Another Premillennial absurdity

[stunnedbygrace]

One more question too please. “Premil” means you think Jesus comes, the gathering together/rapture, sometime before the 1000 years? And then there are various offshoots from that as far as pretrib, midtrib, posttrib? So premil means you do believe the 1000 year reign literally occurs, right? And that you also believe that the first resurrection is the gathering together? But there are different views on WHEN that resurrection happens?

 

[Randy Kluth]

What does that mean? I’ve heard many times, “oh that’s just a straw man” but what does it MEAN?

It's an artificial representation created by someone to make it look like he's won an argument. I make an argument, and another creates a false caricature of it, and then demolishes it, thinking he's destroyed my argument.

But he only erects his "straw man" to make it look like what I'm arguing--it doesn't really represent what I'm arguing. You will find that happen many times on debate forums.

WPM is doing that right now in our Amil vs Premill discussion. I've argued that the Millennial earth will be peopled by mortals whose sin nature is being restrained, with Satan gone. But WPM creates a false caricature of this by claiming I believe the Millennial earth will be peopled by "goat-infested," corrupt people, whose sin can only destroy a paradisiacal world.

But did I say that the Millennial earth will be peopled by mortals who are corrupt and "goat-infested?" No, he has created a false caricature of what I've said I believe.

 

[MatthewG]

Hi again Matthew.
Paul and Peter etc were filled with the Spirit, but they wrote letters long after this infilling informing us of his second coming.
The second coming could not have happened in the past as it was comparable to Noah's flood, only worse than that.

Matt 24
21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you [during the great tribulation], ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones). 25 Listen carefully, I have told you in advance.


35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].


No event has happened like that. If it had then surely the Elect survivors would have written about it.


Read Jesus own words in Matt 25:31- to see what he will do to the sheep and the goats when he comes a second time.
We sheep have clearly not inherited what God prepared from the foundation of the world (Eden)
God bless

Hello thank for your thoughts on the subject matter, but that would mean Jesus is a liar.

There are secular writers that can be pointed to such as Suetonius, Josephus, Tacticus, and Cassio Dio.

It's up to people to seek this information out, and look also from the historical happenings with-in the Gospels whole time period, with in the Generation of Jesus that he spoke of coming back to, I believe was in 70AD.

You can say that it didn't happen, that is fine and maybe you are right however I wont doubt Jesus in the matter because He never lied, nor the Apostles about the coming destruction, and return.

God bless.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What does that mean? I’ve heard many times, “oh that’s just a straw man” but what does it MEAN?

The following, which I got off the internet, is a pretty good explanation.

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.​

The image of the "straw man" is meant to indicate weakness. The straw man is easily pushed over and knocked down. It can't offer any resistance.

(Reminds me of dear Aunt Sally) Just kidding.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's an artificial representation created by someone to make it look like he's won an argument. I make an argument, and another creates a false caricature of it, and then demolishes it, thinking he's destroyed my argument.

But he only erects his "straw man" to make it look like what I'm arguing--it doesn't really represent what I'm arguing. You will find that happen many times on debate forums.

WPM is doing that right now in our Amil vs Premill discussion. I've argued that the Millennial earth will be peopled by mortals whose sin nature is being restrained, with Satan gone. But WPM creates a false caricature of this by claiming I believe the Millennial earth will be peopled by "goat-infested," corrupt people, whose sin can only destroy a paradisiacal world.

But did I say that the Millennial earth will be peopled by mortals who are corrupt and "goat-infested?" No, he has created a false caricature of what I've said I believe.

Oh…! He sort of did that to me too, earlier today…
But…I don’t think it’s an intentional thing, honestly I don’t. I think he’s just got something in his mind about how something is impossible but you don’t know what that thing in his mind is…

 

[Randy Kluth]

One more question too please. “Premil” means you think Jesus comes, the gathering together/rapture, sometime before the 1000 years? And then there are various offshoots from that as far as pretrib, midtrib, posttrib? So premil means you do believe the 1000 year reign literally occurs, right? And that you also believe that the first resurrection is the gathering together? But there are different views on WHEN that resurrection happens?

Yes, Premill means you believe we are living in an age directly before a literal thousand year period, in which Christianity reigns supreme. Others have varying ideas about the character of this age. Many, for example, believe that Israel, as a nation, will convert to Christianity. I believe that.

The picture in the Scriptures seems to indicate that in the present age Abraham's promises, to have a massive number of godly nations, cannot be fulfilled until Satan is utterly defeated and bound at the 2nd Coming. Then, the glorified, immortal saints will reign from heaven over the mortal population of the earth for a period of a thousand years, the Millennium.

Those who are Premill include Pretribulationists, Postribulationists (me), Midtribulationists, and Pre-Wrath advocates. There is another term "Post-Millennialism," but I'll leave that for now. In sum, its advocates believe we can bring in the Kingdom of God by force of our Gospel message. We will, in effect, convert the world.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Like earlier today, I could tell he thought it was absolutely impossible that mere mortals could be on earth for the thousand years, but I couldn’t see WHY, or what was in his mind that made him think it was impossible.

I think he underestimates satans ability to stir up the flesh, even the flesh of righteous men, and to torment them that way. Like…he thinks satan bound would have no better effect?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh…! He sort of did that to me too, earlier today…
But…I don’t think it’s an intentional thing, honestly I don’t. I think he’s just got something in his mind about how something is impossible but you don’t know what that thing in his mind is…

Oh don't get me wrong. I think WPM could be a great guy, because he has a lot to say--he's done a lot of studying. Unfortunately, he does so largely to win arguments about certain subjects, rather than listen to the Lord and follow Him in helping others. He is a bit "mean-spirited." My prayers are for him--he's a brother.

 

[jeffweeder]

Wrong?? What you mean is that you disagree with Premills in their interpretation of things.

Rom 11 mentions that Salvation takes place at, and not before, Christ's 2nd Coming. This is the salvation of national Israel, which has not yet taken place. The only thing that has taken place in the present age is the salvation of a small remnant of Israel.

And it will not happen until then. If so, how can Israel be saved when Christ comes unless they convert *after* or *at* his Coming, and then begin to live a new life?

This is most definitely how Jewish believers perceived it in the 1st generation of Jewish believers. They expected Jesus to come back, shame Israel into repentance, and then bring about a restoration of the nation, replete with all the blessings they were promised, multitudes of children, long life, relief from their oppressors, and great prosperity.

But you don't think such questions are fair. Fine, my message is for others.


You better read it again...

Jesus shuts the door to salvation when he comes again. Wise follows are fine but foolish ones are lost. Today if you hear his voice dont be like the Israelites of the past. Your interpretation simply doesn't work Randy.


10 But while they were going away to buy oil, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut and locked. 11 Later the others also came, and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open [the door] for us.’ 12 But He replied, ‘I assure you and most solemnly say to you, I do not know you [we have no relationship].’ 13 Therefore, be on the alert [be prepared and ready], for you do not know the day nor the hour [when the Son of Man will come].

Whether the foolish ones were Jew or Gentile they are knocking on a locked door that will not be opened.

 

[MatthewG]

@jeffweeder i guess people are still waiting for heavens and earth to pass away, but this mention by Jesus is talking about how when the destruction came and the temple and all the priesthoods were done for and the sacrifices, was in reference to the heaven and land they understood all the way to ends of what they understood of the land, once the great and dreadful day would come and crush the old administration (going to sacrifice animals in the temple, the priest hood, even geneaology) would be replaced by Jesus which brings forth the new heaven and earth under a new administration that is from a heavenly source in which all believer get to experience now today having been born again and God giving them the holy spirit, and having the spirit of Christ with-in them, in which they have freedom in Christ. No more heaven and earth of the old administration - Jesus brings in the new heaven and earth in which all people have access to God by and through 1. NATURE 2. CONSCIENCE 3. OLD TESTAMENT 4. Jesus Christ, 5. The Apostles 6. The Spirit - there is one more but I have forgotten.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Like earlier today, I could tell he thought it was absolutely impossible that mere mortals could be on earth for the thousand years, but I couldn’t see WHY, or what was in his mind that made him think it was impossible.

He's created that to make Premill seem like a logical impossibility. Sadly, it is a tactic that is not very convincing. Premills do *not* teach a corrupt, "goat-infested" Millennial world. As much as he claims we should provide quotes on this, he has been unable to provide a single quote indicating Premills believe this!

It is only his sense that a mortal population with a Sin Nature *must* be corrupt and "goat-infested" as it is at times and at places in the present world. But in ithe Millennial world, Satan is bound, the glorified Church reigns, and God's word is fulfilling the promise to spread his knowledge across the earth "as the waters cover the sea."

There are many OT prophecies of this "Hope of Israel," and really the Hope of the whole world. It is a paradise, relative to today's world, despite the presence of sin-infected mortals. It will be a time in which sin is restrained, and peace reigns among nations. He wishes to counter all of those Millennial passages of the Messianic Kingdom by saying it can't exist if there are mortals on it who have a Sin Nature. Non-Sequitur!

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus words have still stood, even though all that old material age has been done away with, and now we live in an age of Fulfillment where Jesus has had the victory over all things, from my belief because I truly do believe Jesus did come in faith, just there is no record of it and I only explain so much about the Wrath of God being done in over with because during the interaction with Pilate - the Jews asked for Jesus Christ blood to be on their hands and their children... God let them have that, by destroying their heaven and earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus shuts the door to salvation when he comes again. Wise follows are fine but foolish ones are lost. Today if you hear his voice dont be like the Israelites of the past. Your interpretation simply doesn't work Randy.


10 But while they were going away to buy oil, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut and locked. 11 Later the others also came, and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open [the door] for us.’ 12 But He replied, ‘I assure you and most solemnly say to you, I do not know you [we have no relationship].’ 13 Therefore, be on the alert [be prepared and ready], for you do not know the day nor the hour [when the Son of Man will come].

Whether the foolish ones were Jew or Gentile they are knocking on a locked door that will not be opened.

You've said that WPM is a good teacher. He is *not* because he has a bad, contentious spirit.

I've thought you are a decent person, in contrast with him. Don't let his ways inform you that it's okay to be rude and to push your views through by constantly suggesting other opinions are "inept."

I can accept your Amill opinions as reasonable, so long as they are given in the right spirit. Thanks. :)

 

[jeffweeder]

Hello thank for your thoughts on the subject matter, but that would mean Jesus is a liar.

There are secular writers that can be pointed to such as Suetonius, Josephus, Tacticus, and Cassio Dio.

It's up to people to seek this information out, and look also from the historical happenings with-in the Gospels whole time period, with in the Generation of Jesus that he spoke of coming back to, I believe was in 70AD.

You can say that it didn't happen, that is fine and maybe you are right however I wont doubt Jesus in the matter because He never lied, nor the Apostles about the coming destruction, and return.

God bless.

Jesus is not a liar Matthew and he didnt lie about the Passage in Matt 25 which is clearly still pending. The Final judgment has not happened yet Bro and neither has the Lord left heaven to restore all things.

Act 3
18 And so God has fulfilled what He foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ (Messiah, Anointed) would suffer. 19 So repent [change your inner self—your old way of thinking, regret past sins] and return [to God—seek His purpose for your life], so that your sins may be wiped away [blotted out, completely erased], so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord [restoring you like a cool wind on a hot day]; 20 and that He may send [to you] Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He's created that to make Premill seem like a logical impossibility. Sadly, it is a tactic that is not very convincing.

I just really do not think it’s something he plans out and creates on purpose. I truly think there’s something in his head that makes it seem to him that it’s impossible and we just don’t know what that something is.

 

[MatthewG]

Jeffweeder,

Just prior before Acts 3, Peter claims the last days had come upon them by quoting joel.

You are free to believe however you want to, I am just giving you the facts from the bible when I am claiming anything to the best of my ability, and hopefully by the spirit, I could be wrong also, may it guide people to seek out.

These are some of my findings.

@jeffweeder i guess people are still waiting for heavens and earth to pass away, but this mention by Jesus is talking about how when the destruction came and the temple and all the priesthoods were done for and the sacrifices, was in reference to the heaven and land they understood all the way to ends of what they understood of the land, once the great and dreadful day would come and crush the old administration (going to sacrifice animals in the temple, the priest hood, even geneaology) would be replaced by Jesus which brings forth the new heaven and earth under a new administration that is from a heavenly source in which all believer get to experience now today having been born again and God giving them the holy spirit, and having the spirit of Christ with-in them, in which they have freedom in Christ. No more heaven and earth of the old administration - Jesus brings in the new heaven and earth in which all people have access to God by and through 1. NATURE 2. CONSCIENCE 3. OLD TESTAMENT 4. Jesus Christ, 5. The Apostles 6. The Spirit - there is one more but I have forgotten.

Jesus words have still stood, even though all that old material age has been done away with, and now we live in an age of Fulfillment where Jesus has had the victory over all things, from my belief because I truly do believe Jesus did come in faith, just there is no record of it and I only explain so much about the Wrath of God being done in over with because during the interaction with Pilate - the Jews asked for Jesus Christ blood to be on their hands and their children... God let them have that, by destroying their heaven and earth.

From the Context of the Gospels, and the Letters and the Old Testament, promise a destruction to come, the narrative is always primarily to Jewish people until the very last sections where Gentiles were coming into the fold now, and everything deals with the circumcison of the heart and to live by the spirit.

Therefore, it is kind of pointless to debate with me, but thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter as they are perfectly valid, and I dont look down on you for believing what you do just so you know I believe people have freedom in Christ to believe what they are going to, I just state what I believe by the use of the bible and trust in Jesus...


Some people do not even like that but I am not trying to down play you or anything.

The End of Material Religion

www.christianityboard.com

 

[WPM]

Wrong?? What you mean is that you disagree with Premills in their interpretation of things.

Rom 11 mentions that Salvation takes place at, and not before, Christ's 2nd Coming. This is the salvation of national Israel, which has not yet taken place. The only thing that has taken place in the present age is the salvation of a small remnant of Israel.

And it will not happen until then. If so, how can Israel be saved when Christ comes unless they convert *after* or *at* his Coming, and then begin to live a new life?

This is most definitely how Jewish believers perceived it in the 1st generation of Jewish believers. They expected Jesus to come back, shame Israel into repentance, and then bring about a restoration of the nation, replete with all the blessings they were promised, multitudes of children, long life, relief from their oppressors, and great prosperity.

But you don't think such questions are fair. Fine, my message is for others.


You better read it again...

• To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
• One also has to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
• As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
• Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.

 

[WPM]

WPM believes that quoting things only counts as fact when he interprets it. Otherwise, it's just your "opinion." ;)
You're right. Scripture sometimes must be *meditated on.* When we prayerfully seek to understand, there is much more below the surface of a statement of doctrine. There is the need to be "loving" in our approach towards doctrinal discussion.

This is brazen. The informed poster here knows the truth.

Is this what you mean by "loving"?

For you Eternal Life seems to be a concept, a doctrine, rather than a life experience

Are you even a real Christian?

I'm honestly concerned for the state of your soul.

you must be spiritually blind

I'm arguing with someone who has no sense of discernment!

You just seem to be a little more open--angry, paranoid perhaps

How long have you been hood-winking people like this?

Like the carnal person that you are

you've proven yourself to be incorrigible, unteachable, and narcissistic. You seem to be looking for followers, for confirmation that you're right. Why else would you make this an idol?

I lose interest in reading the rest of your trash talk.

It's a work of your own, and not a work of the Lord.

What kind of weird cult do you belong to that you don't believe basic Christian doctrine? Surely you don't belong here, spreading heresy among Christians

I stand by all of my statements because they're true. And although they're true, that you're a very carnal Christian, who makes me wonder if he isn't in some kind of false Christian cult, I keep trying to reach out in fellowship.

I can't imagine why you think he's a "saint?" He cultivates followers--I know the type, and yes--I have a gift of discernment.

You just seem to lay these things on the shelf when discussing your idol, Amillennialism.

Amil is his idol, put quite simply. Yes, that's my opinion

Why else would you make this an idol?

You can sometimes tell that someone is off track and not aligned with the word of God. Their rage is evidence of that fact. Their obsessive idolization of their doctrines indicate that somewhere along the way they've gotten off track, gotten lost, and now find themselves groping in the dark

You try to create carnal divisions in the church to preserve your idol, Amil?

You just seem to lay these things on the shelf when discussing your idol, Amillennialism.

I just have concerns about the side effects of being an Amil.

This goofball has been told this repeatedly

You dummy!

 

[WPM]

I said mediate on it. If you do, perhaps you will understand.

Exactly! Premils have nothing! I rest my case!

 

[MatthewG]

Thank God for Jesus Christ!