Another Premillennial absurdity

[David in NJ]

I am seeing a pattern with you: avoidance is your MO when your beloved Premil is exposed. You waffle round the many contradictions in your position with religious cliches. This is what your fellow Premil Pretrib brethren do.

I refer you back to my last avoided post.

ad hominen

you are falsley accusing

you are bearing false witness in your Post to which i am responding to

The Scriptures cannot lie = Christ is the First Resurrection and upon His Second Coming will HE resurrect the dead in Him and all living Saints will be transformed into His Glorious Image

Any departure, however so slight from the Scriptures leads to error and falsehood = pre-trib rapture, RCC, JW's, Amill's and so on

 

[WPM]

Any departure, however so slight from the Scriptures leads to error and falsehood = pre-trib rapture, RCC, JW's, Amill's and so on

LOL. Yah-dee-dah-dee-dah.

I understand your frustration at not having any support for your teaching with other Scripture but it is your non-corroborative doctrine that belongs with the other Millennialist cults like the JWs and the Mormons. Premil is an extra-biblical doctrine. It enjoys no corroboration as you have highlighted with your ongoing avoidance. I encourage the reader to follow our engagement and they will see your ducking and diving.

 

[WPM]

ad hominen

you are falsley accusing

you are bearing false witness in your Post to which i am responding to

The Scriptures cannot lie = Christ is the First Resurrection and upon His Second Coming will HE resurrect the dead in Him and all living Saints will be transformed into His Glorious Image

Any departure, however so slight from the Scriptures leads to error and falsehood = pre-trib rapture, RCC, JW's, Amill's and so on

In your opinion: are the living in Christ physically resurrected from the dead when Jesus comes - yes or no?

 

[rwb]

You asked = "How can we be part of the first resurrection through Christ physically since our body will not be resurrected immortal and incorruptible until the last day?"

Christ is the FIRST Resurrection = therefore when HE Returns?His Coming/the Second Coming = BOTH the Dead & Living (in Christ) recieve their NEW Immortal Bodies = 1 Thess4:13-18 , 1 COr ch15 , 1 John 3:1-3

This is true David, the living and the dead IN CHRIST shall receive our immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh when Christ comes again! This is not depicting the "first resurrection"! The first resurrection, as you agree is the resurrection of Christ that man must have part in while alive in TIME (a thousand years). How does mankind have part in the resurrection of Christ? It is not through our physical/bodily resurrection that shall come when the last trump sounds that TIME for this earth shall be no more. If man is to overcome the second death he/she MUST have part in the resurrection life of Christ (first resurrection) in TIME before they physically die. What does Christ mean when He says we must be born again to know and enter the Kingdom of God? And "Ye must be born again"? What does Christ mean when He says, "flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"? Can you understand that new birth through the Spirit of Christ in us, is to receive eternal spiritual life through His Spirit in us? We who were "dead" spiritually are made alive by partaking of the Spirit of Christ, which is to have part in Christ's resurrection life.

John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

While being spiritually DEAD in trespasses and sins, we walked according to this world, according to the power of the air, the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. Without being made alive through the Spirit of Christ, we were without life, the children of wrath, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind.

Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

That is why we must be born again, have part in the first resurrection life of Christ to have everlasting life through Him from the moment we are born again. New spiritual birth is a depiction of the first resurrection mankind must have part in before they physically die to overcome the second death.

 

[David in NJ]

This is true David, the living and the dead IN CHRIST shall receive our immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh when Christ comes again! This is not depicting the "first resurrection"! The first resurrection, as you agree is the resurrection of Christ that man must have part in while alive in TIME (a thousand years). How does mankind have part in the resurrection of Christ? It is not through our physical/bodily resurrection that shall come when the last trump sounds that TIME for this earth shall be no more. If man is to overcome the second death he/she MUST have part in the resurrection life of Christ (first resurrection) in TIME before they physically die. What does Christ mean when He says we must be born again to know and enter the Kingdom of God? And "Ye must be born again"? What does Christ mean when He says, "flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"? Can you understand that new birth through the Spirit of Christ in us, is to receive eternal spiritual life through His Spirit in us? We who were "dead" spiritually are made alive by partaking of the Spirit of Christ, which is to have part in Christ's resurrection life.

John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

While being spiritually DEAD in trespasses and sins, we walked according to this world, according to the power of the air, the spirit that works in the children of disobedience. Without being made alive through the Spirit of Christ, we were without life, the children of wrath, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind.

Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

That is why we must be born again, have part in the first resurrection life of Christ to have everlasting life through Him from the moment we are born again. New spiritual birth is a depiction of the first resurrection mankind must have part in before they physically die to overcome the second death.

Peace to you rwb in the Love of the Holy Spirit given to us thru our Lord Jesus Christ

We both believe the SAME Gospel = Amen

We both rejoice in being Born-Again by the Spirit of God thru the WORD which is Christ Jesus our LORD - Amen

We both agree that Christ is the FIRST Resurrection and thru His Resurrection we have come ALIVE unto God by the Spirit - Amen

We both agree that Christ will Come Again and at HIS Coming the dead in Him will be Resurrected and alive Saints will be Transformed.

When Christ Returns/His Second Coming, by which resurrection do the Saints Rise in, the First or the Second?

FYI - i have ended my discussion with wpm since he has entered into falsely accusing

 

[rwb]

You asked: "Why are you trying to force the first resurrection, of which Christ is into the bodily resurrection that shall not be until this age of TIME is no more?"

Why do you not believe the words of Christ = Rev 2:10-11 , Rev ch20 , 1 Cor ch15 , 1 Thess 4:13-18

JESUS specifically said that His Coming(Second) is the FIRST Resurrection - Why would you call Jesus a liar?

amillennialism & pre-trib rapture BOTH force itself upon Scripture

You are not rightly reading the words of Scripture David. Christ does not say that His coming the second time is the first resurrection. I am not calling Jesus a liar, you are not understanding the Scripture and reading your doctrine into the verse.

The martyred souls lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. The first resurrection, according to John is to be blessed and holy, overcome the second death, be priests of God and of Christ, and reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5-6 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How many a thousand years time periods do you think John writes of? For me to read this as you are, I would have to say at least two. A thousand years for those who lived and reigned with Christ, and another thousand years for those who shall reign with Him. Because the martyred souls John sees are in heaven because within a thousand years, or during their lifetime they lived and reigned with Christ. But there are others that shall also reign with Christ during their lifetime who have not yet died, or for that matter have not yet been born. Because we live and reign with Christ in this age of TIME before we die. These are ALL holy and blessed, having part in the first resurrection (spiritual re-birth) in TIME, a thousand years. Both the martyred souls in heaven and the blessed and holy have part in the resurrection of Christ in TIME, so the second death has no power over them.

But the rest of the dead shall not live again until the thousand years are finished. They are the same dead who shall be called to stand before God at the GWTJ to give account of their lives according to what is written in the books and the book of life. They have NOT part in the first resurrection, and therefore have not overcome the second death, so they will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[David in NJ]

You are not rightly reading the words of Scripture David. Christ does not say that His coming the second time is the first resurrection. I am not calling Jesus a liar, you are not understanding the Scripture and reading your doctrine into the verse.

The martyred souls lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. The first resurrection, according to John is to be blessed and holy, overcome the second death, be priests of God and of Christ, and reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5-6 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How many a thousand years time periods do you think John writes of? For me to read this as you are, I would have to say at least two. A thousand years for those who lived and reigned with Christ, and another thousand years for those who shall reign with Him. Because the martyred souls John sees are in heaven because within a thousand years, or during their lifetime they lived and reigned with Christ. But there are others that shall also reign with Christ during their lifetime who have not yet died, or for that matter have not yet been born. Because we live and reign with Christ in this age of TIME before we die. These are ALL holy and blessed, having part in the first resurrection (spiritual re-birth) in TIME, a thousand years. Both the martyred souls in heaven and the blessed and holy have part in the resurrection of Christ in TIME, so the second death has no power over them.

But the rest of the dead shall not live again until the thousand years are finished. They are the same dead who shall be called to stand before God at the GWTJ to give account of their lives according to what is written in the books and the book of life. They have NOT part in the first resurrection, and therefore have not overcome the second death, so they will be cast into the lake of fire.

See Post 1,945 and start there and then i will respond to this - ty

 

[rwb]

You said: "The only way to have life everlasting, even after our body succumbs to physical death is to have part in Christ, because He is the "first resurrection" for those made spiritually alive in Him ."

i have always believed this and have always confirmed this to be TRUTH.

Then I don't understand David? If you understand the life we have in Christ is everlasting from the moment we are born again, why do you show such confusion regarding this spiritual resurrection life we have through Him? If the everlasting life we have through Christ is spiritual, and it is, the first resurrection which Christ is cannot be physical. Why do you insist the first resurrection is physical?

 

[David in NJ]

Then I don't understand David? If you understand the life we have in Christ is everlasting from the moment we are born again, why do you show such confusion regarding this spiritual resurrection life we have through Him? If the everlasting life we have through Christ is spiritual, and it is, the first resurrection which Christ is cannot be physical. Why do you insist the first resurrection is physical?

Dear Beloved in the Lord Jesus Christ,

AMEN to our mutual New Birth in the Eternal Spirit of God by which we are, Now/Today, made Alive in Christ - AMEN

Did the physical body of our Lord Jesus Christ Rise from the grave?

 

[rwb]

Peace to you rwb in the Love of the Holy Spirit given to us thru our Lord Jesus Christ

We both believe the SAME Gospel = Amen

We both rejoice in being Born-Again by the Spirit of God thru the WORD which is Christ Jesus our LORD - Amen

We both agree that Christ is the FIRST Resurrection and thru His Resurrection we have come ALIVE unto God by the Spirit - Amen

We both agree that Christ will Come Again and at HIS Coming the dead in Him will be Resurrected and alive Saints will be Transformed.

When Christ Returns/His Second Coming, by which resurrection do the Saints Rise in, the First or the Second?

FYI - i have ended my discussion with wpm since he has entered into falsely accusing

Yes, I too am glad we have much agreement about salvation. But I think is sad that you seem not to understand that the life we received through the resurrection of Christ is the "first resurrection" man must have part in to overcome the second death. When the saints, both those who are still alive at His second coming, and those saints who have died and return with the Lord shall be bodily resurrected with immortal and incorruptible bodies to meet the Lord in the air. It is called the bodily resurrection, not the second or the first resurrection, but the physical resurrection that shall be when the last trump sounds. Those whom Paul shows are resurrected to immortal/incorruptible physical bodies are all who in TIME, during their lives had part in the resurrection life of Christ, Who is the "first resurrection".

When man who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins is born again, they have part in the "first resurrection" through Christ. Because when we are spiritually made alive in Him we have the benefit of having all that He has. Since He resurrected from death to life, and shall die no more, so too we who have part in Him in TIME before we die have been resurrected to life evermore, and though our body is still destined to die, we, as living souls shall never die. Because we have His promise, whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die.

 

[jeffweeder]

Good Morning,

Time to WAKE UP and drink a Cup of TRUTH = 1 John 3:1-3 is the Second Coming of Christ

His Coming is the FIRST Resurrection = Revelation 2:10-11

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:

Those in Christ have the assurance now of not coming into the judgment of the second death. This assurance does not require a physical resurrection. We have already have passed from death to life...,

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

That is clearly a Spiritual resurrection. Born into a new life.

Jn 5 cont'
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind]. 28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

When Jesus comes again, we are raised bodily to receive our Glorious reward. This is the day of eternal reckoning for all the living and the dead, as 2thess 1 points out.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I too am glad we have much agreement about salvation. But I think is sad that you seem not to understand that the life we received through the resurrection of Christ is the "first resurrection" man must have part in to overcome the second death. When the saints, both those who are still alive at His second coming, and those saints who have died and return with the Lord shall be bodily resurrected with immortal and incorruptible bodies to meet the Lord in the air. It is called the bodily resurrection, not the second or the first resurrection, but the physical resurrection that shall be when the last trump sounds. Those whom Paul shows are resurrected to immortal/incorruptible physical bodies are all who in TIME, during their lives had part in the resurrection life of Christ, Who is the "first resurrection".

When man who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins is born again, they have part in the "first resurrection" through Christ. Because when we are spiritually made alive in Him we have the benefit of having all that He has. Since He resurrected from death to life, and shall die no more, so too we who have part in Him in TIME before we die have been resurrected to life evermore, and though our body is still destined to die, we, as living souls shall never time. Because we have His promise, whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die.

Beautiful words where most are 'True Center' a few just a little off target.

Off-Target
A.) You said: "But I think is sad that you seem not to understand that the life we received through the resurrection of Christ is the "first resurrection" man must have part in to overcome the second death."

True Center = i have firmly declared, always, that Christ is the First Resurrection by which we LIVE unto God in our spirit.

True Center = JESUS said so:
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die" John 11:25-26

True Center = JESUS said so again:
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Which resurrection will these Saints whom Christ spoke to here be part of?
the First or the Second Resurrection?

 

[rwb]

Dear Beloved in the Lord Jesus Christ,

AMEN to our mutual New Birth in the Eternal Spirit of God by which we are, Now/Today, made Alive in Christ - AMEN

Did the physical body of our Lord Jesus Christ Rise from the grave?

Yes, David, we agree He has risen from the grave. Did you notice what Christ says regarding His spirit as He was dying?

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

While it is true that the Lord's body lay dead in the tomb for three days, His spirit returned to the Father in heaven the moment He died. This is true for every human. The spirit in mankind comes from God and in death returns to Him. The question, will our spirit return to God with life, a living soul as John's vision shows us, or will the spirit return without life? The only way our spirit shall return to God a living soul is through the Spirit of Christ in us. This because in TIME, before death we had part in the "first resurrection" life through Christ, and He sent His Spirit to dwell within our spirit forever.

 

[David in NJ]

Those in Christ have the assurance now of not coming into the judgment of the second death. This assurance does not require a physical resurrection. We have already have passed from death to life...,

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

That is clearly a Spiritual resurrection. Born into a new life.

When Jesus comes again, we are raised bodily to receive our Glorious reward. This is the day of eternal reckoning for all the living and the dead, as 2thess 1 points out.

i am, and always have been since i was Saved, FULLY in agreement with these Living words of the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Peace

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, David, we agree He has risen from the grave. Did you notice what Christ says regarding His spirit as He was dying?

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

While it is true that the Lord's body lay dead in the tomb for three days, His spirit returned to the Father in heaven the moment He died. This is true for every human. The spirit in mankind comes from God and in death returns to Him. The question, will our spirit return to God with life, a living soul as John's vision shows us, or will the spirit return without life? The only way our spirit shall return to God a living soul is through the Spirit of Christ in us. This because in TIME, before death we had part in the "first resurrection" life through Christ, and He sent His Spirit to dwell within our spirit forever.

AMEN
100% TRUTH
AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[rwb]

Beautiful words where most are 'True Center' a few just a little off target.

Off-Target
A.) You said: "But I think is sad that you seem not to understand that the life we received through the resurrection of Christ is the "first resurrection" man must have part in to overcome the second death."

True Center = i have firmly declared, always, that Christ is the First Resurrection by which we LIVE unto God in our spirit.

True Center = JESUS said so:
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die" John 11:25-26

True Center = JESUS said so again:
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Which resurrection will these Saints whom Christ spoke to here be part of?
the First or the Second Resurrection?

Since in life they have part in the first resurrection in Christ, they shall also be physically resurrected to immortality and incorruptibility when the last trump sounds that time on this earth shall be no longer.

 

[David in NJ]

Those in Christ have the assurance now of not coming into the judgment of the second death. This assurance does not require a physical resurrection. We have already have passed from death to life...,

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

That is clearly a Spiritual resurrection. Born into a new life.

Jn 5 cont'
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind]. 28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

When Jesus comes again, we are raised bodily to receive our Glorious reward. This is the day of eternal reckoning for all the living and the dead, as 2thess 1 points out.

in case you missed it - YES, AMEN to all that you posted here = this is how i was Born-Again and LIVE unto God = by His Eternal Spirit within me.

i shall never die, even though my physical body may die, my spirit is permanently attached to the Spirit of God and no one can pluck me from the Right Hand of God

 

[David in NJ]

Since in life they have part in the first resurrection in Christ, they shall also be physically resurrected to immortality and incorruptibility when the last trump sounds that time on this earth shall be no longer.

AGREE
Just as you said = "they have part in the FIRST Resurrection in Christ"

AMEN

 

[rwb]

AGREE
Just as you said = "they have part in the FIRST Resurrection in Christ"

AMEN

So why will you not agree the first resurrection is not physical, since you clearly understand who the first resurrection man has part in is? Are you still insisting the first resurrection is physical? Or do you now understand the "first resurrection" is to be made spiritually alive in Christ before we physically die? IOW new birth, "Ye must be born again"?

 

[David in NJ]

So why will you not agree the first resurrection is not physical, since you clearly understand who the first resurrection man has part in is? Are you still insisting the first resurrection is physical? Or do you now understand the "first resurrection" is to be made spiritually alive in Christ before we physically die? IOW new birth, "Ye must be born again"?

AGREE = 100% TRUTH = We must FIRST be made spiritually Alive in Christ BEFORE we physically die.

Were the Saints who Jesus was speaking to in Rev 2:10 born-again/alive in Him?