Are only 144,000 saved? (Rev 14:1)

[VCO]

None of which is written in Rev 14. It's a fabrication you have adopted as a false heavenly hope, but is not.

IT IS LITERAL. Have you noticed that once your mind, slips off what is Literal, it slides deeper and deeper, into to the abyss of total fabrication. The best way of making sure that does not happen to you, is to find a really good Bible Teacher, such as Dr. John MacArthur. and Listen to every Sermon, more that once. I have listened to every Sermon on Revelation 4 times each. It was my spiritual MILK, when I was first born again, and later on I listened 3 more times. Some, not from the USA, would say, who is Dr. John MacArthur:

He is Senior Pastor at Grace Community Church, near Los Angeles, California, a non-denominational evangelical style of Church. He is also President of the Masters College and Seminary in the same area. All of John's 3,000 sermons, spanning more than four decades of ministry, are available for free on the Grace to You website. His series of Sermons are available for free, but best is His Series on Revelation, in my opinion. Start with a tape recording "A Jet Tour of Revelation" Dec. 5, 1982. YES that is the Same Series that I listened to, back in the Spring of 1983, on Radio. Sermons

Apparently they have it Set on Auto-Link, to shorten the link to where it does not work. Okay, I will tell you how to get there. You can try typing in gty.org . WHY? It is the best verse by verse study of Revelation that I have found, PERIOD. If that does not work for you, add the https then the :// then the www. Yes that Period is supposed to be there behind the w's.

Once there, scroll down on the Left to the box called Choose Book. Then change that to Revelation. The first Sermon is entitled:
"A Jet Tour of Revelation". That is a fast trip thru the WHOLE BOOK, to give you an idea of what Revelation is all about. The rest of the Series if verse by verse through the entire book.

I am sure you all will enjoy his verse by verse study through book of Revelation.

 

[Taken]

Dear RR144,
I certainly agree that Christ is the Savior of the world; meaning that Christ will save 100% of mankind.

Disagree with your meaning.
Jesus has informed us Christ shall BLESS WITH SALVATION ALL of mankind that BELIEVES…..BEFORE their BODILY DEATH.

However, the "144,000" is not a literal number as you seem to imply. It is a spiritual symbol which carries a meaning "not taught by man's wisdom":

Disagree. The number 144,000 is express Knowledge revealed, regarding the express First Fruits, or otherWISE, the Wisdom, that the First Believers IN the Savior of ManKIND, WERE a specific portion “out of” Gods ELECT ISRAEL, and WERE the FIRST SAVED, and that specific portion “out of” Gods ELECT, were EXPRESSLY, 12 thousand men, “out of” Each of the 12 Tribes of Gods Elect ISRAEL.

The WISDOM revealed to manKIND, is the Understanding of the SAYING;
Matt 20:16
[16] So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

And the context of that SAYING, is revealed in Matt 20 1-15, whereby ALL men were Offered an opportunity for reward. A few men accepted early on in the day, a few men accepted the Offering late in the day….ALL were given the SAME Reward at the END of the Day.
Those who accepted early, whined, because those who accepted the Offering late, received the same reward.
Wisdom revealed….Don’t worry about IF or WHEN you accept your Offering, or IF and WHEN an other accepts their Offering …
the Giver of the Offering and Reward IS His to Give According to His Word.

It is a parallel, to ISRAEL accepting Gods Offering of Salvation THROUGH Christ AND the FIRST to accept WAS 12,000 men each of the 12 Tribes of ISRAEL, and the LAST to accept WILL BE men of the 12 Tribes of ISRAEL.

Being THERE IS a specific FIRST (ISRAEL) and a specific LAST (ISRAEL)….wisdom is understanding THERE IS a “specific” “PEOPLE….who are NOT ISRAEL”, in between the specific FIRST and LAST….
And “THAT” in between, IS Specifically the RACE of Human men called: GENTILES.
Gentiles have been “accepting” the offering since “they” first “heard” of such “Offering”, some 2,000 years ago.
At the end of the DAY (so to speak), being the DAY of the Lord, His DAY, That He GIVES the REWARDS: The Receivers, presently DIVIDED RACES: (ISRAEL, GENTILES)….
SHALL ALL (100% if you choose to express the receiving in a math equation)….WITHOUT consideration of the DIVISION, of their RACE (ISRAEL or GENTILE), nor consideration of WHEN, the time, the hour, THEY accepted the OFFERING, ALL the faithful SHALL BE SAVED, and ALL the faithful SHALL receive their REWARD…..WHEN….
Rev 22:
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my rewardis with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

You said:
Adam was a perfect man created in God’s image.

Adam was created as a spiritual being who has self awareness (God's image). However, Adam's spirit was "marred" and subject to vanity (sin).

I agree with your assessment put into your words….
I would say in Gods words… In the beginning God CREATED and MADE, his creations VERY GOOD. (Not perfect).
Rather it is DURING every individual mans natural LIFETIME, a man has opportunity to hear, learn, trust, believe, (accept or NOT); God Offers EVERY man Opportunity for the Lord God to “MAKE” a man “PERFECTED”….
According to Gods “Order and Way”.

One final point: End-time prophecy teaches the steps of this pathway, as does the book of Revelation. The prophecies are not teaching on future outward world events as is commonly believed.

Disagree in part.
A PERSON, (which IS a bodily ALIVE man, With his living soul IN Him), being bodily alive (on the Earth, During the Trib) IS able with his living soul ie: (senses: hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, touching)…is FULLY equipped to recognize, see, hear, feel, smell, taste, experience the EFFECTS upon the Earth during the Trib. (EVEN NOW) Whether or NOT the man believes.
Agree…
The EFFECTS during the Tribulation ARE SPIRITUALLY “CAUSED”, SPIRITUALLY “EFFECTED”.
Being informed the end of days, the last Tribulations….ARE Spiritually CAUSED and EFFECTED BY God….is Knowledge revealed IN Scripture….
God Destroyed the Earth and it’s inhabitants ONCE……WITH the EARTH
AND…the Knowledge “nothing new under the sun”….what WAS SHALL be AGAIN.
Which is to say; AGAIN God SHALL “CAUSE” the Destruction OF the EARTH, WITH the EARTH. And ONCE “AGAIN”, that which God SAVES, shall be LIFT UP ABOVE the EARTH.

Scriptural knowledge:
Nothing new under the sun.
Destruction of the Earth, is with the EARTH;
God Saves SOULS.
Saved SOULS rise UP above the EARTH.
ALL mens BODIES, MUST Die.
Resurrection OF ALL Bodies SHALL occur.
Saved souls, Glorified risen Bodies, SHALL remain WITH God Forever.
Unsaved souls, Natural risen Bodies, SHALL be DESTROYED with Fire, and forgotten.

The events are spiritual and happen "within" a believer.

Once the Elect believer is converted, they will spiritually stand before the throne as presented in Rev 7:9-17.

Joe

Yes, Agree, Spiritual transformation happens WITH-IN an individual.
Yes, Agree, he Converted is the audience BEFORE the Throne of God.

Yet, so also are the NON-BELIEVERS called to stand before the JUDGE….(not His Throne)….and receive their “Sentence”, according to their own Freewill Choices, and the “EVIDENCE” in Gods Books, of “their recorded Freewill Choices”.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[VCO]

Why do most people Go to great Lengths to try to explain the meaning of 144,000, WHEN it says it plain as DAY right in the Text.

 

[Keiw]

No you did, or someone did it for you, either way, You have admitted Rev 14:4 is symbolic, which speaks to Rev 14:1 which you say the 144,000 is literal...see the issue?

Truth revealed through these-Matt 24:45. They are correct on that matter. Its why Rev 7:9 shows no man can put a number on the great crowd--The little flock( Luke 12:32) are numbered-144,000.

 

[Keiw]

Yet to sit on Luke 1:32 which is the whole reason for his return as per Ezekiel 21:25-27; Revelation 3:7; 5:5; Acts 2:29,30; Mat 1:1; 2 Sam 7:14 and so on.


So you believe these are even more elite than those mention in Hebrews 11 and they are still dead and buried yet to receive their reward.

Wow you have swallowed falsehood good and proper!

1. THESE WERE ALL COMMENDED FOR THEIR FAITH, YET NONE OF THEM RECEIVED WHAT HAD BEEN PROMISED: Verse 39
2.GOD HAD PLANNED SOMETHING BETTER FOR US SO THAT ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD THEY BE MADE PERFECT Verse 40

On 2 counts you are proved wrong.

Imagine the pride and arrogance to believe there are JW's in Heaven and those mentioned in Hebrews 11 are not. It matters not, as their hope was to inherit the earth, not Heaven!!!

It's a crazy religion JW's that is.

F2F

The teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers. You should learn what he actually taught then you could see that reality.

 

[Keiw]

The will after the Rapture, AND the Two Witnesses of Revelation who demonstrate numerous miracles FROM GOD in front of them.

The typical hocus pocus of the so-called TV evangelist, will NEVER FOOL THEM. Such as: "That's the Power of God He game me."
And even I say, "No that is a Con-GAME."

For you and me, NEVER.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

I think the Prophecy about the 2 Witnesses, is going to happen LITERALLY.

Revelation 11:3-13 (HCSB)
3 I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5 If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and consumes their enemies; if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
6 These men have the power to close up the sky so that it does not rain during the days of their prophecy. They also have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every plague whenever they want.
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, conquer them, and kill them.
8 Their dead bodies will lie in the public square of the great city, which prophetically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 And representatives from the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will view their bodies for three and a half days and not permit their bodies to be put into a tomb.
10 Those who live on the earth will gloat over them and celebrate and send gifts to one another because these two prophets brought judgment to those who live on the earth.
11 But after 31/2 days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet. So great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” They went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them. {LIVE ON CNN EVENING NEWS.}
13 At that moment a violent earthquake took place, a tenth of the city fell, and 7,000 people were killed in the earthquake. The survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

They will never admit to having Gods son killed.
Alot of symbolism in revelation.

 

[VCO]

They will never admit to having Gods son killed.
Alot of symbolism in revelation.

Better Check your attitude towards the Jewish People. That's how Adolf Hitler got started.

Only a small amount of Symbolism, you have inflated the rest, beyond what is REASONABLE.

 

[face2face]

IT IS LITERAL.

So the Lamb is a literal lamb standing on Mount Zion?
Only literal virgins will be saved?
No VCO Rev 14 is highly symbolic including the number 144,000
Enjoy
F2F

 

[face2face]

Truth revealed through these-Matt 24:45. They are correct on that matter. Its why Rev 7:9 shows no man can put a number on the great crowd--The little flock( Luke 12:32) are numbered-144,000.

It's incoherent ramblings from one who has been brainwashed with man-made doctrine. Verse hopping wont allow you to see this aright.
144,000 is a beautiful number 12 x 12 Jews first then the Gentiles...you can see it just need to come out from among them and be separate.

 

[face2face]

Alot of symbolism in revelation.

O this is ironic Keiw - you mean literalism dont you?

 

[face2face]

The teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers. You should learn what he actually taught then you could see that reality.

Such a weak response Keiw - Did you look up the verses to see Davids Throne is on earth? Not in Heaven!

Here is it again:

Jesus is yet to sit on Davids Throne as per Luke 1:32, which is the whole reason for his return (it's the Hope of Israel) as per Ezekiel 21:25-27; Revelation 3:7; 5:5; Acts 2:29,30; Mat 1:1; 2 Sam 7:14 and so on.

Walk away from the JW teachers and sit at Gods feet - He is a Great teacher!

 

[VCO]

So the Lamb is a literal lamb standing on Mount Zion?
Only literal virgins will be saved?
No VCO Rev 14 is highly symbolic including the number 144,000
Enjoy
F2F

Rapture comes first, Rev. 4:1-4, now I want to show you all what MOST PEOPLE, especially those ZEALOUS to prove PRETRIB believes Wrong. You MISSED SOMETHING IMPORTANT. What happened to Christ after He arrived in Heaven ? ? ? HE SAT DOWN ON THE THRONE, Pretrib. Are we not supposed to follow in HIS Footsteps ? ? ? So we too Go to Heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb, Pretrib.
Doubters look at verse 4. I will show you MORE EVIDENCE.

Revelation 4:1-4 (HCSB)
1 After this I looked, and there in heaven was an open door. The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said,
“Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
2 Immediately I was in the Spirit, and a throne was set there in heaven. One was seated on the throne,
3 and the One seated looked like jasper and carnelian stone. A rainbow that looked like an emerald surrounded the throne.
4 Around that throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 elders dressed in white clothes, with gold crowns on their heads.
{The WORK of Preaching the GOOD NEWS, is FINISHED, and in our Elders, in their GLORIFIED BODIES SAT DOWN, JUST LIKE CHRIST. The Two Witnesses will Converts almost every Jew in Israel, before their DEATH. Who are the Two Witnesses, it is not in our BIBLES, but who do I think they are? I think they are Enoch and Elijah. WHY? God says:
2 Chronicles 25:4 (ASV)
4 . . . but every man shall die for his own sin.
And Enoch and Elijah, did not die, YET, the two witness die at the hands of the Antichrist. Further evidence that it has to be After the Rapture, when John saw them sitting on their Thrones, because of Christ's example for us. Our work was DONE by Rev. 4:4.}

Lots of luck with your Theory, but you are going miss out on a LOT OF LITERAL FACTS.

There is a lot more Literal Facts, than Symbolic Facts in Revelation.


. Antichrist beheads everyone who refuses to worship him as God.

.
Yes this is Symbolism of REAL EVENTS ON WORLD HISTORY, about to unfold on the WORLD.
Antichrist Conquers E.U., Starts WWIII, Followed by sickness, and DEATH follows that on a unpresented scale.


The Two Witnesses take over where the Church left off.

.The Second Coming to make WAR on the Nations that Attacked Israel.
.
.
Then Comes the Millennial Kingdom, and Judgment Day for the wicked.

And Then the LAKE OF FIRE:



Are you sure, you want to bet it is mostly Symbolism ? ? ?

I attempted suicide 3 times in the last week of 1977, before HIS SALVATION Came in my Heart. This is very, very similar that vision I had that made me drop the Pistol the two times that I had against my Temple.

 

[face2face]

Why do most people Go to great Lengths to try to explain the meaning of 144,000, WHEN it says it plain as DAY right in the Text.

View attachment 32450

Because the use of metaphors and symbols require unpacking to fully appreciate the message of the Revelation. In fact blessings are promised for those who rightly divide the Word.

 

[face2face]

Lots of luck with your Theory, but you are going miss out on a LOT OF LITERAL FACTS.

There is a lot more Literal Facts, that Symbolic Facts in Revelation.

As the OP relates to Revelation 14:1-5 our focus is firmly on that section and as I said, which you have keenly avoided - the lamb is not a literal lamb and the saved are not literally virgins. Once you understand this you can then state with confidence the number 144,000 is representative of something which is literal.

That is 12 x 12 Jews & Gentiles called from the masses to become the sons and daughters of God - a number to represent the innumerable who are saved.

Very simple really.

 

[Keiw]

Better Check your attitude towards the Jewish People. That's how Adolf Hitler got started.

Only a small amount of Symbolism, you have inflated the rest, beyond what is REASONABLE.

Did you see what Jesus said to them at Matt 23? He told them off, Assured them they were cut off,23:38) but lovingly left the door open to them 23:39). Its them who outright refuse to walk through that door. Its been over 1950 years, i wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that occurrence to happen.

We find at 2 Chron 20: 33-Jehosaphat, even though a good king did not remove the high places)--That is where the false god worship things occurred. 2Chron 21: 13--God called worship to other gods-immoral intercourse--That is what is meant at Rev 14-- the reference about being virgins to women--it meant they did not ever serve a false god in a false religion. God called babylon the great(worldwide false religion) a whore or harlot. That explains the symbolism used about being virgins--because Peter was married, not a virgin, yet he is one of the 144,000.

All who know everything Jesus taught, know 100% his teachings back my teachers all the way. Its through them truth is revealed.

 

[Keiw]

It's incoherent ramblings from one who has been brainwashed with man-made doctrine. Verse hopping wont allow you to see this aright.
144,000 is a beautiful number 12 x 12 Jews first then the Gentiles...you can see it just need to come out from among them and be separate.

To the great crowd Jesus said this--Matt 5:5--Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. Who do your teachers say that truth is to? since only the little flock and great crowd will get saved? They don't know the difference between the two groups yet one flock.

 

[Keiw]

Such a weak response Keiw - Did you look up the verses to see Davids Throne is on earth? Not in Heaven!

Here is it again:

Jesus is yet to sit on Davids Throne as per Luke 1:32, which is the whole reason for his return (it's the Hope of Israel) as per Ezekiel 21:25-27; Revelation 3:7; 5:5; Acts 2:29,30; Mat 1:1; 2 Sam 7:14 and so on.

Walk away from the JW teachers and sit at Gods feet - He is a Great teacher!

Gods throne is in heaven is it not? David was a mortal so obviously his throne was on earth.
Yes sit on Davids throne in a sense, meaning, Gods appointed, anointed king over Gods chosen ones. Not the actual throne. I doubt it even exists.

 

[face2face]

Gods throne is in heaven is it not? David was a mortal so obviously his throne was on earth.
Yes sit on Davids throne in a sense, meaning, Gods appointed, anointed king over Gods chosen ones. Not the actual throne. I doubt it even exists.

O it will exist Keiw...concerned you might not be there to see it.

“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David . ”Luke 1:32

God is yet to give him that throne!

Ah that's the point Keiw....He's bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth to establish this Kingdom.

I can post these all day but I very much doubt you will grasp it...its the brain washing you see! JW's have cast off most of the OT - you have no Vision.

F2F

 

[face2face]

To the great crowd Jesus said this--Matt 5:5--Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. Who do your teachers say that truth is to? since only the little flock and great crowd will get saved? They don't know the difference between the two groups yet one flock.

Matthew 5 is for all God's true Children - all one flock!

 

[VCO]

Because the use of metaphors and symbols require unpacking to fully appreciate the message of the Revelation. In fact blessings are promised for those who rightly divide the Word.

Believe what you want to, but as for me, I WILL BELIEVE WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS PUT ON MY HEART, WHICH IS TRUTH.