Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,733
4,441
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I beg to differ. Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Other titles include, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 years+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

Revelation 17:11-13 further enlarges, the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

A plain reading of these passages proves that, whatever the beast truly represents, he/it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation. The beast cannot therefore merely be a last few years end-time phenomenon, as some would have us believe. After all, he existed before John wrote Revelation. We learn through the apostle’s first century testimony that the beast expressly “was” (past tense). In fact, the passage mentions this fact three times (twice in verse 8, and once in verse 11). Therefore, he existed before John. He also existed at the time of John – who said of his day, the beast “is” (present tense). John then explained that the beast would continue after his day, saying it “shall” be (future tense). In fact, Scripture tells us that the beast, and the false prophet, will only finally be destroyed at the all-consummating second coming of the Lord, where they will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). Why would this world system be destroyed at Christ’s coming and then re-emerge in a future millennium as the sand of the sea?

Having said all this, the terminology that follows is strange and appears contradictory, saying, “is not, and yet is.” One could naturally be tempted to reason: the beast either is or else it isn’t, although, this reading plainly says that the beast both “is” and “is not” at the same time. Whilst the import of the reading indicates that the beast existed in John’s day, it would seem to suggest that it did so in a restrained or restricted manner. How else can we marry the two facts that the beast “is” and “is not” at the same time. The system represented by the beast must have been around in John’s day, albeit in a curtailed manner – a bit like a prisoner that has full movement within a prison, although, he is restricted to particular areas at given times and must continually abide by the careful rules and guidelines that govern his movements within the penitentiary. He has freedom – to a degree, but in another hand he is not free to do as he wishes. The bottom line is: the prisoner would be viewed by every sane observer as bound.

The beast “was” because Satan and his kingdom operated long before Christ ever invaded his territory at the first Advent. He is deemed “is not” because, through Christ's successful completion of His Father’s assignment on earth He roundly defeated Satan in his own backyard and spiritually spoiled his goods and influence. Christ instigated the great triumphant global advance upon the kingdom of darkness. This has inflicted great injury and damage upon the antichrist spirit for near 2,000 years. Christ went forth conquering and to conquer through the successful spread of the Gospel to the nations. The fact is the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.

The beast “is not” because Satan no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.
Another reason that the beast "is" when John wrote the book is because one of the beasts heads "is" at that time after five of them had previously fallen (Revelation 17:10). So, it can't be the case that the beast didn't exist or was completely incapacitated at the time John wrote the book, despite being in the bottomless pit (Rev 17:8) because one of its heads "is" at the time. This shows that being bound in the bottomless pit does not result in being completely incapacitated, as premils believe, but rather results in the entity that is bound in the bottomless pit being weakened and restrained in some way.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,012
4,467
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you get your understanding of the timing of Christ's reign by interpreting scripture with scripture? Not at all. Scripture teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6), but you ignore that.

Do you get your understanding of two future judgment days from the scriptures that only speak of one judgment day, such as Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46? No.
Where is Jesus reigning now if He is reigning? Has he taken over teh Fathers throne in Heaven? Is He reigning over earth and allowing all this massive evil?

The Bible speaks of two separate judgments.

One for believer (the bema judgment) and at the end- the great white thronew judgment for the lost.

Just like the bible speaks of two resurrections separated by the Millennial Kingdom!

One before and one after the Millennial.

Revelation 20:4

King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5

King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is only through massive allegorizing to get these passages to mean what they say as written.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LOL. You are always trying to find a way around things. Are death and hell going to be tormented forever in the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Guess what? I already expected a response like this. So no surprise here. That aside, what you brought up hardly explains how the fp can get taken, cast into the LOF still alive, then tormented forever. In what way does being alive have to do with false religion? Why bring that up? Why not just say both were cast into the LOF and leave the 'alive' part out of it? I can tell you why. And that is because both the beast and fp are beings that are literally alive the same way satan is literally alive, the same way God is literally alive, the same way angels are literally alive, and the same way humans are literally alive. And if you can't even discern something as simple as that, that both the beast and fp are living beings, you then want us to believe that you are understanding Revelation 20 correctly but Premils aren't?
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,527
4,177
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Guess what? I already expected a response like this. So no surprise here. That aside ...
I don't believe you. But, regardless, answer his point, instead of saying you expected it.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,527
4,177
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Guess what? I already expected a response like this. So no surprise here. That aside, what you brought up hardly explains how the fp can get taken, cast into the LOF still alive, then tormented forever. In what way does being alive have to do with false religion? Why bring that up? Why not just say both were cast into the LOF and leave the 'alive' part out of it? I can tell you why. And that is because both the beast and fp are beings that are literally alive the same way satan is literally alive, the same way God is literally alive, the same way angels are literally alive, and the same way humans are literally alive. And if you can't even discern something as simple as that, that both the beast and fp are living beings, you then want us to believe that you are understanding Revelation 20 correctly but Premils aren't?
Are death and hell going to be tormented forever in the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,527
4,177
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where is Jesus reigning now if He is reigning? Has he taken over teh Fathers throne in Heaven? Is He reigning over earth and allowing all this massive evil?
Premillennialism has a big devil a small Jesus. Amillennialism has a big Jesus and a small devil. Do you really grasp the power that Jesus Christ has over all creation? Do you realize the enormity of His authority and influence? Or do you believe that man or Satan is out of control and that Jesus is just sitting by helplessly watching on? Unfortunately, many Christians today have a misconception of that because of false teaching in regard to end-times. They imagine that the kingdom of God is only a future reality when Jesus comes. Many even say that Jesus is not king now but He will be when He returns at the second coming. They call Him a prince-in-waiting.

They make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees made 2000 years ago with their misguided obsession with (1) racial favoritism, (2) earthly real estate and (3) the idea of a dictatorial Messiah reigning over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. Because of their flawed perception of the kingdom, the Pharisees ended up rejecting Christ.

What many do is, strip Jesus of His sovereign power today (by their faulty theology). They dethrone Him from the right hand of majesty on high. This is convenient for some, because they then have man calling the shots and God reacting to man. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

Revelation 3:7 tells us: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might.

It is all fine-and-dandy you recognizing this intellectually in your mind, but you need to know this experientially in your heart.

This is basically telling us that God is in complete control of our life. He will open the doors as He sees fit and close doors that He doesn’t want us going through.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't believe you. But, regardless, answer his point, instead of saying you expected it.

How did I not answer when I provided my opinion, that if something is cast alive into something, this means this something being cast alive, that it is a living being. False religion is not a living being unless you are meaning that it represents living beings. Maybe then I might agree with you.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,527
4,177
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible speaks of two separate judgments.

One for believer (the bema judgment) and at the end- the great white throne judgment for the lost.

The bema seat judgment?

The bema seat Pretrib propaganda doesn’t hold water and is presented to devotees to support the false theology that the righteous and the wicked are judged at 2 different thrones separated by 1000 years+. Christ, Paul and any that were charged were brought before the same bema seat as the common criminal.

Premils suggest that the bema seat of Christ is a completely different type of judgment seat than the great white throne in Revelation 20. They attempt to separate them by 1,000 years and depict the bema as a seat of rewards for believers alone and the Great White Throne as a judgment seat for sinners alone.

An examination of the usage of the word bema in the New Testament gives us an insight into its real meaning and forbids this differentiation that Premils make. The word is found twelve times in the New Testament. It refers to a judgment seat in eleven of the twelve mentions and on the other reference it is interpreted “to set on” in Acts 7:5, which makes no allusion to a judgment tribunal.

Out of the eleven references to a judgment seat it is referring to a Roman judgment seat in nine of them. Two of them refer to Pilate’s judgment seat when sentencing Christ (Matthew 27:19, John 19:13), the other seven are found in the book of Acts and see different Roman judges sitting on them. Herod is seen sitting on the bema seat in Acts 12:21. Gallio is seen sitting on the bema seat in Acts 18:12, 16 &17. Festus is seen sitting on the bema seat in Acts 25:6, 10 & 17.

In the final two references it is referring to the final judgment of all mankind in Romans 14:10-11 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

If Premils would actually take the time to examine what they profess – namely interpreting the Greek word bema as “rewards” throughout the New Testament – they would quickly see how ridiculous their proposal is. But this is what their doctrine requires in order to convince the masses, who also have likely never taken the time to test the contention.

The great white throne judgment for the lost?

Where does the Bible teach "the great white throne judgment for the lost"? It is not in the text that you quoted! What do you see there at the end of sentence little season is a general resurrection and a general judgment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jeffweeder

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,733
4,441
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where is Jesus reigning now if He is reigning? Has he taken over teh Fathers throne in Heaven? Is He reigning over earth and allowing all this massive evil?
In heaven, of course. And in the hearts of His people (Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ). Your understanding of what it means for Him to reign is flawed.

Do you not accept what the following passages teach?

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Do you deny that Jesus has all power in heaven and in earth now as He said He does? Do you deny that He was put at the right hand of the Father "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with "all things under his feet" while being made "the head over all things to the church"? Do you deny that He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth" as John said He is?

Using your logic God has never reigned over the earth because, in your flawed view, He must control everything that happens in order to be reigning. So, do you claim that God has never reigned over the earth? Is anything out of His control? That's not what it means for Christ to reign. It means that He has authority and power over all beings and all things in heaven and on earth. Nothing can happen without His permission. He has ensured that the gospel has been able to shine light in the world where the word of God was never preached before.

The Bible speaks of two separate judgments.

One for believer (the bema judgment) and at the end- the great white thronew judgment for the lost.
Nonsense. You can clearly see both believers and unbelievers being gathered for judgment at the same time in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. Are those passages in your Bible? Also, Romans 14:10-12 refers to both believers and unbelievers having to bow before Christ and come before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Paul refers to Isaiah 45:22-24 which talks about both believers and unbelievers kneeling before Him.

Just like the bible speaks of two resurrections separated by the Millennial Kingdom!
You are misinterpreting Revelation 20. The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection, according to scripture (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5), so having part in the first resurrection is to have part in His resurrection.

Is the following passage in your Bible?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In your doctrine there are 2 hours coming when some of the dead will be resurrected in each hour, but Jesus said there is only 1 hour coming when ALL of the dead will be raised. Your doctrine blatantly contradicts what Jesus taught, which is that all of the dead will be resurrected in the same hour and all people will be judged at the same time. Why would you not want to base the foundation of your doctrine on clear, straightforward passages like John 5:28-29 to help interpret more difficult passages in highly symbolic books like Revelation?

One before and one after the Millennial.

Revelation 20:4​

King James Version​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5​

King James Version​

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is only through massive allegorizing to get these passages to mean what they say as written.
LOL. I love when premils try to criticize amils for allegorizing scripture. What a joke. You do not take John 5:28-29 literally, so you have no room to criticize others for supposedly allegorizing scripture. You also don't take it literally when Jesus indicates that both the saved and lost will be judged at the same time in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,527
4,177
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How did I not answer when I provided my opinion, that if something is cast alive into something, this means this something being cast alive, that it is a living being. False religion is not a living being unless you are meaning that it represents living beings. Maybe then I might agree with you.
You were trying to argue that the false prophet could not be a system because: how could a system be cast into the lake of fire? That was blown out of the water by Eric showing you that death and hell was going to be cast there.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,733
4,441
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How did I not answer when I provided my opinion, that if something is cast alive into something, this means this something being cast alive, that it is a living being. False religion is not a living being unless you are meaning that it represents living beings. Maybe then I might agree with you.
Why do you take that so literally? Even death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). What does that tell you about how literally you should take the concept of being cast into the lake of fire? Can you explain why you interpret a highly symbolic book like Revelation, which was purposely signified (Rev 1:1)? That means it was purposely symbolized in order that only believers with spiritual discernment can understand it. Yet, you think we should read it no differently than we read a literal, straightforward news article.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are death and hell going to be tormented forever in the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Does this mean that you deny that anyone is tormented in the LOF? The verses in question here, are Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10. The former indicates the beast and fp are cast alive into the LOF. The latter indicates they are tormented for ever and ever.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,527
4,177
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does this mean that you deny that anyone is tormented in the LOF? The verses in question here, are Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10. The former indicates the beast and fp are cast alive into the LOF. The latter indicates they are tormented for ever and ever.
Answer the point please. Stop avoiding.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,733
4,441
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Guess what? I already expected a response like this. So no surprise here.
Yet, you decided to go ahead with your weak argument, anyway? Why?

That aside, what you brought up hardly explains how the fp can get taken, cast into the LOF still alive, then tormented forever.
Where does it say the false prophet is tormented forever? I know some translations say they will be tormented forever, implying that Satan, the beast and false prophet will all be tormented forever, but that is not how it is translated in the KJV.

Revelation 20: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This indicates that the devil will be tormented forever, but does not say that about the beast and false prophet. The way I read it, this is only talking about what will happen to the devil, Satan, and the reference to the beast and false prophet already being there is a parenthetical statement, with the torment referring only to the devil.

In what way does being alive have to do with false religion? Why bring that up?
It's symbolism. Why do you take everything so literally in such a highly symbolic book? That makes no sense. Do you not accept that scripture itself says that prophetic beasts are kingdoms (Daniel 7:23)? Why do you ignore that? If you think the beast is a man then he is very old by now since he existed before John wrote the book of Revelation (Rev 17:8). Can't you see how nonsensical it is to believe the beast is a man? Do you really believe some 2,000+ year old man will be cast alive into the lake of fire? What is this nonsense? Why am I even wasting my time debating this? I don't know.

Why not just say both were cast into the LOF and leave the 'alive' part out of it?
We can only speculate on that, but who cares? Why does that matter? It's symbolism. Why do you insist on taking the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture so literally? It's ridiculous. Why do you need to understand every detail of something in order to believe something? How do you believe anything? Nothing can be proven 100% the way you demand. Why do you believe premil when you can't prove it and there's so many holes in it as Amils like myself have shown you many times? Why can you believe in something like that without 100% proof and 100% understanding of every detail, but not Amil which has far more scriptural support?

I can tell you why. And that is because both the beast and fp are beings that are literally alive the same way satan is literally alive, the same way God is literally alive, the same way angels are literally alive, and the same way humans are literally alive. And if you can't even discern something as simple as that, that both the beast and fp are living beings, you then want us to believe that you are understanding Revelation 20 correctly but Premils aren't?
LOL! Do you expect me to take this seriously when scripture itself says prophetic beasts are kingdoms (Daniel 7:23), which you completely ignore? So, how old is the beast at this point? At least 2,000 years old or so by now right? Since he "was" before John wrote the book (Rev 17:8). You try to criticize me for not discerning what you discern, which is that a 2,000+ year old man will be cast alive into the lake of fire? LOL. Give me a break.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,733
4,441
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does this mean that you deny that anyone is tormented in the LOF? The verses in question here, are Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10. The former indicates the beast and fp are cast alive into the LOF. The latter indicates they are tormented for ever and ever.
Do you deny that being cast into the lake of fire does not imply that whatever is cast there will be tormented forever? Unless you think that death and hell will be tormented forever. If the idea of death and hell being tormented forever supported your premil view, then you would probably believe that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,733
4,441
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Answer the point. Stop avoiding.
He gets bogged down on stuff like this and ignores the explicit, straightforward scripture we use to support our view. He uses things like this as a distraction from his own weak doctrine that he can't support with scripture.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you deny that being cast into the lake of fire does not imply that whatever is cast there will be tormented forever? Unless you think that death and hell will be tormented forever. If the idea of death and hell being tormented forever supported your premil view, then you would probably believe that.

No one is saying, and I'm certainly not, that death and hell are tormented in the LOF. Yet something obviously is, otherwise Revelation 20:10 would not be recording what it does.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This 'are' was apparently added by the translators. So what? How were they to make sense out of the text any other way? Does the following make sense of the text? where the beast and the false prophet

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


These both were cast alive(zao) into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. That's what the text says. Not this instead. These both were cast into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. That's what the text says. Not this instead. And death and hell were cast alive into the lake of fire.

Therefore, it is not reasonable to interpret Revelation 19:20 based on what Revelation 20:14 records. One records being cast into the LOF alive, the other one doesn't. Revelation 20:10 only records the beast and the fp being tormented, besides satan of course, and not death and hell as well. Death and hell is not mentioned in Revelation 20:10. Nor is the beast and false prophet mentioned in Revelation 20:14. Nor is death and hell mentioned in Revelation 19:20. Amils apparently like to conflate things some of the time instead of separating things that don't belong together.
 

Davidpt

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2023
1,448
451
83
67
East Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't believe you. But, regardless, answer his point, instead of saying you expected it.

You don't believe me about what? That I wasn't already expecting Revelation 20:14 as an argument? Of course I was. Revelation 20:14 never slipped my mind. I know what it records. And right after I posted that post, I was then thinking to myself (call me a liar if you want if that makes you feel good or something), watch what happens next, Revelation 20:14 will be used as argument allegedly proving Amil's view of the false prophet. And sure enough, that's exactly what happened.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,527
4,177
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You don't believe me about what? That I wasn't already expecting Revelation 20:14 as an argument? Of course I was. Revelation 20:14 never slipped my mind. I know what it records. And right after I posted that post, I was then thinking to myself (call me a liar if you want if that makes you feel good or something), watch what happens next, Revelation 20:14 will be used as argument allegedly proving Amil's view of the false prophet. And sure enough, that's exactly what happened.
Well, it destroys your reasoning. Hell and death are not people.
 
Last edited: