Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

Still, you didn't confirm what I said. You extend your bad manners. There's nothing wrong with making assumptions if they are questions. What's bad is if someone has the answers and refuses to give them.

No, you made the false assumption without ascertaining the facts, as you do.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I didn't say that. I was intimating that the NT was the fuller revelation. Most enlightened Christians except that.

Okay, so OT verses are okay. I was just checking.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Those who say Jesus is not coming back to earth are denying what he said. And they are denying the OT Prophets who predicting a Messianic Kingdom is coming.

It’s kind of funny when you consider that the Jews always knew there would be a literal rule some day and rejected Jesus since He didn’t come that way at that time and those who did accept Jesus reject the literal rule that the Jews still await and will see…

 

[Randy Kluth]

Show us Scripture please. All i am getting is your opinions.

You make the mistake of thinking the giving of Scriptures are not opinions, as well. You use Scriptures, and yet may misinterpret them because your *opinion* is that they mean such and such. A person often *must* explain what he thinks the Scriptures mean.

But I agree with you if someone shares "opinions" without having any explicit Scriptural references in mind, and is unwilling to share them.

You also claim to not be interested in links and outside sources. And yet you quote Church Fathers all the time as if they aren't your "opinion" of what they mean. Quite frankly, they are your opinions of what they mean.

He's not coming back to a corrupt earth plagued by sin and sinners, deception and being deceived, crying and dying, disease and decay, war and terror, Satan and his devils as you argue. He's not coming back to a corrupt earth that is increasingly overrun by wicked men in their billions. He's coming back to a perfect pristine arrangement that has been purged of all the bondage of corruption. Those who populate it must be glorified because it is a glorified earth.

You refuse to prove that anybody, including Premills, believe what you infer they believe, that the Millennial Age will be "corrupt" and "goat-infested." You've already shown that you share opinions without proof or quotes. Repeating your opinions or characterizations will not make them true. Your inability to prove this renders all future claims about this worthless. Even worse, you are putting false beliefs into the mouths of Premills like myself who *do not believe what you're saying we believe.*

But my primary point is that the Scriptures indicate Christ is coming back *to earth.* I really don't care how many Amills there are, or how long they've believed certain things--I believe the Scriptures. And they are explicit on this. Christ is coming back *to earth!*

It's no wonder that Jesus warned us not to add to nor subtract from the truths of the book of Revelation. Clearly, he anticipated the kinds of things that have happened once people stopped believing in these truths. When Christians stopped believing in the salvation of national Israel and in the 1000 year reign of the Kingdom over the mortal world, interpreting Scriptures became a subjective matter, replete with "symbolic" interpretations. The result has been confusion and discord.

Even worse, the Catholic Church began to believe it *was* the Kingdom of God--not just a temporal form of the Kingdom, but the eschatological Kingdom itself! And Jesus warned his disciples not to believe those who said, "I am the Christ." And Paul warned the church at Thessalonica not to believe those who were teaching the Kingdom has already come, or exists in some form on earth. The Catholic Church has suffered much trouble over its claims to preeminence in the "present" Kingdom.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, you made the false assumption without ascertaining the facts, as you do.

Not interested in worthless exchanges.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh my goodness--it's much easier than that, though I agree with you. Jesus' apostles were told that he would return just as he left. In other words, as he left the earth for the clouds of heaven he will return with the clouds to earth. Is that explicit or what? ;)

Those who say Jesus is not coming back to earth are denying what he said. And they are denying the OT Prophets who predicting a Messianic Kingdom is coming.

I don't claim to know whether his coming to earth is purely temporary or what? I personally believe his coming is strictly for the establishment of Christianity in Israel and for reviving Christianity across the earth. But how he does that I don't know. He may only make a "cameo appearance," and then return to heaven, allowing evangelists on earth to continue the work of building the Church?

What I do believe is that due to the resistance of Satan and evil men the Church program has never been completed as God intended. God promised Abraham Christian Israel and Christian nations. And this was promised to be "forevermore," with no more oppression from pagan nations.

That hasn't happened yet. So Jesus is coming back to earth to make that happen on earth. He may not remain here, but may return to heaven with his glorified Church. But these things are "above me" right now. I hope to know more....

You have shocked me quite a bit. It’s so rare to come across a brother who knows he doesn’t understand it all but hopes God will show him more. The norm is to have conversation with men who don’t know they don’t understand it all. So you gave me a bit of a shock there!

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have shocked me quite a bit. It’s so rare to come across a brother who knows he doesn’t understand it all but hopes God will show him more. The norm is to have conversation with men who don’t know they don’t understand it all. So you gave me a bit of a shock there!

Sister, I'm very happy that you agree with me it's a good thing to remain humble about what we think we "know." ;) Have a nice day! :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

It’s kind of funny when you consider that the Jews always knew there would be a literal rule some day and rejected Jesus since He didn’t come that way at that time and those who did accept Jesus deny the literal rule that the Jews still await and will see…

Great point! And I agree--the Jewish believers never disowned what I call "the Jewish Hope," the Hope of Israel for a Messianic Kingdom.

And you're right. The Jews rejecting Jesus were disappointed that he did not immediately defeat the Romans and establish God's Kingdom. He had to fulfill the prophecy of the "Suffering Servant," and be crucified, atoning for our sins.

But Jesus never denied he was coming back to save both Israel and many nations. On the contrary, his role as Messiah was to provide atonement for them precisely so that these things can be fulfilled at his 2nd Coming.

The typical comeback for this has been the complaint, "But Jesus said he was not coming with observation!" But that was how it was at his 1st Coming, that he did not come to immediately establish his Kingdom. He certainly did not, in this, deny that he was going to establish an "observable" Kingdom at his 2nd Coming.

Luke 19.11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

 

[WPM]

I believe in faith He did, those looking for him and waiting saw him. There is just no record of it.

Who was waiting and saw Him?

 

[MatthewG]

It's no wonder that Jesus warned us not to add to nor subtract from the truths of the book of Revelation. Clearly, he anticipated the kinds of things that have happened once people stopped believing in these truths. When Christians stopped believing in the salvation of national Israel and in the 1000 year reign of the Kingdom over the mortal world, interpreting Scriptures became a subjective matter, replete with "symbolic" interpretations. The result has been confusion and discord.

This is true, especially with my belief system as it stands coming from a perspective of all things coming to fruition of the coming of Christ in the past, which I believe by faith did happen, and Christ is with believer now today on earth, by the Spirit of Christ, the Kingdom of Heaven which resides in the heart of believers, and the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Great point! And I agree--the Jewish believers never disowned what I call "the Jewish Hope," the Hope of Israel for a Messianic Kingdom.

Yes. It’s a partial blindness, not a complete blindness.

 

[MatthewG]

Who was waiting and saw Him?

Believers in that time. Those who chose to believe, there is also a good indication here.

Revelation 7

New International Version

​

144,000 Sealed​

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

The Great Multitude in White Robes​

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”

 

[MatthewG]

11 Bible verses about Waiting For The Second Coming

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

Here is a bunch of other scriptures, from the letters written for them at that time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes. It’s a partial blindness, not a complete blindness.

Yes, Jesus even told his Disciples, when they were still under the Law, to do what the teachers of the Law said, but not what they did. In other words, in many things the teachers of the Law were correct, though certainly not in all things. The things they were correct on were to be acknowledged. But their major problem was that they didn't do more than the externals of observing the Law. Their inward spirituality and morality were lacking.

Matt 23.1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Compromised Christians are guilty of the same. They know a lot of Scriptures, and faithfully teach many truths. But they have no love, and do not exhibit the testimony that God requires with His teaching. We must always be aware of this, and try to maintain the love of God in all of these discussions, amen? :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

What's nonsensical is that this doesn't depict Premill at all. It may be the beliefs of many individual Premills all mixed together to make an incoherent picture of what Premills in general do *not* believe! ;)

I do not need to prove this. It goes without saying. It's telling that there is no quote to substantiate what you think "Premills believe." ;)

Yes, @WPM does this a lot. He builds a strawman and then knocks it over.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hi jeff,

So are saying that when the Lord comes, in one day He will deliver Israel, bring vengeance upon the rebellious, judge the sheep and goats, have living water flow out to the polluted waters, have the trees grow fruit for medicine, (Ez. 47: 8 - 12, Zech. 14: 8) the nations go up to Jerusalem to worship the king at the feast of tabernacles, the lion laying down with the lamb on God`s holy mountain, and then Satan locked up and then released to come against Jerusalem (again), & on an on.....IN ONE DAY!!!!!

I know, right?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Show us Scripture please. All i am getting is your opinions.

Kettle meet pot.

 

[WPM]

Believers in that time. Those who chose to believe, there is also a good indication here.

Revelation 7

New International Version

​

144,000 Sealed​

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

The Great Multitude in White Robes​

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”

That does mention AD70. You force that into the text. Now, will you answer my question?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can I guess. I just thought everyone would know the scriptures I was referring to.

We do. :)

 

[WPM]

Great point! And I agree--the Jewish believers never disowned what I call "the Jewish Hope," the Hope of Israel for a Messianic Kingdom.

And you're right. The Jews rejecting Jesus were disappointed that he did not immediately defeat the Romans and establish God's Kingdom. He had to fulfill the prophecy of the "Suffering Servant," and be crucified, atoning for our sins.

But Jesus never denied he was coming back to save both Israel and many nations. On the contrary, his role as Messiah was to provide atonement for them precisely so that these things can be fulfilled at his 2nd Coming.

The typical comeback for this has been the complaint, "But Jesus said he was not coming with observation!" But that was how it was at his 1st Coming, that he did not come to immediately establish his Kingdom. He certainly did not, in this, deny that he was going to establish an "observable" Kingdom at his 2nd Coming.

Luke 19.11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

Where is this so-called "Jewish Hope" - "the Hope of Israel for a Messianic Kingdom" taught in the NT?