostle Paul in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Scripture.

In 1 Thess.4:13-16, Apostle Paul is describing the dead in Christ, the 'asleep' saints that he says Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. But where... will Jesus bring those asleep saints from when He descends to the earth on that day? From the heavenly dimension. Paul shows also there those asleep saints must be first resurrected. NONE of that part of 1 Thess.4 is about a 'rapture', (i.e, the "caught up" idea per the KJV).

Then... at that SAME time of Jesus descending to earth, He gathers the ALIVE saints still on earth up in the "air" to Himself with those 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him. Now that is... about the idea of the 'rapture' or the saints being "caught up".

So you obviously have missed those details of what Apostle Paul was teaching in those 1 Thess.4:13-17 verses. But don't feel bad, because those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory have missed that detail too, as their preachers just pull out the "caught up" event mostly when speaking of their idea of a 'rapture'. They rarely mention anything about the 'asleep' saints that are resurrected on that day which Jesus brings with Him... from Heaven.
Christ brings the saints back to earth from the air, when he returns, not from “heavenly dimension.” You’re making that up. The notion that the saints go to heaven when they die is a pagan doctrine that entered the Church early on. The apostles held the orthodox view that the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastics 9:5-6).

The context states, “the dead in Christ will rise first.” You need to take a course on direction. The dead rise, not come down from paradise.
 

Jerry Huerta

New Member
Feb 24, 2025
74
11
8
Tucson
historicist.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
These people are unbelievable. What cult are they in? Denying that we're in the kingdom of Christ? That's insane. That implies that they don't believe Jesus is their King! Who are these people? This is just insane and very disturbing to see these cult members denying Christ's Kingship.
Like ewq1938 said, you guys have a nerf ruling Christ. :csm
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,055
4,129
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Like ewq1938 said, you guys have a nerf ruling Christ. :csm
Weak response. He is certainly not someone who can be taken seriously at all. You don't accept what Paul taught which is that God delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Colossians 1:12-13). It's sad that you deny that He is the King right now. What cult are you part of which denies His Kingship? Many Premills know enough to not deny that He reigns now spiritually, so this must be a teaching of some cult that you are following. Premill itself does not teach that He doesn't reign in any way, shape or form now as you believe.

You don't even accept what Jesus Himself said which is that He has all power and authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). You try to turn Him into a dictator, but He doesn't rule that way. That is how the Pharisees thought the Messiah should rule as well, so you have that in common with them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amigo de christo

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,055
4,129
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christ brings the saints back to earth from the air, when he returns, not from “heavenly dimension.” You’re making that up. The notion that the saints go to heaven when they die is a pagan doctrine that entered the Church early on. The apostles held the orthodox view that the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastics 9:5-6).

The context states, “the dead in Christ will rise first.” You need to take a course on direction. The dead rise, not come down from paradise.
No, soul sleep is the pagan doctrine. Does it look like the souls John saw were sleeping? You have no discernment.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

How about Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration? Were they sleeping and talking at the same time?