Babylon

[Davy]

Why are you being inconsistent with how you interpret what a prophetic beast represents? Your increased font size and constant use of all caps make you come across as if you are unhinged. Maybe you need to take an anger management class.

Your words place you pretty much in the same boat of Biblical illiteracy as Jerry. There is NO inconsistency on my part, you just made that up which shows you are just another that has come here that has no problem telling LIES. Liars aren't going to get into the Kingdom of God, didn't you know (1 Timothy 1; 1 Cor.6).

Thanks for loving... my use of CAPITALS and BOLDNESS. And don't forget my CAPITAL BOLDNESS UNDERLINES!

He might be, but you are the one acting like one.

According to Apostle Paul, Christ has given His servants a "sound mind" (2 Timothy 1). I've noticed here many that claim... to be a Christian, yet do not exercise a "sound mind" with following God's Word as written. Those who cannot follow God's Word 'as written'... reveal they are under influence of the devil instead.

 

[Davy]

I'm talking to Jerry, buddy. Stay out of it. If you don't agree with him about this, then good for you. I'm addressing what he was saying and asking him what he believes. Clearly, you two don't agree on everything.

You cannot command me on anything, especially after those like yourself here who are KNOWN for taking over Threads with unrelated arguments just to try and STOP the real discussion of the Thread's Topic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your words place you pretty much in the same boat of Biblical illiteracy as Jerry. There is NO inconsistency on my part, you just made that up which shows you are just another that has come here that has no problem telling LIES. Liars aren't going to get into the Kingdom of God, didn't you know (1 Timothy 1; 1 Cor.6).

Thanks for loving... my use of CAPITALS and BOLDNESS. And don't forget my CAPITAL BOLDNESS UNDERLINES!

So, you can't even address why you are deciding to interpret a prophetic beast one way in one passage and a different way in another passage? That type of inconsistency is evidence to show that you just try to make scripture say whatever you want it to say. You have to resort to petty insults instead of addressing that? Is that all you have to offer?

According to Apostle Paul, Christ has given His servants a "sound mind" (2 Timothy 1). I've noticed here many that claim... to be a Christian, yet do not exercise a "sound mind" with following God's Word as written. Those who cannot follow God's Word 'as written'... reveal they are under influence of the devil instead.

Look in the mirror. You are describing yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You cannot command me on anything, especially after those like yourself here who are KNOWN for taking over Threads with unrelated arguments just to try and STOP the real discussion of the Thread's Topic.

I will decide what is related or not and I can talk to him and address his nonsense all I want just as you address his comments that you believe are nonsense as well.

 

[Davy]

So, you can't even address why you are deciding to interpret a prophetic beast one way in one passage and a different way in another passage? That type of inconsistency is evidence to show that you just try to make scripture say whatever you want it to say. You have to resort to petty insults instead of addressing that? Is that all you have to offer?


Look in the mirror. You are describing yourself.

I know, it's pretty amazing that a Christian forum would allow Orthodox unbelieving Jews to come here and twist New Testament doctrine beyond recognition. Yet they are here, and it is easy to see who they are too, easier than you'd think. All one need do is watch how they keep pushing doctrines and traditions of men instead of staying with God's Word as written.

 

[Davy]

I will decide what is related or not and I can talk to him and address his nonsense all I want just as you address his comments that you believe are nonsense as well.

Do you remember what a hypocrite is?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you remember what a hypocrite is?

Yes, it's a person like you who criticizes others for doing the very thing he does.

 

[covenantee]

I know, it's pretty amazing that a Christian forum would allow Orthodox unbelieving Jews to come here and twist New Testament doctrine beyond recognition. Yet they are here, and it is easy to see who they are too, easier than you'd think. All one need do is watch how they keep pushing doctrines and traditions of men instead of staying with God's Word as written.

Anyone who believes in a future millennium of animal sacrifices, believes what "Orthodox unbelieving Jews" believe.

Is that whom you're referring to?

Yes, it's easy to see who they are.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Anyone who believes in a future millennium of animal sacrifices, believes what "Orthodox unbelieving Jews" believe.

Is that whom you're referring to?

Yes, it's easy to see who they are.

Yes, and that's what he believes and it's easy to see he is one of them. He was replying to me, but I am certainly not an Orthodox unbelieving Jew.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

More private faux "historicism". No recognized Reformation historicist ever subscribed to such futurized fantasy and fallacy.

FYI Isaiah and Zechariah are in the OT.

Reformation historicist John Calvin:

Isaiah 11:4
Here we must again call to remembrance what is the nature of Christ's kingdom. As he does not wear a golden crown or employ earthly armor, so he does not rule over the world by the power of arms, or gain authority by gaudy and ostentatious display, or constrain his people by terror and dread; but the doctrine of the gospel is his royal banner, which assembles believers under his dominion. Wherever, therefore, the doctrine of the Gospel is preached in purity, there we are certain that Christ reigns; and where it is rejected, his government is also set aside.

Reformation historicist Adam Clarke:

Isaiah 9:7
"This is an illustrious prophecy of the incarnation of Christ, with an enumeration of those characters in which he stands most nearly related to mankind as their Savior; and of others by which his infinite majesty and Godhead are shown. He shall appear as a child, born of a woman, born as a Jew, under the law, but not in the way of ordinary generation. He is a Son given - the human nature, in which the fullness of the Godhead was to dwell, being produced by the creative energy of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin. See Matthew 1:20, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 1:23, Matthew 1:25, and Luke 1:35, and Isaiah 7:14, and the notes on those passages. As being God manifested in the flesh, he was wonderful in his conception, birth, preaching, miracles, sufferings, death, resurrection, and ascension; wonderful in his person, and wonderful in his working. He is the Counsellor that expounds the law; shows its origin, nature, and claims; instructs, pleads for the guilty; and ever appears in the presence of God for men. He is the mighty God; God essentially and efficiently prevailing against his enemies, and destroying ours. He is the Father of eternity; the Origin of all being, and the Cause of the existence, and particularly the Father, of the spirits of all flesh. The Prince of peace - not only the Author of peace, and the Dispenser of peace, but also he that rules by peace, whose rule tends always to perfection, and produces prosperity. Of the increase of his government - this Prince has a government, for he has all power both in heaven and in earth: and his government increases, and is daily more and more extended, and will continue till all things are put under his feet. His kingdom is ordered - every act of government regulated according to wisdom and goodness; is established so securely as not to be overthrown; and administered in judgment and justice, so as to manifest his wisdom, righteousness, goodness, and truth. Reader, such is that Jesus who came into the world to save sinners! Trust in Him!"

Obviously, I’m more well read on the subject; Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary emphasized judgment by THE ROD,

breath of … lips—his judicial decisions (Isa 30:28; Job 15:30; Re 19:20; 20:9-12). He as the Word of God (Re 19:13-15) comes to strike that blow which shall decide His claim to the kingdom, previously usurped by Satan, and "the beast" to whom Satan delegates his power. It will be a day of judgment to the Gentile dispensation, as the first coming was to the Jews. Compare a type of the "rod" (Nu 17:2-10). [1]​

A number of Premillennialist commentators arise from the Reformation.

But I wouldn’t brand you as a private faux preterist; you’re a typical one.

False. Justin Martyr acknowledged amil at least two hundred years before the initial appearance of institutionalized apostasizing Romanism.

Your faux historicist history is as distorted as your scripture.

Apostatizing Rome, the seat of the Dragon, also institutionalized amill and the papacy.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Where in the world did you learn that? That's not what that "one hour" of Rev.17:12 verse means. Look at the verse again. It says those "ten kings" receive no kingdom until they receive power "one hour" with the "beast". Per Revelation 13:4-8 the "dragon" (the "another beast") is given to have power over all nations and peoples for 42 months. So that "one hour" is being given as a 'symbol' for that 42 month reign time of the "beast" king. And that is when those "ten kings" come to power with the "beast", and reign with the "beast."

Thus it means those "ten kings" reign CONCURRENTLY with the "beast", not AFTER the "beast" king's reign comes to an end.




Now what makes you think Rev.13 & 17 are in chronological order, when the Rev.17 chapter actually DEFINES events written in Rev.13??? Do you even know what the word 'chronological' means?? It means an 'order of events, one after the other'. The Babylon Harlot of Revelation 17 is about the same 'time' of that 1st beast of Rev.13:1 and 2nd beast of Rev.13:11. They are CONCURRENT events that happen at the same time.

The difference with Revelation 17 is that it also contains verses that jump back to the past with Lucifer's original fall, and then forward again. And with the 8 kings description, it is an even 'wider' time span jump, from the first beast kingdom manifested during this present world back in history to the last beast king (7th) of this present world, and then with the final 8th beast king in the world to come per Rev.20:7-9. God's Word at times does huge timeline jumps between past-present-future, and we are expected to study in order to 'rightly divide' those timeline jumps in Scripture (2 Timothy 2:15).

Tell us, who are the five fallen kings? Are they individuals like the antichrist? And remember THE SCARLET BEAST WAS AND IS NOT, JUST LIKE ALL THE OHER FOUR KINGS, MAKING THE SCARLET BEAST ONE OF THE FALLEN FIVE TO RISE AS THE EIGHTH,

Revelation 17
11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. EVS

The Historicists account aligns with history and Daniel, the futurists does not. The five fallen kings were Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the Ecclesiocracy held by the Papacy, and wounded by Protestantism. This interpretation aligns perfectly with Daniel and history, vindicating Historicism.

That’s what separates us; Historicists study history, futurists have their heads in guessing the future.

Revelation builds on Daniel. The little horn is the sea beast and Revelation 13 reveals the little horn is wounded and succeeded by two other powers (the beast from the earth and the image), which is the exact what we find in Revelation 17. The SCARLET BEAST “WAS, AND IS NOT” (WONDED) AND THERE ARE TWO OTHER POWERS BEFORE IT RISES.

Obviously, Revelation 13 and 17 are chronological, the ten kings gain their crowns with the rise of the beast and lose them when the beast suffers its deadly wound, depicted in Revelation 17. They take up their crowns again with the rise of the beast, who suffers the deadly wound.

Again, HISTORICISM ALIGNS PERFECTLY WITH HISTORY AND DANIEL.

Uh.... what??

You mean you cannot even tell the difference between the word "first" and the word "another"??

Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV

How many beasts is that about above?? TWO... not one!

The 1st beast is described in Rev.13:1-2 and is about a KINGDOM BEAST. That's why... it says it has "ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns"!

The 2nd beast is mentioned as "the another beast", which means a SECOND BEAST, and is a PERSON, AN ENTITY, the beast KING described in Revelation 17!

That follows the pattern which Apostle John showed for the idea of antichrist in 1 John 2:18, because John mentioned a SINGULAR "antichrist" shall come. And you should try reading some of the writings of the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS about that singular Antichrist, for I'm agreeing with them!




You are a whacko nut job! Your thoughts are so mixed up, it reminds me of dope heads I met in the military during Vietnam.

You have to agree, Revelation 17:2 tells us Babylon as already fornicated with the kings of the earth at the time the eighth king WAS, AND IS NOT, and the sixth king IS.

As stated above, Revelation 13 affirms it’s the sea beast that is wounded, it has a WAS, AND IS NOT state, exactly what Revelation 17 reveals.

One doesn’t have to make up foolish fables like preterism and futurism to know Revelation 13 and 17 are in chronological order.

Futurism has little appreciation for history and the OT.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Do you deny that we are in Christ's kingdom right now which would mean you also deny that you have been delivered from the power of darkness?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Colossians 1:12 has to be taken with Romans 13, that says we are subject to the powers that be, which does not allow for complete deliverance until Christ returns to sit on his throne (Matthew 25:31, 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12).

That is a lie. I absolutely am not doing that.

You said the symbol of soul sleep was pagan, I merely held that to be a lie because of John 11:11.

LOL. That is talking about His body being asleep/dead, not his soul and spirit. Do you deny that humans have a body, soul and spirit?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Since we all sin, our souls die and must wait for the judgment when Christ returns,

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Colossians 1:12 has to be taken with Romans 13, that says we are subject to the powers that be, which does not allow for complete deliverance until Christ returns to sit on his throne (Matthew 25:31, 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12).

Can you just answer the question? Are we in Christ's kingdom right now? His kingdom that did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36) and "is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17)?

Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Since we all sin, our souls die and must wait for the judgment when Christ returns,

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Nonsense. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 is referring to our bodies being resurrected. The word "soul" can refer to a whole person or human being including body, soul and spirit or to the soul of a person. Our soul and spirit do not die when our body dies.

Do the souls of dead martyrs that John referred to in the following passage seem like they are dead?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[covenantee]

Obviously, I’m more well read on the subject; Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary emphasized judgment by THE ROD,

Obviously you read nonsense.

A number of Premillennialist commentators arise from the Reformation.

Define "arise from" with an example.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Obviously you read nonsense.

Obviously, I feel the same way about what you read.

Define "arise from" with an example.

Historicism arose with the Reformation as did the restoration of Premillennialism, which has supplanted amill.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Can you just answer the question? Are we in Christ's kingdom right now? His kingdom that did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36) and "is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17)?

Why can't you acknowledge we are fully delivered from the power of darkness, and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son when he returns (Matthew 25:31, 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12).

Nonsense. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 is referring to our bodies being resurrected. The word "soul" can refer to a whole person or human being including body, soul and spirit or to the soul of a person. Our soul and spirit do not die when our body dies.

Do the souls of dead martyrs that John referred to in the following passage seem like they are dead?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

How silly, what would the souls of the dead be doing under the altar in heaven? It’s cryptic language to inform the reader there is a final judgment, not that we go to heaven. As cited previously, the souls that sins die according to scripture, not amill dogma (Ezekiel 18:4).

 

[covenantee]

Historicism arose with the Reformation as did the restoration of Premillennialism, which has supplanted amill.

Evasion.

Name, date, verbatim quote of any recognized Reformation premil during the Reformation, which ended circa 1648.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why can't you acknowledge we are fully delivered from the power of darkness, and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son when he returns (Matthew 25:31, 16:27, 19:28, 24:46-47, Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, 11:18, 22:12).

Why do you have so much trouble answering simple questions? I'm not talking about that, I'm asking you if you believe that we are in Christ's kingdom now that did not come with observation, is not of this world and "is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"? Yes or no?

How silly, what would the souls of the dead be doing under the altar in heaven? It’s cryptic language to inform the reader there is a final judgment, not that we go to heaven. As cited previously, the souls that sins die according to scripture, not amill dogma (Ezekiel 18:4).

The word soul can refer to the whole person or a part of the person. We have a soul, spirit and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). You are terribly deceived just like the rest who believe in the doctrine of soul sleep.

Mark 13:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Tel me, Jerry, is God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? He is, of course, right? He is also the God of the living. So, He can only be their God if they are alive since He is not the God of the dead. Believing in soul sleep means that you do not believe that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ye therefore do greatly err.

Mark 9:1 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Tell me, if the dead are sleeping, as you believe, does that mean Elijah and Moses were just talking to Jesus in their sleep at His transfiguration? LOL.

 

[covenantee]

Apostatizing Rome, the seat of the Dragon, also institutionalized amill and the papacy.

Did the institutionalization of amil somehow transform it from truth into apostate untruth?

Apostasizing Rome believed in the truth of the existence of God.
Therefore, they institutionalized that truth.
Therefore, their institutionalization of that truth transformed it into apostate untruth.

Such is your cultic illogic.

 

[Davy]

Tell us, who are the five fallen kings? Are they individuals like the antichrist? And remember THE SCARLET BEAST WAS AND IS NOT, JUST LIKE ALL THE OHER FOUR KINGS, MAKING THE SCARLET BEAST ONE OF THE FALLEN FIVE TO RISE AS THE EIGHTH,

Because Apostle John compared the 6th beast king as the one that was ruling in his day, that being the Roman emperor Domitian, then that means the previous 5 beast kings were those of previous world empires, most likely Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, Egypt, Assyria (not necessarily in that order). And John does not specifically say there in Rev.17:10. The 6th king in John's day still serves as the anchor for that idea in that particular verse.

Rev 17:10
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
KJV

To understand about "the other" beast king John mentions, a 7th beast king, got to go back up to previous 8th verse... and then to the Rev.17:11 verse...

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

Rev 17:11
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
KJV

Per Revelation 11:7, that beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem at the end of this world during the time of "great tribulation" just prior to Lord Jesus' coming on the 7th Trumpet. That's about Satan himself as that 7th beast king. That idea that he "was", and "is not", and "shall ascend..." is a pointer to Satan, because he was once exalted in God's Garden before he fell, and thus "was", and God ended Satan's rebellion and Satan "is not", meaning no longer exalted, and yet Satan "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" but later at the very end after Christ's future 1,000 years reign Satan will go into "perdition" into the "lake of fire". Therefore, there's your FINAL ANTICHRIST for the end of this PRESENT WORLD, Satan himself disguised as an angel of light, as he is coming to earth in our earthly dimension to work great signs, wonders, and miracles that will deceive the whole world (except Christ's elect).

That phrase "and is of the seven" means Satan was behind the working of all of those 7 beast kings. But with "even he is the eighth" is showing you that will be about Satan in that final 8th beast king role also, which will occur after Christ's future 1,000 years reign per the Rev.20:7-9 Scripture. Satan will be loosed then one final time to go deceive the nations into going up against the "camp of the saints" on earth, which will be that 8th beast king role he will play.

Some might be thinking, well since the previous 5 beast kings, and the 6th one in Apostle John's day, were all flesh born kings, then the 7th and 8th beast kings must also be flesh born men. Not so simply because those Rev.17 verses gave us a very strong clue as to who this next 7th beast king will be, because of the mention of his ascending from the bottomless pit and eventually goes into perdition ("lake of fire"). That's about Satan who is the 'king' and angel over the bottomless pit per Rev.9.

Another clue is that as of today, ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the future "lake of fire". No flesh born man has been judged to perish yet today. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged to perish yet, whom Lord Jesus called a "son of perdition". That Judgment won't happen until after Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Revelation 20. That means that idea about the beast king that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition can ONLY apply to Satan himself, and not some flesh pope, etc.