Another Premillennial absurdity

[Spiritual Israelite]

The gulf between Amillennialism and Premillennialism is enormous. Amillennialism is based upon a spiritual heavenly eternal hope. Amillennialism is fixated with Christ. He is the fulfillment of every OT type and shadow. He fulfilled every heavenly demand. He abolished the old impotent ceremonial structure in full. He is the hope of Israel. He is the eternal hope for the believer. He is the only Promised Land that matters under the new covenant. The Premillennialists fixation is upon an earthly temporal carnal hope. It is obsessed with natural ethnic Israel. It is obsessed with natural soil in the Middle East.

I agree and you illustrated that very well. There's just a complete contrast between an emphasis and focus on what is eternal, spiritual and heavenly (the Amil focus) and what is temporal, carnal and earthly (the Premil focus).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia contain all of the sojourners on earth?

Thanks for the guffaw.

No. Peter is talking about his kinsmen who moved to other lands for whatever reason. These were known as the "diaspora" and lived as "aliens" wherever they went. An "alien" is a person who has not become a naturalized citizen of another country, choosing to remain a citizen of the country from which they came.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stop with the "nonsense" nonsense.

I will not. I find all of your beliefs to be complete nonsense. Especially your denial of the deity of Christ, but all of your other beliefs that you have shared as well. I don't know if I agree with you on one single thing.

Just admit that you don't agree.

Is that something to admit? I think I've made that pretty clear.

You claim ignorance of the Old Testament so it's no wonder you have never heard this idea. Ever heard the name "Lo-Ammi"?

I have never claimed ignorance of the Old Testament. Why are you lying? You are completely ignorant of the New Testament, though. That is obvious. The New Testament authors had a much different understanding of the Old Testament than you do, which is why you have no New Testament scripture whatsoever to back up your beliefs.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not true! Quite the opposite!

1 Peter 2:9-10, addressing the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, declares, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter declares that his readers are a chosen "genos" which is the Greek word for "race" or "family line."

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm fully aware of what you were trying to do, in promoting the reading of philosophy namwly "Darwin" as seen below in your quote from post #544, you aren't going to backpeddle as if it didn't take place.

All I can say is that when the first man hates the second man, the first man hears what he wants to hear from the second man.

 

[covenantee]

No. Peter is talking about his kinsmen who moved to other lands for whatever reason. These were known as the "diaspora" and lived as "aliens" wherever they went. An "alien" is a person who has not become a naturalized citizen of another country, choosing to remain a citizen of the country from which they came.

And what were those lands? 1 Peter 1:1

 

[CadyandZoe]

I will not. I find all of your beliefs to be complete nonsense. Especially your denial of the deity of Christ, but all of your other beliefs that you have shared as well. I don't know if I agree with you on one single thing.

You agree that I exist. :) or do you have doubts about that. I wonder. If we were having coffee would you talk to me this way? I don't know.

I have never claimed ignorance of the Old Testament.

No, not in so many words but you need to read it through Amil goggles.

Why are you lying? You are completely ignorant of the New Testament, though. That is obvious. The New Testament authors had a much different understanding of the Old Testament than you do, which is why you have no New Testament scripture whatsoever to back up your beliefs.

Notice that you haven't addressed my post directly. This is a clear indication that you have found nothing wrong with what I said.

 

[covenantee]

Peter declares that his readers are a chosen "genos" which is the Greek word for "race" or "family line."

The grammatical referent/antecedent of "ye" in 1 Peter 2:9 is "Ye" in 1 Peter 2:5.

1 Peter 2:5 describes the Church.

Ergo, 1 Peter 2:9 also describes the Church.

 

[WPM]

Peter declares that his readers are a chosen "genos" which is the Greek word for "race" or "family line."

Hello! The people of God are a spiritual family. We are a spiritual race. We are a spiritual nation. This has been repeatedly shown to you and you have repeatedly rejected it. Your fight is with the Scriptures here.

Like the Pharisees, you are obsessed with a faulty natural temporal ethnic and carnal outlook. That is classic Premil. That is classic Pharisaism. Your teachers have taught you wrong. You are distorting the new covenant heavenly and eternal reality. I hate to burst your bubble, but the old arrangement is gone forever. It will never be restored. Sadly, you are wed to it. That is the main issue here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you think that speaking in the third person about someone with whom you are having a conversation is okay? You don't find it a bit rude?

Of course not, but I didn't say that did I? No, not really. You seem to be having a conversation with a fictional character called "Premils" who ever that is.

Of course not, but what you fail to understand is that Paul is done talking about individual Jews by the time he gets to Romans 11:6 Beginning at Romans 11:7 he has changed the subject. He begins to speak about Israel the nation. You don't even agree that such a thing exists, so how can you know what Paul is talking about?

Let's put your theory that Paul was not talking about individuals starting in Romans 11:6 to the test.

Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

First, look at verse 17. Paul talked about some of the branches having been broken off. You don't think the broken off branches refer to individual Israelite unbelievers? I believe it clearly is.

Then he said "you, through a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others". Who do you think was he talking about there? I believe he was clearly talking Gentile believers being grafted in among Israelite believers. What else could have have been saying there?

Then notice in verse 20 Paul indicated that the branches "were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith". What is your understanding of that? It was the Israelite unbelievers (all except the remnant) who were broken off because of unbelief. That can't refer to the nation of Israel because it's not the case that the entire nation was cut off since there was a remnant who were saved. Who was Paul referring to when he said "you stand by faith". Individual Gentile believers. Who else? How could he have been speaking about an entire nation there?

It's very clear that Paul was talking about individuals being cut off because of unbelief and individuals being grafted in because of faith. That can't possibly apply to nations.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The grammatical referent/antecedent of "ye" in 1 Peter 2:9 is "Ye" in 1 Peter 2:5.

1 Peter 2:5 describes the Church.

Ergo, 1 Peter 2:9 also describes the Church.

Peter is talking to a particular church, which contains Jewish members living away from home.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello! The people of God are a spiritual family.

So what. Deuteronomy 7:9 isn't talking about a spiritual family.

 

[WPM]

So what. Deuteronomy 7:9 isn't talking about a spiritual family.

Of course it is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Peter declares that his readers are a chosen "genos" which is the Greek word for "race" or "family line."

So? Do you not understand that there is a spiritual family line that goes back to Abraham which consists of those who belong to Christ?

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[covenantee]

Peter is talking to a particular church, which contains Jewish members living away from home.

He is talking to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 1 Peter 1:1-2

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Peter is talking to a particular church, which contains Jewish members living away from home.

Were those people formerly not the people of God? Isn't it your contention that the Jews are the people of God? If so, how could he have been saying that they were formerly the people of God if he was talking only to Jews?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You agree that I exist. :) or do you have doubts about that.

I do. It is honestly difficult to believe that you are for real.

I wonder. If we were having coffee would you talk to me this way? I don't know.

That isn't possible since I don't drink coffee. But, if we did meet in person and we were talking about the same things we're talking about here, I absolutely would talk to you this way.

No, not in so many words but you need to read it through Amil goggles.

Notice that you haven't addressed my post directly. This is a clear indication that you have found nothing wrong with what I said.

LOL. That was a good one. I have found many things wrong with things you have said and have shown that. Excuse me if I don't address every single thing you say. You don't address everything I say, either. That isn't reasonable to expect that and you know it.

I will say one thing in your favor, though. You are obviously talking to a few of us Amils at the same time (generally speaking) and we all strongly disagree with your beliefs. But, unlike another poster, you're not thinking that we're ganging up on you or anything like that. So, thanks for realizing that.

 

[WPM]

Peter is talking to a particular church, which contains Jewish members living away from home.

The opposite is the truth. What Peter taught is in keeping with what Paul taught. After establishing the sovereign position held by God in salvation, Paul brings the Gentiles into the picture in regard to election in Romans 9:23-24. He contends in Romans 9:23-26, “that he [God] might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee (Hosea 2:23), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God (Hosea 1:10)”

In his great election discourse of Romans 9, Paul shows how true Israel has expanded out to incorporate the Gentiles. He previously covered this in great detail in Romans 2 and Romans 4. In perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy, the Gentiles have been brought into full union and communion with God, on the same basis as Israel’s remnant community, and have become a part of the spiritual seed of Abraham, through faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice.

Paul demonstrates in Romans 9:23-26 that Gentiles will be saved and join Israel’s believing remnant and as a result will be wholly considered as God’s chosen people. He proceeds to quote Hosea 2:23 (in verse 25) and Hosea 1:10 (in verse 26) to support his hypothesis. We see the enjoinment highlighted by the prophet Hosea in unambiguous terms. Not even the Dispensationalists could dilute this down or explain it away. Hosea 1:10 declares: “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.”

This correlates with many New Testament Scriptures that prove that we who were once aliens from God’s favor and separated from true Israel have now been fully integrated into believing Israel. New covenant Gentiles have been grafted into faithful Israel. Believing Gentiles and believing Israel share the same spiritual space and are not part of separate programs.

The next verse reveals what it is all about: “Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.” The Old Testament narrative is seen to be all about Jesus.

God’s heart was always to reach out to the Gentiles in a significant way. In the Old Testament they were frequently viewed in negative terms as blind, ignorant, in darkness and not God’s people. But an important part of the Abrahamic covenant, and the new covenant arrangement, was the enlightenment of the Gentiles. The cross was the turning point, but Pentecost empowered the Jewish believers to reach out and touch the nations. As a result, countless Gentiles were adopted into the congregation of God on an equal footing to the Jews. This supports the reality of a continuity of God’s people relating to God’s overriding covenant of grace covering both testaments.

Paul then quotes from Hosea 2:23: “I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.”

Central to Paul’s “remnant” theology teaching is the integration of the Gentiles into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how a large influx of Gentiles would come into the covenant family. The spiritual blessings and promises that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been imparted to the Gentiles by faith. The New Testament people of God are now:

1. The “children of the living God.”
2. His “beloved” possession.
3. And are intimately known by God as “my people.”

The elect remnant (the early followers of Jesus) functioned in the covenant promises pertaining to Israel, including extending out salvation to the nations. The Abrahamic promises, and many other Old Testament prophecies were realized in the growth of the new covenant congregation of God (ekklesia) to the nations – the Church. Paul confirms this when speaking to the Gentile believers at Galatia, saying, “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now” Galatians 4:28-29).

There is now no difference today between them and the elect Jews. Nationality doesn’t matter anymore today in the new covenant economy. Romans 10:12-13: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

There are no ethnicities within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, colors or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. The distinction is only between those that are born of God and are of the household of faith (both natural Israelites and natural Gentiles) and those that are Christ rejecting and consequently of their father the devil and are therefore of the flesh (both natural Israelites and natural Gentiles). God’s only vehicle for communion and the revelation of Himself on this earth is His body – the temple – the Church. This body, the Church, is the sole body ordained of God for the proclamation and defense of the Word of God, and has Christ as its supreme ruling Head.

Paul continues his thought in Romans 10:19-21. He employs Deuteronomy 32:21 to make this see them point: “Moses saith, I will provoke you (natural Israel) to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation (the mainly Gentile New Testament Church) I will anger you.”

This “foolish” nation that has been graciously found of God, without first seeking Him, is the largely Gentile New Testament congregation. They are those of all kindred’s, tongues and tribes, who have come to God through Christ in true repentance. That elect people are not a physical earthly nation but an invisible spiritual kingdom.

In Romans 10:20-21, Paul supports his line of reasoning, this time referring to Isaiah 65:1, saying, “Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me (the Gentiles). But to Israel (according to the flesh) he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

In Romans 10 Paul is tracing the unbelief of the Jews by which they rejected Jesus Christ. Paul makes clear that there is no difference between Jews and Greeks under the new covenant.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do. It is honestly difficult to believe that you are for real.


That isn't possible since I don't drink coffee. But, if we did meet in person and we were talking about the same things we're talking about here, I absolutely would talk to you this way.


LOL. That was a good one. I have found many things wrong with things you have said and have shown that. Excuse me if I don't address every single thing you say. You don't address everything I say, either. That isn't reasonable to expect that and you know it.

I will say one thing in your favor, though. You are obviously talking to a few of us Amils at the same time (generally speaking) and we all strongly disagree with your beliefs. But, unlike another poster, you're not thinking that we're ganging up on you or anything like that. So, thanks for realizing that.

You do gang up. It's obvious. Each one posts, and the others "like" it. You take turns battering an opposing position. I suppose it's natural to do this, if this is your conviction. But it is a form of "ganging up," largely because the tone is hostile and not brotherly.

I don't know why you all don't get tired of repeating yourselves, as if saying the same things over and over is going to convince someone if the arguments haven't worked in the past? Spiritualizing the Scriptures is something that works for Amills, but not for those who take the Scriptures literally in the relevant places.

1 Peter 1.1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Literal Interpretation: Peter is speaking to Christian Jews.
Symbolic Interpretation: Peter is speaking to "Spiritual Israel," aka International Christianity.

Simple difference, but this will not be resolved by numbers and pressure. It is a different kind of interpretation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Let's put your theory that Paul was not talking about individuals starting in Romans 11:6 to the test.

Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

First, look at verse 17. Paul talked about some of the branches having been broken off. You don't think the broken off branches refer to individual Israelite unbelievers? I believe it clearly is.

No, Paul is not talking about individuals. He is talking about Israel and the other nations. Only Israel, the family line of Jacob, is considered to be "natural branches." Remember the rhetorical question Paul asked in 11:11, concerning the nation of Israel.

Earlier, in 11:1, Paul asked whether or not God had given up on the Hebrews as a people. Paul answered no. Then he changes the subject from individual Hebrews to the nation taken as a whole. First he establishes the current state of affairs. With regard to the nation of Israel he says, " What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened." Israel, the nation, did not obtain God's grace, but individuals within that nation did. Romans 7:7 Finally, Paul sets out to argue that Israel WILL obtain God's grace. They did not obtain it yet, but someday they will. They did not stumble so as to fall, meaning, their transgression did NOT result in their destruction.

Then notice in verse 20 Paul indicated that the branches "were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith". What is your understanding of that?

Israel will be grafted back onto the tree when God circumcises her heart. IOW, she will become a people of faith.

It was the Israelite unbelievers (all except the remnant) who were broken off because of unbelief.

Granted. Therefore, the branches must represent something else other than people or nations. Paul says that God is saving the Gentiles in order to make Israel jealous. Where in the Bible does God talk about making Israel jealous? Deuteronomy 32:21. Why does God bring that up? This sentence is part of the Song of Moses, which the people are supposed to memorize and learn.

Now, in Deuteronomy 29:14-15 Moses speaks about two generations of people: (1) those standing here, and (2)those who are not standing here today. He speaks of another generation of the sons of Israel who will come later and review the result of the curses. (verse 22) and wonder why their parents did what they did. It's possible then, that Paul is speaking about generations during which Israel existed when God did not fulfill his promise to them as a nation. He blessed generations of Gentiles instead. Generations of Israel were cut off, while generations of Gentiles were grafted in.