25 questions that prove that ancient Chiliasm was a different animal to modern Premil

[Spiritual Israelite]

One thing I know Is a fact, the events seen below are future, and not fulfilled as you teach and believe

You must have a strange definition for the word "fact". A definition that doesn't exist in reality.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, right now, King Jesus isn't doing such a great job!

It's not surprising that you would say this when you don't even believe He is God, as you revealed recently in another thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But Jesus has not yet fulfilled His role as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, as the earthly ruler of the world. Psalms 2:7-9
He WILL and that is what blows AMillenniumism away.

You don't know what it means for Him to be King of kings and Lord of lords. You are redefining what it means. He Himself said that all authority and power was given to Him in heaven and earth. John said plainly that Jesus IS the ruler of the kings of the earth now.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Revelation 1:and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

No one can do anything without the Lord Jesus Christ allowing it. He has authority over all now, as He said Himself and as scripture teaches elsewhere as well (Ephesians 1:19-23, for example). The reality here is that Amillennialism blows your false teaching away.

Time is really short now, those who grip onto beliefs that conflict with what the Bible says, need to seriously reconsider what they believe and teach.

Please take your own advice because you need to heed it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is true. Perhaps you need to take your own advice also, unless you think you've got it all worked out.

You're such a nice guy, Jeff. Don't ever change. Nonetheless, I have to correct you here. I know you said this to be kind, but let me make it clear that he doesn't "perhaps" need to take his own advice, he definitely needs to take his own advice. :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you come out with stuff like that when the opposite is the truth - and you know it?

Listen to Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:25-36).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Paul joins Peter in relating the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, “he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.

Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.

Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (vv 32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

Great post that he will no doubt completely ignore. But, others who are objective can learn a lot from this post.

 

[Truth7t7]

Perform a grammatical analysis of Daniel 9:27 and tell us who "he" is, in the verse.

The "He" isn't Jesus Christ making abomination and desolation as you falsely claim

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The "He" isn't Jesus Christ making abomination and desolation as you falsely claim

Why are you resorting to misrepresenting what he believes? He doesn't say that Jesus makes abomination. What does that even mean? He is saying that Jesus is the one who confirms the covenant (the new covenant) that puts an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. You do believe that Jesus established the new covenant with His sacrifice and that put an end to the need for the old covenant animal sacrifices, right?

 

[jeffweeder]

You're such a nice guy, Jeff. Don't ever change. Nonetheless, I have to correct you here. I know you said this to be kind, but let me make it clear that he doesn't "perhaps" need to take his own advice, he definitely needs to take his own advice. :)

Yes, he does. Thought I would leave a bit of room for the Holy Spirit to move him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, he does. Thought I would leave a bit of room for the Holy Spirit to move him.

That's a good plan. I will defer to that plan from here on as well.

 

[Truth7t7]

those who grip onto beliefs that conflict with what the Bible says, need to seriously reconsider what they believe and teach.

Keraz is looking in the mirror again

 

[covenantee]

The "He" isn't Jesus Christ making abomination and desolation as you falsely claim

Do the grammar.

Don't be afraid.

 

[covenantee]

Why are you resorting to misrepresenting what he believes? He doesn't say that Jesus makes abomination. What does that even mean? He is saying that Jesus is the one who confirms the covenant (the new covenant) that puts an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. You do believe that Jesus established the new covenant with His sacrifice and that put an end to the need for the old covenant animal sacrifices, right?

Actually, bro, "He" is Messiah throughout the entirety of Daniel 9:27, and in addition to confirming His New Covenant and terminating OT sacrifice and oblation at Calvary, He used the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies (Matthew 24:15; Luke 21:20) to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the nation that rejected Him.

Scripture, history, and grammar comprise a three-way corroboration thereof.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why are you resorting to misrepresenting what he believes? He doesn't say that Jesus makes abomination. What does that even mean? He is saying that Jesus is the one who confirms the covenant (the new covenant) that puts an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. You do believe that Jesus established the new covenant with His sacrifice and that put an end to the need for the old covenant animal sacrifices, right?

No misrepresentation whatsoever as you "Falsely" claim, your Johnny come lately, the poster falsely teaches the "He" in Daniel 9:27 below is Jesus Christ

You will closely note in giant bold red that the "He" shall make it desolate

As I previously stated, Jesus Christ doesn't make desolation, the future human man will make it desolate

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually, bro, "He" is Messiah throughout the entirety of Daniel 9:27, and in addition to confirming His New Covenant and terminating OT sacrifice and oblation at Calvary, He used the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies (Matthew 24:15; Luke 21:20) to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the nation that rejected Him.

Scripture, history, and grammar comprise a three-way corroboration thereof.

Fact is the "He" isn't Jesus Christ making desolation as you claim, and the future human man seen will be on earth to the very "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" as you have been shown several times

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[covenantee]

No misrepresentation whatsoever as you "Falsely" claim your Johnny come lately, the poster falsely teaches the "He" in Daniel 9:27 below is Jesus Christ

You will closely note in giant bold red that the "He" shall make it desolate

As I previously stated, Jesus Christ doesn't make desolation, the future human man will make it desolate

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Afraid to do the grammar.

Debunked again.

 

[WPM]

Well, right now, King Jesus isn't doing such a great job!

One day you will regret saying that.

 

[Keraz]

One day you will regret saying that.

One day, I will stand before God in Judgment. He may ask me; Did I understand and promote the Prophetic Word?
I will say YES, with a clear conscience. [see my website, where there are over 800 articles that promote what the Prophesies actually are telling us]

It seems to me that to think Jesus is King over the world now, is a wild Strech of the imagination. and flies in the face of reality.
When Jesus Returns, seen by everyone, THEN He will take up His Kingship and the world will be the place that God always intended it to be.

 

[Truth7t7]

When Jesus Returns, seen by everyone, THEN He will take up His Kingship and the world will be the place that God always intended it to be.

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)!!!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[WPM]

One day, I will stand before God in Judgment. He may ask me; Did I understand and promote the Prophetic Word?
I will say YES, with a clear conscience. [see my website, where there are over 800 articles that promote what the Prophesies actually are telling us]

It seems to me that to think Jesus is King over the world now, is a wild Strech of the imagination. and flies in the face of reality.
When Jesus Returns, seen by everyone, THEN He will take up His Kingship and the world will be the place that God always intended it to be.

Of course He is king over the whole world.

What are you talking about? Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

In our main text this morning, Jesus is described in Revelation 3:7 as, “he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, bro, "He" is Messiah throughout the entirety of Daniel 9:27, and in addition to confirming His New Covenant and terminating OT sacrifice and oblation at Calvary, He used the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies (Matthew 24:15; Luke 21:20) to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the nation that rejected Him.

Scripture, history, and grammar comprise a three-way corroboration thereof.

You misunderstood me. I know you believe that and I lean towards believing that myself. But, what he seemed to be saying (maybe not?) is that you believed that Jesus brought on or carried out the abomination or something along those lines, which is not the case. It was the Roman armies who actually carried out the abomination of desolation. Anyway, just another case of misunderstanding, which is normal here.