25 reasons why you should abandon Premillennialism
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Truth7t7
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Answered 2 times, no further response
I Disagree, the scripture doesn't state (He Is In All The Wicked) as you falsely claim, deceiveableness and unrighteousness is in the wicked (In Them That Perish) not the (Man Of Sin) as you falsely claim
(In Them That Perish) describes those who are filled with deceivableness and unrighteousness and have denied the truth to be saved, as you bend, twist, and tear the simple truth before your eyes to suit the reformed preterist eschatology
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Truth7t7
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I Disagree, scripture clearly states the seven symbolic heads are interpreted as seven literal mountains, notice the giant (Period) at the end of verse 9, the sentence (Ends) verse 10 begins with (And)
Scripture doesn't state the seven heads are seven mountains which are seven kings as reformed preterist eschatology falsely teaches
Jerusalem is the woman, and Jerusalem sits on seven literal mountains, (The Beast) is the king that has "not yet come", he will be given a short time to continue 42 months as Revelation 13:5 below clearly teaches
Revelation 17:9-10KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Revelation 13:5KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
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John's use of "a man" as a noun in Revelation:
In every instance, "a man" means "any man", not a particular man as you erroneously believe.
Revelation 4:7
And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Revelation 9:5
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 21:17
And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
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You actually reinforce my arguments by your avoidance. It is there for all to see! The 7 heads belong to the beast. They belong to his body. How can a literal man embody 7 literal mountains? This is totally absurd! The whole imagery (including the beast) is symbolic.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Why are you basing this interpretation on "John's day"?
Are you that much against a future interpretation, that you cannot even figure out who the 7 kingdoms even are?
This "John's day" is today. The Second Coming could happen any moment. Why are you stuck in the past?
There are still two future kingdoms, because the world has been in the 6th kingdom since the Reformation. The 5th kingdom ended at the Reformation. The 4th kingdom was Rome and it was only in the first half of it's existence in the first century.
This 7 headed dragon, beast of the sea , and scarlet covered beast is the history from Daniel until the Second Coming. And even then the third part of the stars were cast out before the Flood. The reason they are even mentioned is that at the 5th Trumpet they were all released from the pit they had been chained up in, for thousands of years.
The 7th Kingdom was declared at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 11:15
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
Now you know why Satan is the 8th kingdom, when there were only 7 heads. The 7th Kingdom is not part of the 7 heads of this coalition between earthly kingdoms and Satan. The 7th Kingdom being announced, is then followed by an explanation that Satan may be given control of the earth, after the final harvest, because there are still souls that will reject Satan, and turn to God not harvested at that point. This is where Daniel 9:27 steps up and interrupts the 7 day celebration of the 7th Trumpet. After 3.5 days of the 7th Kingdom, Satan may be handed the throne in Jerusalem, not the GWT that Amil think exists as the only throne, at the Second Coming.
If there is not an 8th kingdom, then the 7th Kingdom will continue to rule the earth for a thousand years contrary to Amil thought processes, without the AoD happening for 42 months. Amil claim the 7th Kingdom only lasts for 7 days and then heaven and earth pass away. Actually Amil refuse to even acknowledge the days of the 7th Trumpet is a week long celebration, even though Jesus is confirming the Atonement Covenant with the many for a set of 7days.
Daniel 9 and the promises of verse 24 and the AoD of verse 27 go hand in hand with time up during the days of the 7th Trumpet. And you think this means John's day, how?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The number is the number of Adam. It never says the man is living on the earth. It just says:
"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
3 things mentioned:
A mark.
The name of the beast.
The number of his name.
The number of his name does not mean the beast is a man. The point is the beast and mankind have the same name. The name is Adam.
Adam represented all mankind from the day Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden.
The beast is not a man nor Adam. The beast is the image brought to life by Satan in the image of mankind and thus given the name Adam.
This created entity is Satan's replacement of God's mankind. Satan cannot even come up with a unique antichrist being. Satan still molds this beast into representing mankind.
The only human in this trio is the FP. The FP is the "mouth" of the 7 headed beast. This 7 headed scarlet colored beast, the dragon represents human government related to Israel since Daniel and the first kingdom, Babylon. The FP is the human spokesman.
Satan is the only entity who has always been around stirring up trouble generation after generation already at work misguiding the Greeks and Romans as the third and fourth kingdoms of the first centuries of both BC and AD.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
@WPM I doubt you ever were a Premillennialist based on your own studies of scripture. Likewise, I doubt you "became an Amillennialist" based on your own studies of scripture. This is evidenced by the fact that, like all Amillennialists, all the following scriptures are what you either have to ignore, or corrupt the meaning of in order to maintain a non-literal thousand years which commenced thousands of years ago:-
In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world." The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.
"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."
If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:
Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).
Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.
Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).
THE DESTRUCTION OF SATAN'S WORKS
This is what we have been told about this:
"Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Hebrews 2:14-15.
"And they overcame him (the devil) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11.
The blood of the Lamb speaks of the death of Christ.
"He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil." 1 John 3:8
How?
Like this:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3
1. Satan's works consist primarily in the death that became part of human experience, and the sin that leads to death.
2. The destruction of Satan's works will not last only for a thousand years, only to be "reversed for a short period at the close of the thousand years", as though his works were merely bound for a thousand years.
3. Not only is the devil not more powerful than God, Satan is not even nearly as powerful as the Holy Spirit, and does not need to be 'bound' in order for God to work or for the gospel of the Kingdom of Christ to spread. God is infinitely more powerful than the devil, who can be bound by God at will, at any time. Jesus showed He was able to do this each time He cast out demons, even before His death and resurrection. Satan's power to cause disruption in the spread of God's Kingdom in the world has always been limited to how much God will allow him.
Ask an Amillennialist to produce a scripture that unequivocally states that Satan has been bound, and all they will ever do is produce corrupted interpretations of the above scriptures (and other scriptures besides the above), proving that they are incapable of believing a great deal of what they read in scripture.
"If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." – Revelation 14:9-11
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive in their bodies [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years." – Revelation 20:4
"But the rest [loipoí] of the dead did not live again [anazáō] until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." – Revelation 20:5
Záō = "alive in the body".
Anazáō = “alive in the body again”.
Anástasis = “the resurrection of the body” in the New Testament (without exception).
List of verses containing the word záō:
zaoislife.blogspot.com
List of verses containing the word anástasis:
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Will you ever just believe what you read and study the scriptures yourself instead of interpreting the Word of God in such a way as to clumsily force it to comply with someone else's, or some or other eschatological model?
In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world." The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.
"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."
If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:
Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).
Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.
Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).
THE DESTRUCTION OF SATAN'S WORKS
This is what we have been told about this:
"Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Hebrews 2:14-15.
"And they overcame him (the devil) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11.
The blood of the Lamb speaks of the death of Christ.
"He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil." 1 John 3:8
How?
Like this:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3
1. Satan's works consist primarily in the death that became part of human experience, and the sin that leads to death.
2. The destruction of Satan's works will not last only for a thousand years, only to be "reversed for a short period at the close of the thousand years", as though his works were merely bound for a thousand years.
3. Not only is the devil not more powerful than God, Satan is not even nearly as powerful as the Holy Spirit, and does not need to be 'bound' in order for God to work or for the gospel of the Kingdom of Christ to spread. God is infinitely more powerful than the devil, who can be bound by God at will, at any time. Jesus showed He was able to do this each time He cast out demons, even before His death and resurrection. Satan's power to cause disruption in the spread of God's Kingdom in the world has always been limited to how much God will allow him.
Ask an Amillennialist to produce a scripture that unequivocally states that Satan has been bound, and all they will ever do is produce corrupted interpretations of the above scriptures (and other scriptures besides the above), proving that they are incapable of believing a great deal of what they read in scripture.
"If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." – Revelation 14:9-11
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive in their bodies [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years." – Revelation 20:4
"But the rest [loipoí] of the dead did not live again [anazáō] until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." – Revelation 20:5
Záō = "alive in the body".
Anazáō = “alive in the body again”.
Anástasis = “the resurrection of the body” in the New Testament (without exception).
List of verses containing the word záō:
Záō
"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4). "God has given...
zaoislife.blogspot.com
List of verses containing the word anástasis:
Resurrection
All New Testament verses talking about resurrection and the resurrection are quoted below this article. M ankind was created to live on t...
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Will you ever just believe what you read and study the scriptures yourself instead of interpreting the Word of God in such a way as to clumsily force it to comply with someone else's, or some or other eschatological model?
We need to piece together this symbolism and align it with history in order to establish its full meaning. Firstly, Rome was one of the four kingdoms Daniel saw. It was also the existing kingdom when John received this prophesy here. John sees five great kingdoms before the one existing in his day (Rome). Three of the five former kingdoms probably refer to Daniel’s kingdoms: Babylon, Media and Persia and Grecia. This leaves two more – obviously subsequent to them. I believe these refer to the Egyptian Dynasty and the Assyria rule.
1. Egyptian empire
2. Assyrian empire
3. Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persia empire
5. Greek empire (five were)
6. Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Revelation)
7. One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
8. The beast.
Simon Kistermaker suggests a slight modification:
1. Assyrian empire
2. Babylonian empire
3. Neo-Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persia empire
5. Greek empire (five were)
6. Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Revelation)
7. One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
8. The beast.
Many commentators see these kingdoms as referring to those who stood against God’s people but also invaded and subjugated natural Israel.
If we are seeing this right then that still leaves two other significant wicked empires after Rome. Whilst we know the last empire is the beast (after his release from the abyss), that still leaves us with the seventh kingdom which appears before end. With the aid of history, we could certainly speculate what the penultimate wicked kingdom is in-between the Roman Empire (in Bible times) and the last wicked unrestrained manifestation of the beast at the end. A popular view that many Bible students and historians hold is that it is the Ottoman Empire. This was certainly one of the greatest empires in history. Moreover, it actually spanned three continents. This in essence was an Islamic Empire? Whilst there have been other evil systems like Fascism and Communism that have arisen in this past hundred years, the only empire to be a direct threat to Christianity since the Roman Empire of the first century has been the Ottoman Empire. This also totally overrun natural Israel.
1. Egyptian empire
2. Assyrian empire
3. Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persian empire
5. Greek empire
6. Roman empire
7. Ottoman empire (???)
8. The beast empire
It could be argued that Christianity significantly wounded the Ottoman Empire. But today it is returning. The Ottoman empire was of course, Muslim. And we see Islam rising again, and with the same goals of a global Islamic Caliphate. It is today, once again, a direct threat to Christianity (and everybody else for that matter).
Could the revived kingdom be Mystery Babylon – a wicked global manifestation of all that opposes God, and a reflection of the evil character of ancient Babylon. Could it be a revitalized Rome, in the shape of the Roman Catholic Church?
The fact that the beast possesses seven obnoxious heads representing seven evil kingdoms throughout time, five of which were already destroyed before John, the sixth was the Roman Empire existing when he lived, the seventh was to appear somewhere between the Roman Empire, and the second coming of the Lord shows the absurdity of the contention that the beast is a man. What human being in history survived submerged below the sea for more than a few minutes? The next thing the literalist will be telling us is that babies really do come from under cabbage plants!
Believe what you want. It makes no difference to me. I know the truth. Because some Premils are so sold on their doctrine, it is unthinkable for them to imagine that anyone could objectively change. Well, guess what? I did. Many are abandoning Premil today. Most Amils on this board are former Premils. There is a major big shift happening back to that position amongst open-minded Bible-believing students.
2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6, Revelation 9:1-3 and Revelation 20:2 prove the abyss became the domain of demons after the 1st Coming of Christ. They show the abyss occupied now by Satan's minions, prior to the last trumpet. Revelation 9:11 also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Of course, the restrain here cannot be physical. After all, Satan is a spiritual being. He is like a dog on a chain. He cannot stop the Gospel going out to the nations since the cross. He once had that power. How can Premils recognize the restraint of part of the demonic host in the pit but not Satan? You cannot divorce them. Their fate is all tied together.
The chain symbolically refers to the spiritual limitations of Satan’s powers since Christ’s first Advent, just like Paul shows the man of the man of lawlessness being “restrained” in his day after the cross (2 Thessalonians 2:6). Few Bible students have any difficulty accepting the spiritual restraint upon antichrist, and his release prior to the coming of Christ, yet they get all funny with the binding or restraint of Satan at the same time.
Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”
Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.
The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.
Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”
This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.
Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.
Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ.
Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound [or deo] him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”
The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man.
Truth7t7
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Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only
"Deceive The Nations" To Battle
The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming
If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign
Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?
Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.
Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle
(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event
(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Are you ready to change the words in Revelation 20:3 to add the words "to battle", as you have just done above (thus adding to scripture, and to the Revelation of Jesus Christ)?
Or will you rather be ready to (one day) let the Revelation speak for itself?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
And Daniel never covered any of those added kingdoms that you all manufacture. Even you claim the beast has only been around for 2300 years. Daniel lived 2500 years ago. The first head is Babylon, and the name is still used in Revelation 17 and 18.
The second head covers the Medes and Persians. The third head covers Greece. The 4th Rome. Rome lasted until the 4th Century, and mixed with the Greeks all the way to the 15th century. The Holy Roman Empire was the 5th kingdom. Daniel's beast stopped existing at the Reformation when the Stone of Christ represented by the church finally crushed that image.
John is not writing about the first century. John is writing about the Second Coming. At the Second Coming, 5 have fallen, one is, and the last head is Satan, the 8th kingdom. In no chapter does John explicitly state a Second Coming. The entire point of the Seals, the Trumpets, the Thunders is the Second Coming. The coming of the Day of the Lord, in which the final harvest has to be carried out before the Day of the Lord can even start.
You may not be Preterist, but you are stuck in the past and attempt to add Egypt and Assyria into the book of Revelation which would make a 9 headed beast. Please quote any verse from Revelation with a 9 headed beast. Revelation was not about the 5th century when western Rome fell and the capital was moved east among the Greek speaking people. The earth has been in the defunct 6th kingdom since the Reformation, not a defunct 8th kingdom since the Reformation making Satan the 10th kingdom after the 7th Trumpet.
After the Second Coming, Satan will miraculously heal the 6th kingdom with the mortal wound, but it will be too late. Revelation 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and even 19 are all post 7th Trumpet events. And the Trumpets are post Second Coming events concerning the final harvest. Jesus and His angels are already on the earth gathering the final harvest per Matthew 13, and Matthew 25 before the 7th Trumpet sounds calling for the end of time for Daniel's 70 weeks, and Adam's 6 thousand year punishment of death and sin. Daniel 9 described Jesus as both Messiah and the Prince to come. A first coming and a second coming. The first coming as Messiah. The Second Coming as Prince. Jesus will be present on earth for both periods of time per Daniel 9. Jesus is the 70th week.
You all are crazy calling the 7th Kingdom "some evil kingdom". Really? Have you left Scripture for human understanding? Revelation 11:15 shows you clearly who is the 7th Kingdom declared when the 7th Trumpet sounds. It is right there in God's Word clear as the symbolism you all get tripped up over.
And unfortunately, yes, per Daniel and John the 7th Kingdom is placed on hold for an additional 42 months of time extended. That is why after time is supposed to have stopped, humans are sealed by God with an expiration mark on their heads or arm. Adam's transgression is stamped as expired, grace has run out, and those marked have been removed from the Lamb's book of life, of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Those with the mark are Satan's loyal worshippers, as the 8th king of the 8th kingdom. Those who have overcome remain part of the 7th Kingdom for a thousand years. Even those beheaded, are resurrected and remain alive for the next thousand years reigning with Christ over their offspring. It is God's Word, that Satan is released after being bound for a thousand years, not some trumped up notion by humans, like making up Egypt and Assyria as part of Daniel and Revelation where neither are mentioned.
So explain again why a sixth kingdom would not happen between the Reformation and Second Coming? Even Israel, as represented by the women in Revelation was defunct since 70AD until 1948AD. Ten tribes by Assyria way before Babylon. The point was not to get us to 70AD, and then nothing for 2 millennia, while you all think Satan was bound and then comes back with 3 more wicked kingdoms.
The point is to get us from Daniel to the end, 3500 years. Times, time, and half a time. Your millennium is the times, 2000 years. There were roughly 500 years between Daniel and the Messiah. Some point out 490 years. That is half a time. Then the final time of a thousand years. We are still in Daniel per the mountain kingdom, the church filling the whole earth, and the 5th kingdom of the two feet ten toes ended at the Reformation. The Reformation was good for something. But the image from Daniel 2 never covered the last 2 heads of the dragon and Revelation beast system. You cannot go back way before Daniel 2 and prop up your human understanding. The 6th Kingdom is now because 5 have fallen since the Reformation. Rome still had 300 more years to go after 70AD or even 96AD when John wrote, and the ten toes coverd the next millennium.
Jerusalem was eventually rebuilt but the woman would not rejoin Jerusalem until just recently. That did not destroy the 6th kingdom. What will deal the 6th kingdom a deadly blow is the Second Coming itself. All the works of earth will be burned up at the Second Coming. Revelation points out the 6th kingdom will be miraculously healed. Not the 5th kingdom, as they have fallen long ago. Not the 7th head, as that is Satan, who is of the 7, but the 8th kingdom. The only head left is the 6th head, 6th kingdom. This miraculous recovery only lasting during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.
At the 7th Trumpet, Jesus is declared the King of the 7th Kingdom since Babylon in Daniel's day.
The term "beast" is a symbolic reference. The dragon is the beast in Revelation 12. The beast is still the same representation as the dragon, showing it came out of humanity. Satan also being called a beast as an individual. The other reference to a beast is the image come to life. John never describes nor names a human AC. The image is the beast and Satan's AC. The image/beast replacing Adamkind. Both the first Adam who disobeyed God, and the second Adam, Jesus who obeyed God. Satan is attempting to rid creation of that whole disobedience/obedience relationship with God. Satan wants mankind to relate only to Satan. And Satan is not sitting on the GWT. Satan is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. The glorious throne of the Son of man mentioned in Matthew 25:31.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Deceived to battle is the major reason Satan was never bound yet. Nations would be deceived to battle over and over again between the Cross and the Second Coming. Only during the Day of the Lord will there not be any wars period.
You point contradicts your own belief Satan is currently bound. How could Jesus teach Amil when He told them specifically in Matthew 24 there would be continuous wars and nation against nation all the way to the end? The end comes at the Second Coming, for sure. The end of sin and the wars that sin causes. The earth will have no wars at all while Satan is bound.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Then there's Peter's statement regarding the time coming when they will no longer believe sound doctrine but will heap up teachers for themselves teaching the things that their itching ears want to hear. I would be careful to boast about any great move away from sound doctrine.
Peter and Jude both link the time of the imprisonment of these angels to the days of Noah, and their being put in prison in the abyss at that time is not written about anywhere else in the Bible. The only other book that speaks about that, is the book of Enoch, which places it at the same time.
In Revelation 9 "locusts" are coming up out of the pit. In Revelation 20:2 something is going into the pit, and getting locked up in it.
The way you link Peter and Jude's statements to Revelation 20:2 (which they clearly do not belong with) is once again proof that you are preaching unsound doctrine for the sake of forcing your symbolic millennium to comply with scripture. Terrible hermeneutic. Typical Amillennial hermeneutic.In Revelation 9 "locusts" are coming up out of the pit. In Revelation 20:2 something is going into the pit, and getting locked up in it.
Nonsense. Peter and Jude are both clearly linking the imprisonment of those angels to a time long before the first coming of Christ. So I ask, why, if your Amil doctrine is true, do you need to ignore the context of the scripture and then teach the false doctrine that your brushing aside of the context produces?
2 Peter 4
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their pernicious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness they will use you for gain with well-turned words; for whom judgment from of old does not linger, and their destruction does not sleep.
4 For God did not spare the angels who sinned, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment.
5 And He did not spare the old world, but saved Noah the eighth one, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, He condemned them with an overthrow, setting an example to men intending to live ungodly.
Jude
5 But I intend to remind you, you once knowing these things, that the Lord having delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed the ones not believing.
6 And those angels not having kept their first place, but having deserted their dwelling-place, He has kept in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of a great Day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.
The context says nothing about what took place after Christ came. It's your lie. (Because it is a lie you told).
Nonsense. It says only that they have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. It does not say Satan was there with them.
Why do you lie about what the scripture says?
Proverbs 15:11
"Sheol and destruction ['ăbaddôn] are before Jehovah, Surely also the hearts of the sons of men."
Revelation 9
11 And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon.
In the Revelation you have a star fallen from heaven given the key to the bottomless pit and it does not say that star fallen from heaven is inside it. (unless you want to lie about what the scripture says- as you have done so far in your post I have been quoting).
In Revelation 20:2-3 it says Satan is put into the pit. It says nothing about him coming out.
You've already - how shall we put it - 'adjusted' what the Word of God says in order to attempt to make it comply with Amil, and done so a number of times.
How can Amils take scripture that speaks about certain angels being bound in a certain time and twist what it's saying and the time it happened, which is given by the context, all out of proportion and then say it means Satan was bound with them? You don't even realize that you are saying that Satan was bound in the days of Noah, so determined are you to change what the scripture is saying.
Nonsense. Satan was not married to the angels who sinned in the days of Noah.
Why can't you see how your false claim about just one portion of scripture has had a domino affect on all your other interpretations?
Nonsense. The New Testament does not say that. It says Satan will be bound, not "limited". You are lying about what the New Testament is saying again.
Satan's activity has always been limited to how much God will permit. What are you talking about?
Satan is not more powerful than the Holy Spirit, and He is not more powerful than Christ, and Christ was able to bind Satan over and over at will - and then give His apostles the power to do the same - and the above was all done even before He was crucified - hence - even before you say Satan was "bound for a thousand years so that he is unable to deceive the nations until the thousand years are fulfilled".
You do not even realize in your clumsy 'adjusting' of the meaning of Christ's words that you are actually implying that each time Christ or His apostles cast out demons, Satan was being bound for a thousand years and shut up in the abyss and a seal placed on him so that he was unable to deceive the nations until the thousand years are fulfilled.
That is indeed what you are implying.
There are no reasonable grounds in scripture to come to the conclusion that all the above clumsy adjustments you have made to the meaning of Christ's words, what Peter and Jude wrote about the imprisonment of fallen angels, and everything else you have false claimed, means that Satan was bound at the time of Calvary, shut up in the abyss, and a seal placed on him so that he could - note the reason - deceive the nations no more till the thousand years are fulfilled.
And it's noteworthy that you have not attempted to refute even one of the scriptures I quoted in my previous post which clearly and unambiguously warn the saints about Satan's activity in the world, and the fact that there is not even ONE scripture you can provide which unequivocally declared Satan to already be bound.
All your "reasons" you have given as to why you believe Satan has already been bound is pure conjecture - and they are all the same as every Amillennialist gives every time.
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I recognize your frustration but it is the inspired text that forbids your doctrine. All you have is your slights "nonsense" and "clumsy" to describe your position. Your own words condemn your writings.
You have no answer to the the binding of Satan 2000 years ago by Jesus and his release before the last trumpet.
Truth7t7
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No words have been changed as you "falsely claim" scripture clearly teaches the word (Deceive) in verse 3 is deceiving the nation's to battle, just as verse 8 teaches below, scripture interprets itself
(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
That's total rubbish. You have now added the words "of Armageddon" to the words "to battle" and added the words "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone." to the words below:
The only thing you needed to add to the above words was what is written:
And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Are you ready to repent of adding words to the Revelation, shoving a battle that had already taken place in where it does not belong and does not appear, and giving that battle a name?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Says the one who cannot produce even one scripture that says Satan was "bound" 2,000 years ago to support his claim, but only produces his sheer conjecture produced by pulling other scriptures that have nothing to do with the subject together, all of which comes straight out of the classic Amil text book and say nothing that all Amils haven't already said when they lie about what those scriptures "mean".
Same tired old clumsy and failed attempts at proving the unprovable.
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