Another Premillennial absurdity

[MatthewG]

That does mention AD70. You force that into the text. Now, will you answer my question?

What is the question exactly?

What happens to you as a believer now who is free in Christ to choose what he desires to do with his own life being totally accountable and responsible before God when you pass away from this life and will be judged exactly like myself upon death, going on the the spiritual realm of God?

It's up to you, as a believer now today you are part of the Kingdom of God, and the final end of life the hope should be to going there to be with Him, the family of believers, having a life lived for the Lord Jesus Christ, all by the spirit friend.

I shared, 11 bible verses about those waiting on the second coming, and also shared a specific group of people who I would deem as the the bride of Christ, who went through alot of enduring trials.

Are there still trials people face today? Sure there is especially living for Christ over their ownself. I myself have trouble with it, but God has not taken my life away yet, sir.

 

[WPM]

Yes, @WPM does this a lot. He builds a strawman and then knocks it over.

I am just exposing Premils dirty little family secret that they do not like to admit and which they like to cover up.

This exposure has been very effective over the years.

 

[WPM]

I do

What is the question exactly?

What happens to you as a believer now who is free in Christ to choose what he desires to do with his own life being totally accountable and responsible before God when you pass away from this life and will be judged exactly like myself upon death, going on the the spiritual realm of God?

It's up to you, as a believer now today you are part of the Kingdom of God, and the final end of life the hope should be to going there to be with Him, the family of believers, having a life lived for the Lord Jesus Christ, all by the spirit friend.

I shared, 11 bible verses about those waiting on the second coming, and also shared a specific group of people who I would deem as the the bride of Christ, who went through alot of enduring trials.

Are there still trials people face today? Sure there is especially living for Christ over their ownself. I myself have trouble with it, but God has not taken my life away yet, sir.

I do not do links. You are obviously out of your depth if you cannot explain what you personally believe. This is heresy.

 

[MatthewG]

Whatever you choose it's all on you, just as it is on me.

May God get the glory and praise, and His Son Jesus Christ, and may the spirit guide people to truth about everything that Lord Jesus Christ has done for all the world.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We do. :)

Okay, good. That’s what I thought! I was in my head like…well, no matter what your particular eschatological Frankenstein looks like, everyone knows the verses…lol

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s kind of funny when you consider that the Jews always knew there would be a literal rule some day and rejected Jesus since He didn’t come that way at that time and those who did accept Jesus reject the literal rule that the Jews still await and will see…

It’s like…one group couldn’t see any of the spirit and the other group can’t see any of the literal…
Its so odd it should be this way!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where is this so-called "Jewish Hope" - "the Hope of Israel for a Messianic Kingdom" taught in the NT?

Jesus taught that the Kingdom is "near." And the same theme is followed in the NT letters.

Rom 13.11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

What "Salvation" was Paul speaking of? He explained in Rom 11 that though salvation has already come to the Gentiles, Israel's future salvation will take place at the Coming of Christ.

Rom 11.11 salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious... 25
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This is NT teaching, brother. Many Gentile nations have experienced salvation in the present age, but Israel, as a nation, has not. A small remnant of Jews have entered into salvation, but the full nation has not. They have not yet entered into their full political salvation, which will result in their entry into the New Covenant of Christ. Jer 31.31

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, @WPM does this a lot. He builds a strawman and then knocks it over.

I've tried to sort of make friends with him several times. He's hardcore into arguing Amill--take no prisoners. His choice.

I got tired of his constant false claim that Premills see the Millennial world as "corrupt" and "goat-infested." I knew he liked quotes--not links. So I asked him for a quote to prove his point. Zero, nada, nothing! He has zilch with respect to providing quotes for a claim he has made about Premill beliefs for years!

His characterization of Premill beliefs is strictly his own "opinion," which is something he constantly rails against. Against his own self-stated hostility for "opinions," as opposed to *quotes,* he constantly asserts a false representation of Premill beliefs, doubles down, and triples down on it...all without quotes.

His view is his own *characterization* of what he feels Premill beliefs imply. But they are not in fact what Premills say in any explicit way. He is welcome to characterize things from his pov, but not to misrepresent what Premills believe.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where is this so-called "Jewish Hope" - "the Hope of Israel for a Messianic Kingdom" taught in the NT?

Actually, it is. Meditate on Luke 1:67-80

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am just exposing Premils dirty little family secret that they do not like to admit and which they like to cover up.

This exposure has been very effective over the years.

As someone else said, if you are going to critique a Premil you need to quote the writing of a proponent of Premillennialism.

 

[WPM]

Jesus taught that the Kingdom is "near." And the same theme is followed in the NT letters.

Rom 13.11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

What "Salvation" was Paul speaking of? He explained in Rom 11 that though salvation has already come to the Gentiles, Israel's future salvation will take place at the Coming of Christ.

Rom 11.11 salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious... 25
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This is NT teaching, brother. Many Gentile nations have experienced salvation in the present age, but Israel, as a nation, has not. A small remnant of Jews have entered into salvation, but the full nation has not. They have not yet entered into their full political salvation, which will result in their entry into the New Covenant of Christ. Jer 31.31

Rom 11 does not mention or describe a future millennium in any way. It is wrong to say otherwise. It simply tells us that God is "able" to bring a remnant of Israel into the good olive tree. We all believe that. But, that in no way suggests this is going to happen after the second coming. That is you forcing your bias (and faulty) beliefs into Scripture again. That is called: adding onto Scripture. You seem to be so married to your Premillennialism that you see it everywhere it does not exist. I will take this response as an admission that you have nothing.

 

[WPM]

I've tried to sort of make friends with him several times. He's hardcore into arguing Amill--take no prisoners. His choice.

I got tired of his constant false claim that Premills see the Millennial world as "corrupt" and "goat-infested." I knew he liked quotes--not links. So I asked him for a quote to prove his point. Zero, nada, nothing! He has zilch with respect to providing quotes for a claim he has made about Premill beliefs for years!

His characterization of Premill beliefs is strictly his own "opinion," which is something he constantly rails against. Against his own self-stated hostility for "opinions," as opposed to *quotes,* he constantly asserts a false representation of Premill beliefs, doubles down, and triples down on it...all without quotes.

His view is his own *characterization* of what he feels Premill beliefs imply. But they are not in fact what Premills say in any explicit way. He is welcome to characterize things from his pov, but not to misrepresent what Premills believe.

Not true! This is the standard Premil belief. What is more, you admitted it. I highlighted that, but you ducked around it.

You said:

"I of course admit that there are mortals with a Sin Nature in the Millennium. Glorified Christians rule over them in this time period, and restrain the open rebellion of the Sin Nature against God."

 

[WPM]

Actually, it is. Meditate on Luke 1:67-80

Dare to quote it and highlight where this is taught?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rom 11 does not mention or describe a future millennium in any way. It is wrong to say otherwise.

Wrong?? What you mean is that you disagree with Premills in their interpretation of things.

Rom 11 mentions that Salvation takes place at, and not before, Christ's 2nd Coming. This is the salvation of national Israel, which has not yet taken place. The only thing that has taken place in the present age is the salvation of a small remnant of Israel.

And it will not happen until then. If so, how can Israel be saved when Christ comes unless they convert *after* or *at* his Coming, and then begin to live a new life?

This is most definitely how Jewish believers perceived it in the 1st generation of Jewish believers. They expected Jesus to come back, shame Israel into repentance, and then bring about a restoration of the nation, replete with all the blessings they were promised, multitudes of children, long life, relief from their oppressors, and great prosperity.

But you don't think such questions are fair. Fine, my message is for others.

It simply tells us that God is "able" to bring a remnant of Israel into the good olive tree. We all believe that. But, that in no way suggests this is going to happen after the second coming. That is you forcing your bias (and faulty) beliefs into Scripture again. That is called: adding onto Scripture. You seem to be so married to your Premillennialism that you see it everywhere it does not exist. I will take this response as an admission that you have nothing.

You better read it again...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not true! This is the standard Premil belief. What is more, you admitted it. I highlighted that, but you ducked around it.

You said:

"I of course admit that there are mortals with a Sin Nature in the Millennium. Glorified Christians rule over them in this time period, and restrain the open rebellion of the Sin Nature against God."

I ducked around nothing. It's you who have repeatedly avoided providing any Premil belief, old or new, that states, unequivocally, that the Millennial earth will be "corrupt" and "goat-infested." I've got nothing but silence from you. So you divert to other things.

Let me be clear about this so nobody is fooled by your claims. Premills generally believe that the Millennial earth will be peopled by *mortals* with a Sin Nature. That is the definition of "mortal," ie someone who has a Sin Nature and who will therefore die.

There has never been any mystery about this. So you seem to be trying to divert away from your complete failure to prove your stated belief, that Premills teach a "goat-infested world."

Anybody reading this can discern the difference between a mortal population that is under Satan's influence and a mortal population that is not under Satan's influence. The present world exists under the rule of Satan. The Millennial world will exist without Satan's influence and incitement.

 

[jeffweeder]

This is true, especially with my belief system as it stands coming from a perspective of all things coming to fruition of the coming of Christ in the past, which I believe by faith did happen, and Christ is with believer now today on earth, by the Spirit of Christ, the Kingdom of Heaven which resides in the heart of believers, and the Holy Spirit of God.

Hi again Matthew.
Paul and Peter etc were filled with the Spirit, but they wrote letters long after this infilling informing us of his second coming.
The second coming could not have happened in the past as it was comparable to Noah's flood, only worse than that.

Matt 24
21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you [during the great tribulation], ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones). 25 Listen carefully, I have told you in advance.


35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].


No event has happened like that. If it had then surely the Elect survivors would have written about it.


Read Jesus own words in Matt 25:31- to see what he will do to the sheep and the goats when he comes a second time.
We sheep have clearly not inherited what God prepared from the foundation of the world (Eden)
God bless

 

[Randy Kluth]

As someone else said, if you are going to critique a Premil you need to quote the writing of a proponent of Premillennialism.

WPM is failing to provide quotes to prove his misrepresentative remarks, but feels content trying to negate anything Premills say by characterizing them as inept."

I have nothing against him, except that the tools he uses are carnal, and tend to create division and strife. I actually think WPM has a "root of bitterness." I hope other Amills here, who I think are fine Christians, will see through this, and avoid his style of disagreement.

I'm not confident of that, however. Some of them have told me, confidently, that they think WPM is the greatest think since the invention of the wheel. ;)
Just my sense of things...

 

[CadyandZoe]

Dare to quote it and highlight where this is taught?

I said mediate on it. If you do, perhaps you will understand.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, @WPM does this a lot. He builds a strawman and then knocks it over.

What does that mean? I’ve heard many times, “oh that’s just a straw man” but what does it MEAN?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I said mediate on it. If you do, perhaps you will understand.

WPM believes that quoting things only counts as fact when he interprets it. Otherwise, it's just your "opinion." ;)
You're right. Scripture sometimes must be *meditated on.* When we prayerfully seek to understand, there is much more below the surface of a statement of doctrine. There is the need to be "loving" in our approach towards doctrinal discussion.