Another Premillennial absurdity

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course you reject a doctrine that lacks Biblical proof. We all do. (maybe you don't think I do, that's fine. :) ) But my question is one that both sides should be able to answer. Whether a person affirms Amillennialism or Premillennialism one should know the answer to my question. I asked you to answer it, knowing that YOU wouldn't reject something YOU proved for yourself. I'm not asking you to take my word for it. I want you to take YOUR word for it. But, in order for YOU to own it, you need to find it for yourself.

What a load of nonsense. Why not give him a chance to be like the Bereans who took what they were taught and looked things up for themselves to see if it was true or not? In this case, he can't even do that because you won't tell him what you believe about this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nice try, but that isn't the promise Paul had in mind. He spent Eight entire chapters defending the promise you mentioned. Beginning in Romans 9, he changes the subject to speak about another promise God made.

Nice try, but there's no reason to take you seriously when you won't even say what you think that promise is. If only you knew how ridiculous you come across when you play ludicrous mind games like this. Like you're a little child saying "I know something you don't know!". Bible discussion isn't about hiding things from others and just telling them that they don't know what you know. We should be willing to share what we believe here. But, you won't do that just because you're afraid to, apparently. That doesn't say much for what you believe. The truth is not something that anyone should ever be hesitant to share.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I meant that his main focus is spiritual because he's talking about spiritual salvation throughout Romans 9-11.

Agreed.

You are not getting that Paul was speaking in the present tense in Romans 11:11-14. When he said he wanted to provoke some of his fellow Israelites to jealousy, do you think he was talking about Israelites that wouldn't even be alive until at least about 2,000 years later?

I'm saying that he doesn't know when God will circumcised the hearts of his people and he would like to be a part of THAT.

No, he was talking about his fellow Israelites living at that time that he personally wanted to help save.

How do you figure? Paul wouldn't drop a non-sequitur right in the middle of his argument. Why would he do that?

11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!

They = The nation of Israel.
In this context, Paul is using a third person plural pronoun to represent the collective noun "Israel", which is a single country made up of more than one person. You can’t have a team without individual members; even so, we discuss a team as a single entity. Likewise, Paul speaks about Israel as a single entity.

11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Their = The nation of Israel.
The same is true of this pronoun. Paul is speaking about the single entity "Israel" not individual citizens of Israel. He tells us that Israel's transgression, her failure became riches for the Gentiles, which is another collective noun. In this instance, "Gentiles" refers to all Gentile peoples taken as a whole. The New Covenant is available to all people and no group of people is excluded.

In this instance, "fulfillment" means something like "manned." Think of a Greek trireme ship, which is propelled along the water by oarsmen. And when the entire trireme has a full compliment of oarsmen on board, it is said to be "fulfilled." Later Paul will say that Israel is partially hardened, and this is like a trireme with only a fraction of her crew on board. Eventually Paul says, the nation of Israel will be "fulfilled" or fully populated with believers.

11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Gentiles = all the peoples of the earth (except Israel) taken as a whole.
Paul will go anyplace and to any Gentile family as long as time allows.

11:14
if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Some of them = the hardened Israelites.
Again, saving Israelites per se doesn't magnify his ministry because outside the context of nationhood, individual Israelites are just like other people. All individuals, whether Jew or Gentile, can be saved if they call upon the name of the Lord. Jew or Gentile makes no difference. What Paul has in mind is the fulfillment of Israel, i.e. God's promise to soften their hearts, and open their eyes and ears. It would magnify his ministry if God would allow him to participate in Deuteronomy 30: 6-10 because THAT would indicate that God's promise didn't fail.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What a load of nonsense. Why not give him a chance to be like the Bereans who took what they were taught and looked things up for themselves to see if it was true or not? In this case, he can't even do that because you won't tell him what you believe about this.

If I told you why, you wouldn't accept it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, when someone says something that everyone except that person knows is complete nonsense, then I call it out as such. I don't believe there is another person in the world who would agree with you that Paul changed the subject from Romans 9:24 to verse 25. So, you need me to spell this out for you? Okay then.

No, it's not okay. I am concerned you are robbing yourself of the truth, avoiding it with this particular tactic.

Okay, so throughout this passage Paul is talking about how it is up to God to determine who are His people and who are not, not man. And it's up to God what He wants each person to do and who He will take out His wrath on and so on. And then he points out that God calls not only Jews, but also Gentiles to be His people.

Disagree. Again, you have not considered or discovered the particular promise Paul has in view. Until you find it and consider it, you will never get it straight.

Of course not. That's my point. But, you're missing how Paul clarified the meaning of the prophecy of Hosea 2 by indicating that it applies to Gentiles as well.

Putting Gentiles INTO the passage is not clarifying it. That would change it. If I did such a thing you wouldn't let me get away with it. It is wrong, which is why Paul would never do it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you need to play games instead of you just making your point?

If you don't know already, then I can't help you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nice try, but there's no reason to take you seriously when you won't even say what you think that promise is. If only you knew how ridiculous you come across when you play ludicrous mind games like this. Like you're a little child saying "I know something you don't know!". Bible discussion isn't about hiding things from others and just telling them that they don't know what you know. We should be willing to share what we believe here. But, you won't do that just because you're afraid to, apparently. That doesn't say much for what you believe. The truth is not something that anyone should ever be hesitant to share.

Well, as I said, both sides of the issue should already know the answer. If you don't understand 9:6, which apparently you don't, then you won't understand chapters 9-11. Simple fact.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Agreed.

You agree? I guess I'll need to reconsider my view on this. I'm kidding (mostly).

I'm saying that he doesn't know when God will circumcised the hearts of his people and he would like to be a part of THAT.

I was referring to Romans 11:11-14 in particular. What are you talking about?

How do you figure?

How do I not figure? Have you actually read Romans 11:11-14?

Paul wouldn't drop a non-sequitur right in the middle of his argument. Why would he do that?

11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!

They = The nation of Israel.
In this context, Paul is using a third person plural pronoun to represent the collective noun "Israel", which is a single country made up of more than one person. You can’t have a team without individual members; even so, we discuss a team as a single entity. Likewise, Paul speaks about Israel as a single entity.

11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Their = The nation of Israel.
The same is true of this pronoun. Paul is speaking about the single entity "Israel" not individual citizens of Israel. He tells us that Israel's transgression, her failure became riches for the Gentiles, which is another collective noun. In this instance, "Gentiles" refers to all Gentile peoples taken as a whole. The New Covenant is available to all people and no group of people is excluded.

In this instance, "fulfillment" means something like "manned." Think of a Greek trireme ship, which is propelled along the water by oarsmen. And when the entire trireme has a full compliment of oarsmen on board, it is said to be "fulfilled." Later Paul will say that Israel is partially hardened, and this is like a trireme with only a fraction of her crew on board. Eventually Paul says, the nation of Israel will be "fulfilled" or fully populated with believers.

11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Gentiles = all the peoples of the earth (except Israel) taken as a whole.
Paul will go anyplace and to any Gentile family as long as time allows.

11:14
if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Some of them = the hardened Israelites.
Again, saving Israelites per se doesn't magnify his ministry because outside the context of nationhood, individual Israelites are just like other people. All individuals, whether Jew or Gentile, can be saved if they call upon the name of the Lord. Jew or Gentile makes no difference. What Paul has in mind is the fulfillment of Israel, i.e. God's promise to soften their hearts, and open their eyes and ears. It would magnify his ministry if God would allow him to participate in Deuteronomy 30: 6-10 because THAT would indicate that God's promise didn't fail.

What in the world are you even talking about here? He was talking the hardened Israelites of his day and saying that he wanted to make them jealous because of his ministry to the Gentiles and save some of them. When it says "some of them" it's talking about the hardened Israelites of his day. It has to be talking about them because Paul was talking in terms of himself personally helping to lead them to salvation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If I told you why, you wouldn't accept it.

That hasn't stopped you from sharing your opinions before, so what's different about this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, as I said, both sides of the issue should already know the answer. If you don't understand 9:6, which apparently you don't,

Why are you saying that I apparently don't understand Romans 9:6? What is that based on? I have explained my understanding of that verse many times and you have never done anything at all to refute it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it's not okay. I am concerned you are robbing yourself of the truth, avoiding it with this particular tactic.

What isn't okay? I didn't say anything about something being okay.

Disagree. Again, you have not considered or discovered the particular promise Paul has in view. Until you find it and consider it, you will never get it straight.

LOL. Do you actually think I'm going to take statements like this seriously when you won't even state what you believe the promise is? LOL. Hilarious.

Putting Gentiles INTO the passage is not clarifying it. That would change it. If I did such a thing you wouldn't let me get away with it. It is wrong, which is why Paul would never do it.

Paul applied the promises God made to Abraham and his seed to Gentiles (Gal 3:29) even though that isn't stated explicitly anywhere in the Old Testament. Does that mean he was changing the Old Testament passages that talk about the promises God made to Abraham and his seed? Of course not. So, your logic here doesn't hold up at all.

 

[rwb]

Of course you reject a doctrine that lacks Biblical proof. We all do. (maybe you don't think I do, that's fine. :) ) But my question is one that both sides should be able to answer. Whether a person affirms Amillennialism or Premillennialism one should know the answer to my question. I asked you to answer it, knowing that YOU wouldn't reject something YOU proved for yourself. I'm not asking you to take my word for it. I want you to take YOUR word for it. But, in order for YOU to own it, you need to find it for yourself.

What is you understanding of the following passage of Scripture? When Paul writes "which is the mother of us all" he is saying not of the Jews of faith only but Gentiles of faith also.

Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Randy Kluth]

They are not going to respect me or believe anything that I say as long as they are convinced that I am a heretic. The true test of one's beliefs is the pain one suffers for standing firm. These brothers are doing me a favor. They offer me to practice grace, patience, kindness and endurance.

I pray that the Lord will bless you and your family this weekend and if I don't see you, have a Happy Thanksgiving.

All that really matters is that God loves us. His people are not always that loving. I haven't been called a heretic, but I've been told I'm doing the work of Satan, as if he is my father.

These people are unable to discuss things in a civil way. And if you call them out for it, they will simply charge you with what they're doing.

I've tried to be kind to them, but I'm told that I can't expect them to be kind because I have to demonstrate it first, as if when I disagree with them, or defend myself against their charges, I'm being mean.

Anyway, I do hope to have a nice Thanksgiving--I do live here in the States. My wife, who is English, will enjoy it with me. You and Zoe (I assume she's your wife?) enjoy, and don't give these people 2 seconds of thought. Maybe when you're back, they'll realize that they need to set an example? Take care...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Genetically, bro, the entirety of humanity is Israel. Abraham's DNA is found in every person on the planet.

So physical DNA is not the criterion which determines whom God identifies as His Israel.

Only spiritual DNA is that criterion.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

Yes, we're all intermixed, but that's not how ethnologists would define an ethnicity. It is not just the DNA, but also the community. There may be people all across America with German DNA, but if they have the DNA of a particular Indian tribe, or have married into it, living in the community, they take on the traits of that society. Then it is they are not called "German," but rather, so-and-so Indian tribe.

Jewish blood alone doesn't make a Jew. If the Jew decides to live outside of the Jewish community and abandons his tradition, mixing in with another ethnicity and nationality, he soon will not have Jewish children. It is someone who lives within the Jewish community and lives by its traditions that makes one part of "Israel."

Not just anybody with Jewish blood fulfills Israel's "nationality." A nation has to be formed consisting of Jews.

 

[WPM]

That is very clear. I have no respect for him whatsoever. He is a false teacher who has no regard for the NT whatsoever.


Agree. That says it all about him.


He doesn't want to get it.


I agree. So, why are we bothering with him? I'm not sure. I don't think I will for much longer.

I agree. We have been giving some of these guys too much credibility for too long, which they do not deserve. It is a waste of time. They are in love with their doctrine, not the truth.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, we're all intermixed, but that's not how ethnologists would define an ethnicity. It is not just the DNA, but also the community. There may be people all across America with German DNA, but if they have the DNA of a particular Indian tribe, or have married into it, living in the community, they take on the traits of that society. Then it is they are not called "German," but rather, so-and-so Indian tribe.

Jewish blood alone doesn't make a Jew. If the Jew decides to live outside of the Jewish community and abandons his tradition, mixing in with another ethnicity and nationality, he soon will not have Jewish children. It is someone who lives within the Jewish community and lives by its traditions that makes one part of "Israel."

Not just anybody with Jewish blood fulfills Israel's "nationality." A nation has to be formed consisting of Jews.

Joining a kibbutz or eating kosher do not qualify anyone as chosen in God's sight.

Only faithfulness and obedience to Him and His Son do that.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree. So, why are we bothering with him? I'm not sure. I don't think I will for much longer.

I Agree

 

[Truth7t7]

Fortunately, in our day we're witnesses to the amazing patience that belongs to God. It is beyond anything we could've done or considered. Virtually every Christian in history gave up on Israel. But not God! He has Abraham in front of him all the time in His memory, assuring him that he will have descendants of faith, who will assemble once again into a nation of faith. Anyway, that's how I look at it.

Sounds like "once upon a time" in a bed time story with cookies and chocolate milk, because it's not found in my holy bible

 

[Truth7t7]

Nice try, but there's no reason to take you seriously when you won't even say what you think that promise is. If only you knew how ridiculous you come across when you play ludicrous mind games like this. Like you're a little child saying "I know something you don't know!". Bible discussion isn't about hiding things from others and just telling them that they don't know what you know. We should be willing to share what we believe here. But, you won't do that just because you're afraid to, apparently. That doesn't say much for what you believe. The truth is not something that anyone should ever be hesitant to share.

You are being openly "Trolled" before the forum

 

[jeffweeder]

A nation has to be formed consisting of Jews.

If that forming of a nation happened according to Gods will, they would not be alone.
People of all nations, according to his will, find themselves a part of the same nation when they are born again.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.

1pet 2
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a [special] people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies [the wonderful deeds and virtues and perfections] of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people [at all], but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.