25 questions that prove that ancient Chiliasm was a different animal to modern Premil

[Spiritual Israelite]

No misrepresentation whatsoever as you "Falsely" claim, your Johnny come lately, the poster falsely teaches the "He" in Daniel 9:27 below is Jesus Christ

No, he is correct about that. You are severely lacking in discernment regarding this.

You will closely note in giant bold red that the "He" shall make it desolate

As I previously stated, Jesus Christ doesn't make desolation, the future human man will make it desolate

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

For one thing, there are many different English Bible translations and they all translate that verse differently. What you need to keep in mind is that the previous verse says the people of the prince would destroy the city and the sanctuary. So, it is the people of the prince who "make it desolate".

 

[WPM]

Fact is the "He" isn't Jesus Christ making desolation as you claim, and the future human man seen will be on earth to the very "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" as you have been shown several times

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are 2 princes in Daniel 9: (1) Christ the Messiah, and (2) a prince that would oversee the destruction of Jerusalem.

Q. Who are “the people of the prince that shall come”?
A. The Roman soldiers.

The 2nd prince who was responsible for the destruction of the temple and the city was not Jesus. It was the Roman "prince." His people would come and destroy the temple and city in AD70.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One day, I will stand before God in Judgment. He may ask me; Did I understand and promote the Prophetic Word?
I will say YES, with a clear conscience. [see my website, where there are over 800 articles that promote what the Prophesies actually are telling us]

You should only say that you tried. If you say yes, you did, then that would be a lie because you are failing miserably at understanding and promoting the prophetic word properly.

It seems to me that to think Jesus is King over the world now, is a wild Strech of the imagination. and flies in the face of reality.

Tell that to Jesus Himself and to Paul and John as well. You don't have scripture on your side here.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

You are blatantly denying what these scriptures clearly teach.

 

[WPM]

You should only say that you tried. If you say yes, you did, then that would be a lie because you are failing miserably at understanding and promoting the prophetic word properly.

Tell that to Jesus Himself and to Paul and John as well. You don't have scripture on your side here.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

You are blatantly denying what these scriptures clearly teach.

Why would any one deny this, apart from having an issue with the Deity of Christ?

 

[WPM]

One day, I will stand before God in Judgment. He may ask me; Did I understand and promote the Prophetic Word?
I will say YES, with a clear conscience. [see my website, where there are over 800 articles that promote what the Prophesies actually are telling us]

It seems to me that to think Jesus is King over the world now, is a wild Strech of the imagination. and flies in the face of reality.
When Jesus Returns, seen by everyone, THEN He will take up His Kingship and the world will be the place that God always intended it to be.

Is Jesus God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would any one deny this, apart from having an issue with the Deity of Christ?

There seems to be no other reason that he would deny that Jesus is now King over all of heaven and earth except for his denial of the Deity of Christ.

He talked a little earlier about standing before the throne of judgment one day. Imagine standing before Jesus and trying to explain why you denied that He is God. I wouldn't want to be the person trying to explain that. That will not go over well.

 

[Keraz]

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus HAS the power and authority, but has not yet taken it up.
This is quite obvious, as the world is in turmoil as wars, famines and plagues continue unabated.

The unchristian attempts by people here to discredit me, will have adverse repercussions on them.

 

[covenantee]

You misunderstood me. I know you believe that and I lean towards believing that myself. But, what he seemed to be saying (maybe not?) is that you believed that Jesus brought on or carried out the abomination or something along those lines, which is not the case. It was the Roman armies who actually carried out the abomination of desolation. Anyway, just another case of misunderstanding, which is normal here.

He persists in deliberately misstating what I've explained many times. Completely unsurprising.

 

[covenantee]

There are 2 princes in Daniel 9: (1) Christ the Messiah, and (2) a prince that would oversee the destruction of Jerusalem.

Q. Who are “the people of the prince that shall come”?
A. The Roman soldiers.

The 2nd prince who was responsible for the destruction of the temple and the city was not Jesus. It was the Roman "prince." His people would come and destroy the temple and city in AD70.

There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9. He is Messiah. He was in ultimate command and control of the Romans and Jews, who served as His people in executing and accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the nation that rejected Him.

This is three-way corroborated by Scripture, history, and grammar.

 

[WPM]

There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9. He is Messiah. He was in ultimate command and control of the Romans and Jews, who served as His people in executing and accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the nation that rejected Him.

This is three-way corroborated by Scripture, history, and grammar.

Are you saying that the Roman soldiers were commanded by the Lord?

 

[Truth7t7]

There are 2 princes in Daniel 9: (1) Christ the Messiah, and (2) a prince that would oversee the destruction of Jerusalem.

Q. Who are “the people of the prince that shall come”?
A. The Roman soldiers.

The 2nd prince who was responsible for the destruction of the temple and the city was not Jesus. It was the Roman "prince." His people would come and destroy the temple and city in AD70.

You aren't going to take Daniel 9:27 below and place the event in Jerusalem 66-70AD, it surrounds the "Consummation" (The End) and that "POURED" upon the desolate is God's final cup of wrath (The End)

You are no different than the Pre-Tribbers and Millennialist being shown truth, in man's pride of denial, simple, clear, and before your eyes

Add to that your denial of a future great tribulation and a literal human (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) your false teachings are "Dangerous" to the unaware, "Scary"!

Daniel 9:27 The bad guy below that causes Daniel's AOD seen in Matthew 24:15 will be present on earth to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) Future Unfulfilled

Scripture clearly teaches that the event is future, and hasn't taken place in history as you believe and teach

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Revelation 14:10KJV
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus HAS the power and authority, but has not yet taken it up.
This is quite obvious, as the world is in turmoil as wars, famines and plagues continue unabated.

So, is that how you view God the Father as well then? Do you think He has never taken up His power and authority as God since the beginning of the earth since the world has been in turmoil ever since Cain killed his brother Abel?

Your understanding of what it means for Jesus to wield His power and authority is completely flawed. It has nothing to do with forcing people to obey Him as you imagine. It has to do with the fact that nothing happens without His permission. It also has to do with Him being the head of the church and with the fact that the gates of hell can not prevail against Jesus and His church.

The unchristian attempts by people here to discredit me, will have adverse repercussions on them.

I have no concerns whatsoever about that since you have no idea of what you're talking about. You are clearly a false teacher and you have been exposed as such. You blatantly contradict the scriptures I referenced and you could not care less about that. You believe what you want to believe rather than what is taught in scripture.

Tell me, Keraz, do you believe that Jesus is God? A yes or no will suffice.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you saying that the Roman soldiers were commanded by the Lord?

You weren't asking me, but I think his view makes sense and I lean towards agreeing with it even though I don't feel 100% certain about it.

In a sense the Roman soldiers were commanded by the Lord because they carried out His wrath. He didn't directly command them, of course, but there is a sense in which you could look at it as them carrying out His will even if they weren't knowingly doing so.

Another way in which it's possible that the prince in Daniel 9:26 could be referring to the same prince mentioned previously (the Messiah) is in the fact that His people, the Jews (Jesus said He was the King of the Jews - Matt 2:2, Matt 27:11), were responsible for destroying the city and the sanctuary because that happened as a result of them not accepting Jesus as their Messiah.

I used to believe as you do that Daniel 9:26 is referring to Titus or some other Roman leader during the time when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem, but I lean more now towards thinking it's referring to Jesus. I don't personally think it matters that much either way, but it does seem to me that it's referring to the same prince (ruler) the entire time.

 

[WPM]

You weren't asking me, but I think his view makes sense and I lean towards agreeing with it even though I don't feel 100% certain about it.

In a sense the Roman soldiers were commanded by the Lord because they carried out His wrath. He didn't directly command them, of course, but there is a sense in which you could look at it as them carrying out His will even if they weren't knowingly doing so.

Another way in which it's possible that the prince in Daniel 9:26 could be referring to the same prince mentioned previously (the Messiah) is in the fact that His people, the Jews (Jesus said He was the King of the Jews - Matt 2:2, Matt 27:11), were responsible for destroying the city and the sanctuary because that happened as a result of them not accepting Jesus as their Messiah.

I used to believe as you do that Daniel 9:26 is referring to Titus or some other Roman leader during the time when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem, but I lean more now towards thinking it's referring to Jesus. I don't personally think it matters that much either way, but it does seem to me that it's referring to the same prince (ruler) the entire time.

Could be.

 

[covenantee]

Are you saying that the Roman soldiers were commanded by the Lord?

Their immediate commander was Titus. But their ultimate commander was Messiah.

Titus acknowledged that the Roman victory was attributable to Divine intervention.

The destruction of Jerusalem was a Divinely orchestrated event.

 

[covenantee]

Are you saying that the Roman soldiers were commanded by the Lord?

Another way in which it's possible that the prince in Daniel 9:26 could be referring to the same prince mentioned previously (the Messiah) is in the fact that His people, the Jews (Jesus said He was the King of the Jews - Matt 2:2, Matt 27:11), were responsible for destroying the city and the sanctuary because that happened as a result of them not accepting Jesus as their Messiah.

True. And in fact Jewish factions themselves, e.g. the Zealots, were as directly complicit in the destruction as the Romans.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

 

[covenantee]

You aren't going to take Daniel 9:27 below and place the event in Jerusalem 66-70AD, it surrounds the "Consummation" (The End) and that "POURED" upon the desolate is God's final cup of wrath (The End)

You are no different than the Pre-Tribbers and Millennialist being shown truth, in man's pride of denial, simple, clear, and before your eyes

Add to that your denial of a future great tribulation and a literal human (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) your false teachings are "Dangerous" to the unaware, "Scary"!

Daniel 9:27 The bad guy below that causes Daniel's AOD seen in Matthew 24:15 will be present on earth to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) Future Unfulfilled

Scripture clearly teaches that the event is future, and hasn't taken place in history as you believe and teach

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Revelation 14:10KJV
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Still afraid to do the grammar.

Or to learn from Scripture and history.

Debunked again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Could be.

Yeah. Either way, we know it's not referring to some future Antichrist confirming some 7 year peace treaty or any nonsense like that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

True. And in fact Jewish factions themselves, e.g. the Zealots, were as directly complicit in the destruction as the Romans.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

That's interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[amigo de christo]

The Lord is our hope and our salvation . Praise be to the glorious Lord . Let all that has breath praise His Holy Name .