25 questions that prove that ancient Chiliasm was a different animal to modern Premil

[WPM]

Jesus said that wars, etc, would increase as the end of the age got closer.
Seems He forgot to mention that stupidity would too.

Here you go mocking Jesus again. This is a common trait in heretics that deny the deity of Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus said that wars, etc, would increase as the end of the age got closer.
Seems He forgot to mention that stupidity would too.

Keraz, do you deny Jesus was in the beginning, creator of all things, God manifest in flesh as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 1:1-3KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[Keraz]

Jesus was in the beginning, creator of all things,

As Proverbs 8:22-51 and John 1:1-2 plainly say.
Why do you ask? It seems that you and others here are attempting to trap me.
Of course, those who can't prove their weird beliefs, have to denigrate and accuse the messenger.

 

[Truth7t7]

As Proverbs 8:22-51 and John 1:1-2 plainly say.
Why do you ask? It seems that you and others here are attempting to trap me.
Of course, those who can't prove their weird beliefs, have to denigrate and accuse the messenger.

You forgotten 3rd seen below?

Keraz, do you believe Jesus was God manifest in flesh as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Keraz]

You forgotten 3rd seen below?

Keraz, do you believe Jesus was God manifest in flesh as seen below?

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The attempts to denigrate and blacken me, just show that those who are reduced to that kind of response have no proper case for their beliefs.
When Jesus was on earth, He was a human and therefore was not God. Jesus deferred to God the Father.
Before and after His earthly sojourn, He was in heaven, as a part of God. Referred to in Genesis as: US, and THEY appeared to Abraham. Genesis 18:2

 

[Jay Ross]

The attempts to denigrate and blacken me, just show that those who are reduced to that kind of response have no proper case for their beliefs.

And your attempts to denigrate and blacken others also shows the same outcome for you that you have declared in your post against others.

When people take the time to bring correction to us, we all need to heed that correction and go to God for guidance as to how we respond.

Sometimes I find the best response when people respond as you have above is to remain quiet, and let God do the heavy lifting in bringing enlightenment to them.

 

[Truth7t7]

When Jesus was on earth, He was a human and therefore was not God.

I was unaware of your belief described above, I have been posting with Keraz for years

WPM has considered your views concerning the deity of Jesus Christ seen above as being heretical,, and I stand in full agreement with WPM on this one

Im shocked, Hard to believe but true, I thought WPM was out in left field regarding his claim

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[WPM]

As Proverbs 8:22-51 and John 1:1-2 plainly say.
Why do you ask? It seems that you and others here are attempting to trap me.
Of course, those who can't prove their weird beliefs, have to denigrate and accuse the messenger.

Was Jesus the Creator - yes or no?

 

[Keraz]

Was Jesus the Creator - yes or no?

What if I said no? You have already accused me of heresy, try digging yourself a bit deeper.

Jesus was the co-Creator, as Proverbs 8 says. Jesus also; was in the cloud that accompanied ancient Israel, 1 Corinthians 10:4

I was unaware of your belief described above, I have been posting with Keraz for years

So; Jesus was God who got Himself killed?
You just seen to be unable to properly read and understand Bible truths. Jesus was manifested in the flesh, He became human, with all the normal human traits. He went back as a Spiritual being at His Resurrection.

 

[Truth7t7]

When Jesus was on earth, He was a human and therefore was not God.

Many consider your views as heretical, and I wouldn't disagree, hard to believe "Sad"

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Keraz]

Many consider your views as heretical

Try reading and actually understanding Isaiah 53:1-12
AFTER Jesus gave Himself as the sacrifice for our sins, He was given Godly status. As the yet future; King of the earth. Psalms 2:8-9

My beliefs are what the Prophetic Word tells us. That they contradict your beliefs, is your problem.

 

[Truth7t7]

When Jesus was on earth, He was a human and therefore was not God.

Many consider your views as heretical, and I wouldn't disagree, hard to believe "Sad"

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

It is worth highlighting: despite this thread running for a while and despite the opportunity for Premils to prove their ancient heritage, there has been no addressing of the salient questions in the Op. That is because the evidence does not exist. The reality is: Premil was actually birthed by the early heretics. That is where this belief system finds its founding fathers.

Let me remind you of the avoided questions:

1. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Satan being cast down from heaven at the second coming?
2. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the binding of Satan at the second coming?
3. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?
4. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Satan survives the second coming?
5. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the second coming?
6. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked populate a future millennial earth?
7. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that the curse continues unabated on a future millennial earth?
8. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?
9. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that marriage and procreation continue on on a future millennial earth?
10.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?
11.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?
12.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that corruption continues unabated on in a future millennial earth?
13.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus will rule over his enemies for a thousand years after the second coming?
14.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the saints rule over mortal humanity for a thousand years?
15.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the glorified Church will rule in the Millennial era, causing all on earth to submit to the rule of Christ at that time?
16.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the restoring of Israel back to her old covenant theocratic status in a future millennium?
17.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Israel retaking her ancient borders in a future millennium?
18.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan will be released from the bottomless pit 1000 years after the second coming?
19.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as the sand of the sea?
20.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
21.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
22.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second (or 3rd for Pretribbers) rapture when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
23.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second glorification when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
24.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 last days periods?
25.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 new heavens and new earths one with sin, sinners and corruption in it and the other perfect?

 

[Truth7t7]

Op Note

It is worth highlighting: despite this thread running for a while and despite the opportunity for Premils to prove their ancient heritage, there has been no addressing of the salient questions in the Op. That is because the evidence does not exist. The reality is: Premil was actually birthed by the early heretics. That is where this belief system finds its founding fathers.

Let me remind you of the avoided questions:

1. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Satan being cast down from heaven at the second coming?
2. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the binding of Satan at the second coming?
3. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?
4. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Satan survives the second coming?
5. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the second coming?
6. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked populate a future millennial earth?
7. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that the curse continues unabated on a future millennial earth?
8. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?
9. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that marriage and procreation continue on on a future millennial earth?
10.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?
11.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?
12.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that corruption continues unabated on in a future millennial earth?
13.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus will rule over his enemies for a thousand years after the second coming?
14.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the saints rule over mortal humanity for a thousand years?
15.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the glorified Church will rule in the Millennial era, causing all on earth to submit to the rule of Christ at that time?
16.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the restoring of Israel back to her old covenant theocratic status in a future millennium?
17.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Israel retaking her ancient borders in a future millennium?
18.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan will be released from the bottomless pit 1000 years after the second coming?
19.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as the sand of the sea?
20.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
21.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
22.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second (or 3rd for Pretribbers) rapture when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
23.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second glorification when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
24.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 last days periods?
25.Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 new heavens and new earths one with sin, sinners and corruption in it and the other perfect?

Thanks for the detailed work!

Yes the truth before their pre-millennial faces and they deny the simple and very clear facts presented "Sad"!

 

[WPM]

Thanks for the detailed work!

Yes the truth before their pre-millennial faces and they deny the simple and very clear facts presented "Sad"!

Totally agree.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

Irenaeus taught about the Abrahamic fulfilment in Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:2):

Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains stedfast. For thus He said: “Lift up thine eyes, and look from this place where now thou art, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which thou seest, I will give to thee and to thy seed, even for ever.” And again He says, “Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto thee;” and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein … He said again to him as follows: “I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates.” If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord.​

Irenaeus refers to the Abrahamic covenant and spiritualizes it to relate to the Church, not national Israel. Abraham is presented as experiencing this promise with all the people of God throughout the ages when Jesus comes. The ironic thing is: in keeping with the early Amillennialists, the earliest Chiliasts emphasized the New Testament heavenly spiritual hope rather than the Jewish earthly carnal one, that most contemporary Premillennialists promote. He expands:

As John the Baptist said: “For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.” Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: “But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.” And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, “The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” And again, confirming his former words, he says, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.” Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32:2).​

The Abrahamic inheritance is not identified with the Middle East but with the new regenerated earth. Possessing the Promised Land in fulfilment of the Abrahamic promise is shown here to describe inheriting the new glorified earth by the glorified redeemed saints. This has nothing to do with natural ethnic Israel retaking her ancient boundaries or the reintroduction of the abolished old covenant arrangement on a millennial earth, as many modern Premillennialists promote. The children of Abraham are the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ of all nations.

Irenaeus does not indicate that Abraham and his spiritual seed from both covenants are going back to the Middle East to take ancient real estate. He suggests that resurrected believers are coming back to populate the new earth. He teaches: “Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed.” He then quotes Christ’s words on the Mount of the Beatitudes to support his thesis: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” This is a classic Amillennial position. He further teaches:

And again the same speaks thus: “These things saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers.” Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament “raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,” is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers” (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 34:1).​

This is not familiar reading for modern day Premillennialists. It is the language of their Amillennialism brethren. This is consistent throughout the early Chiliast writers. They have more in common with modern Amillennialists than Millennialists.

 

[WPM]

OP Note

The questions presented in the Op have been avoided by Premils because they know this thesis is accurate. If they had answers they would doubtless give it. You know on forums like this when someone is hitting the nail on the head, it is when others have no answer or rebuttal to that particular argument. When it comes to history there is no doubt that Premil has no early orthodox Premil advocates in the first near 300 years. All the early Premils were heretics.

When we search for Chiliast teaching between AD 30-430, we cannot find one single shred of teaching on a future millennial kingdom from any of the early Church fathers based in Israel, Syria, Egypt and modern Greece. Think about this: there was only one teacher of Chiliasm in the very heartland of early Christianity during it transformative days. That is significant, and matters, in the light of many of the outlandish claims we hear from many modern-day partisan-historians.

The seat of power and influence within the Faith gradually moved over the early centuries from Antioch (in Syria) and Alexandria (in Egypt) to Rome (in Italy). Notably: the Italian church centered in Rome only possessed 2 known Chiliast proponents in the first 400 years after the cross – Hippolytus (Rome, Italy, AD 170–236) and Gaudentius (Brescia, Italy, AD 387-410).

So, we are looking here at a combined total of 3 known Chiliasts among the Patristic writers in the whole of Israel (including the church in Jerusalem), Greece, Syria (including the church in Antioch), Egypt (including the church in Alexandrian) and Italy (including the Roman church) during the first 400 years after Calvary, none of which, notably, held the Premillennial scheme that we have today. This totally destroys the widespread false Premillennial propaganda that the early Church was overwhelmingly Premillennial. The opposite was actually the case.

 

[Truth7t7]

You know on forums like this when someone is hitting the nail on the head, it is when others have no answer or rebuttal to that particular argument.

I Agree, Just false personal attacks :)

 

[Timtofly]

All theology is just human additive imagination upon the Word of God.

You can grasp onto human understanding, but some of us prefer God's Word, not man's opinion.

 

[WPM]

All theology is just human additive imagination upon the Word of God.

You can grasp onto human understanding, but some of us prefer God's Word, not man's opinion.

Not true. You refuse to accept the clear and repeated teaching pertaining to end-times.