Are only 144,000 saved? (Rev 14:1)

[face2face]

@Keiw taking the number literally does your organisation also take this literal as well?

Rev 14:4 These (144,000) are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.

So I assume you and Jane are virgins, and if not, are you immediately out of the race, so to speak?

I know, I am relentless when it comes to reading contextually!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@everyone

What happens when we continue to test the text of Revelation 14 is the JW is forced to either admit they are forcing a literal number on a highly symbolic chapter, or they run for other obscure text, which is what Keiw does regularly.

Rev 14:4 is simply referring to those who remain faithful to Christ!

It's 2 Cor. 11:2 isn't it?

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Of course, the JW cannot twist this above verse, because the body is the bride, and the bride is espoused to one husband, purified in his blood and made clean from all sin.

Yes Keiw - Chaste in faith... not in body!

This is sound Bible teaching - careful reading - understanding the context of Rev 14:1 and applying the symbol to its correct interpretation.

I wonder if the rest of us can say Amen.

 

[face2face]

And continuing with this ridiculous JW notion which @Aunty Jane & @Keiw present - if all believers are presented as Paul teaches

"For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ"

What separates the 144,000 with the rest who are also "made" a pure virgin in Christ?

 

[face2face]

So lets test this then - Revelation 14:4 with 2 Corinthians 11:2

Returning to Revelation 14 we read

For "These (144,000) are they which follow the Lamb"

So firstly, is this representative of "all" who are found to be "in" Christ at his coming?

Those who truly know Christ follow him because he showed complete dedication to God.

In the context of Revelation 14 They (believers) see him as the Lamb: quiet, submissive, offering himself in sacrifice to God; but
also powerful to conquer the world. Read 1 Peter 2:21-25 also speaking of the entire bride of Christ!

The follow "wherever he goes!" yes even the crucifixion of self as per Gal. 5:24

And those who belong to Christ Jesus (symbolic 144,000) have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

It's all about careful reading of the text.

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw taking the number literally does your organisation also take this literal as well?

Rev 14:4 These (144,000) are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.

So I assume you and Jane are virgins, and if not, are you immediately out of the race, so to speak?

I know, I am relentless when it comes to reading contextually!

F2F

Virgins is symbolism--Peter is one of the little flock, he was married, thus not a virgin. Virgins to false religion is the symbolism.

 

[Keiw]

And continuing with this ridiculous JW notion which @Aunty Jane & @Keiw present - if all believers are presented as Paul teaches

"For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ"

What separates the 144,000 with the rest who are also "made" a pure virgin in Christ?

The 144,000 have the heaven hope--The great crowd of other sheep not of that fold are promised earth.

 

[face2face]

Virgins is symbolism--Peter is one of the little flock, he was married, thus not a virgin. Virgins to false religion is the symbolism.

Right, so you are able to pick a choose what is literal and what is symbol?
It just happens that the number 144,000 is the only literal thing in that chapter.
Righteo.

 

[face2face]

The 144,000 have the heaven hope--The great crowd of other sheep not of that fold are promised earth.

None of which is written in Rev 14. It's a fabrication you have adopted as a false heavenly hope, but is not.

 

[face2face]

Virgins is symbolism--Peter is one of the little flock, he was married, thus not a virgin. Virgins to false religion is the symbolism.

That's a big admission on your part Keiw - you know that right?
What you must believe is verse 4 is speaking to all believers, not an elite group! As per 2 Corinthians 11:2.
So 144,000 symbolic of the 12 Gentiles x 12 Israelitish hope = innumerable number of believers made pure in Christ.

To hold a belief like yours, you would need an odd number - an obscure number which lacks a discernible meaning, unlike 12 x 12 which is so specific my youth group class could provide you a meaning in a heatbeat.

Here is a question.

If you were going to use a whole number to represent the redeemed, do you think 144,000 is a good example?

I mean - how can you put a number to this "a great multitude which no man could number' Rev 7:4

Impossible right?

So, to demonstrate the significance of a number, 12x12 in the thousands makes a lot of sense? It complete, its a large number significant of many peoples right?

I think you get this, especially given the symbolism you have already admitted to in verse 4.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Keiw & @Aunty Jane if you did arrive at 144,000 being highly symbolic of the total number of the redeemed which the chapter is clearly speaking of - what other verses in Scripture would speak of a defined number of elite who go to Heaven to rule with Christ from there?
I guess you are looking for a Gospel account that teaches Christ and this elite group are going to Heaven to manage earthly affairs. You would also need a story that taught the throne of David is somehow taken to Heaven when its prophetic fulfillment is on earth.
Tough ask!

 

[face2face]

So lets continue then with Revelation 14:4

"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb"

The context is still the 144,000 who are given this title as firstfruits. No doubt you have heard that before somewhere?

Yep James 1:18! - He chose to give us (the redeemed) birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

The US and WE are represented in Revelation 14:1 to be the 144,000 who are the firstfruits of all created.

The privileges of the firstborn become theirs i.e a double portion of inheritance, the priesthood, and authority etc etc.

So we are not finding anything in Rev 14 that suggests an elite group identifiable outside of those saved in Christ.

 

[Keiw]

Right, so you are able to pick a choose what is literal and what is symbol?
It just happens that the number 144,000 is the only literal thing in that chapter.
Righteo.

I didnt pick and choose anything. I was taught by the teachers who Jesus is with. He sends holy spirit to guide them into all truth.

 

[Keiw]

None of which is written in Rev 14. It's a fabrication you have adopted as a false heavenly hope, but is not.

Rev 14:3--144,000 bought from the earth.

 

[Keiw]

That's a big admission on your part Keiw - you know that right?
What you must believe is verse 4 is speaking to all believers, not an elite group! As per 2 Corinthians 11:2.
So 144,000 symbolic of the 12 Gentiles x 12 Israelitish hope = innumerable number of believers made pure in Christ.

To hold a belief like yours, you would need an odd number - an obscure number which lacks a discernible meaning, unlike 12 x 12 which is so specific my youth group class could provide you a meaning in a heatbeat.

Here is a question.

If you were going to use a whole number to represent the redeemed, do you think 144,000 is a good example?

I mean - how can you put a number to this "a great multitude which no man could number' Rev 7:4

Impossible right?

So, to demonstrate the significance of a number, 12x12 in the thousands makes a lot of sense? It complete, its a large number significant of many peoples right?

I think you get this, especially given the symbolism you have already admitted to in verse 4.

F2F

Not true.

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw & @Aunty Jane if you did arrive at 144,000 being highly symbolic of the total number of the redeemed which the chapter is clearly speaking of - what other verses in Scripture would speak of a defined number of elite who go to Heaven to rule with Christ from there?
I guess you are looking for a Gospel account that teaches Christ and this elite group are going to Heaven to manage earthly affairs. You would also need a story that taught the throne of David is somehow taken to Heaven when its prophetic fulfillment is on earth.
Tough ask!

Jesus is already in heaven, sitting on his throne from Rev 6:2 this began= the presence- Matt 24:37--1Cor 15:23--Philippians 2:12-- 2Pet 3:4--The 144,000 are bought from the earth to heaven to do this-Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6--in heaven. Most of them are there now, the rest get changed in the twinkling of an eye during the tribulation. The seperating of the sheep and goats occurs-then Armageddon.

 

[face2face]

I didnt pick and choose anything. I was taught by the teachers who Jesus is with. He sends holy spirit to guide them into all truth.

No you did, or someone did it for you, either way, You have admitted Rev 14:4 is symbolic, which speaks to Rev 14:1 which you say the 144,000 is literal...see the issue?

 

[face2face]

Not true.

Not good enough.

 

[face2face]

Jesus is already in heaven, sitting on his throne from Rev 6:2 this began= the presence- Matt 24:37--1Cor 15:23--Philippians 2:12-- 2Pet 3:4--

Yet to sit on Luke 1:32 which is the whole reason for his return as per Ezekiel 21:25-27; Revelation 3:7; 5:5; Acts 2:29,30; Mat 1:1; 2 Sam 7:14 and so on.

The 144,000 are bought from the earth to heaven to do this-Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6--in heaven. Most of them are there now.

So you believe these are even more elite than those mention in Hebrews 11 and they are still dead and buried yet to receive their reward.

Wow you have swallowed falsehood good and proper!

1. THESE WERE ALL COMMENDED FOR THEIR FAITH, YET NONE OF THEM RECEIVED WHAT HAD BEEN PROMISED: Verse 39
2.GOD HAD PLANNED SOMETHING BETTER FOR US SO THAT ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD THEY BE MADE PERFECT Verse 40

On 2 counts you are proved wrong.

Imagine the pride and arrogance to believe there are JW's in Heaven and those mentioned in Hebrews 11 are not. It matters not, as their hope was to inherit the earth, not Heaven!!!

It's a crazy religion JW's that is.

F2F

 

[VCO]

Matt 23:39 is what they need to do to get mercy--they won't do it.

The will after the Rapture, AND the Two Witnesses of Revelation who demonstrate numerous miracles FROM GOD in front of them.

The typical hocus pocus of the so-called TV evangelist, will NEVER FOOL THEM. Such as: "That's the Power of God He game me."
And even I say, "No that is a Con-GAME."

For you and me, NEVER.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

I think the Prophecy about the 2 Witnesses, is going to happen LITERALLY.

Revelation 11:3-13 (HCSB)
3 I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5 If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and consumes their enemies; if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
6 These men have the power to close up the sky so that it does not rain during the days of their prophecy. They also have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every plague whenever they want.
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, conquer them, and kill them.
8 Their dead bodies will lie in the public square of the great city, which prophetically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 And representatives from the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will view their bodies for three and a half days and not permit their bodies to be put into a tomb.
10 Those who live on the earth will gloat over them and celebrate and send gifts to one another because these two prophets brought judgment to those who live on the earth.
11 But after 31/2 days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet. So great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” They went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them. {LIVE ON CNN EVENING NEWS.}
13 At that moment a violent earthquake took place, a tenth of the city fell, and 7,000 people were killed in the earthquake. The survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[face2face]

I think the Prophecy about the 2 Witnesses, is going to happen LITERALLY.

That history has been a gone.