Gotten a little off track here, perhaps my initial OP was a little too vague or difficult for some folks comprehension. I think it's really simple.
The wages of sin is death.
In order to be redeemed, a price had to be paid on our behalf. That price was paid by Jesus. What was that price? Death of course.
Yet Christians such as Jack have been so indoctrinated by the lies of the mediaeval church they believe the wages of sin is eternal torment. Yet if that were true, then
A. The wages of sin would be eternal torment.
And
B. In order to be redeemed, someone would have to pay that price on our behalf
And
C. Jesus ought to be still in hell being tormented, and being eternal, that price could never ever be paid in full.
Am I the only one here able to discern the glaring contradictions inherent in the doctrine of eternal torment compared to what scripture actually teaches? Why is it so popular to paint God as a murdering tyrant bent on torture?
And yes, QUIET asks a valid question...
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:46 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
But whatever we make of God's motives, we first need to know what the punishment actually is, and why it's forever. The inherent belief with many Christians is the spiritualist or occultist understanding of the nature of man, that being immortal. The mistaken conclusion being that wherever we go, heaven or somewhere else, we need to continue living. This is merely a repetition of Satan's lie to Eve in the garden, "you won't die", a direct contradiction to God's warning re the result of sin... "You will die", not mentioning the many scriptures that speaks directly to our indirectly concerning man's mortal being.
You can't have it both ways. People need to choose, who told the truth and who lied ? Do we live forever in our natural sinful state? My answer is no. We die. And without a resurrection, that death...or punishment... Whatever you like to call it... Is forever.
This occult picture people are so determined to paint of God... That He desires to immortalize sin and sinners just a mile or so under our feet for an unending eternity with the screams and agonizing despairing cries and hateful curses of sinners against God and His people echoing throughout the universe without end, (as per the parable of Lazarus and Abraham) is a disgusting abomination and ought to be banned as a doctrine from every Christian church and media outlet on the planet.
That said, we need to clearly declare that there is a place of suffering and torment we need to shun. As Jesus says here...
“41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth....”
Matthew 13:41-42 KJV
The alternative is worth working towards...
“Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. ”
Matthew 13:43 KJV
Did Jesus teach that an immortal soul separates from the body and flies off into hell while the body rots in the grave?
“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: ”
Mark 9:47 KJV
No. Jesus taught that the whole person is cast into hell, not immediately after the death, but after the resurrection to damnation and after judgement. And the inevitable result of being cast into that lake of fire is spelled out...
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderes and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ”
Revelation 21:8 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
It is death. The second death. However long people suffer, the inevitable result is death. Destruction. As per John 3:16 and dozens of other scriptures in both old and new testaments that speak ofAnd before anyone can experience the second destruction, perishing, consuming... All being death, but that second death first requires a second life...they need a second life, brought about by a resurrection, a resurrection which takes place at a different time from the resurrection of the just and the second coming.
But eternal torment? Why would you be so determined to insult God with such concepts?
The wages of sin is death.
In order to be redeemed, a price had to be paid on our behalf. That price was paid by Jesus. What was that price? Death of course.
Yet Christians such as Jack have been so indoctrinated by the lies of the mediaeval church they believe the wages of sin is eternal torment. Yet if that were true, then
A. The wages of sin would be eternal torment.
And
B. In order to be redeemed, someone would have to pay that price on our behalf
And
C. Jesus ought to be still in hell being tormented, and being eternal, that price could never ever be paid in full.
Am I the only one here able to discern the glaring contradictions inherent in the doctrine of eternal torment compared to what scripture actually teaches? Why is it so popular to paint God as a murdering tyrant bent on torture?
And yes, QUIET asks a valid question...
Our answer would need to harmonize with such as the following...
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:46 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
But whatever we make of God's motives, we first need to know what the punishment actually is, and why it's forever. The inherent belief with many Christians is the spiritualist or occultist understanding of the nature of man, that being immortal. The mistaken conclusion being that wherever we go, heaven or somewhere else, we need to continue living. This is merely a repetition of Satan's lie to Eve in the garden, "you won't die", a direct contradiction to God's warning re the result of sin... "You will die", not mentioning the many scriptures that speaks directly to our indirectly concerning man's mortal being.
You can't have it both ways. People need to choose, who told the truth and who lied ? Do we live forever in our natural sinful state? My answer is no. We die. And without a resurrection, that death...or punishment... Whatever you like to call it... Is forever.
This occult picture people are so determined to paint of God... That He desires to immortalize sin and sinners just a mile or so under our feet for an unending eternity with the screams and agonizing despairing cries and hateful curses of sinners against God and His people echoing throughout the universe without end, (as per the parable of Lazarus and Abraham) is a disgusting abomination and ought to be banned as a doctrine from every Christian church and media outlet on the planet.
That said, we need to clearly declare that there is a place of suffering and torment we need to shun. As Jesus says here...
“41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth....”
Matthew 13:41-42 KJV
“Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. ”
Matthew 13:43 KJV
Did Jesus teach that an immortal soul separates from the body and flies off into hell while the body rots in the grave?
“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: ”
Mark 9:47 KJV
No. Jesus taught that the whole person is cast into hell, not immediately after the death, but after the resurrection to damnation and after judgement. And the inevitable result of being cast into that lake of fire is spelled out...
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderes and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ”
Revelation 21:8 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
It is death. The second death. However long people suffer, the inevitable result is death. Destruction. As per John 3:16 and dozens of other scriptures in both old and new testaments that speak ofAnd before anyone can experience the second destruction, perishing, consuming... All being death, but that second death first requires a second life...they need a second life, brought about by a resurrection, a resurrection which takes place at a different time from the resurrection of the just and the second coming.
But eternal torment? Why would you be so determined to insult God with such concepts?
