23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[robert derrick]

You are clearly uncomfortable with this issue. However, I will pursue.

For the mortals that you claim will get saved during your supposed future millennium, do you believe they will all be glorified when Satan's little season is over?

ONly those being saved, circumcised of the Spirit, and walking in the paths of the Lord. Even as today.

Are those who are supposedly saved in that period and are alive when the earth flees away glorified, raptured and transferred to your supposed brand-new earth?

Scripture does not say anyone is alive on earth, when the heaven and earth flee from the face of God.

Are those who are supposedly saved in that period and die before the earth flees away resurrected, glorified, and transferred to your supposed brand-new earth?

They are resurrected with the rest of the dead, and will be found in the Lamb's book of life and have part with all the saints first resurrected from the dead.

 

[WPM]

Scripture does not say anyone is alive on earth, when the heaven and earth flee from the face of God.

So, where are all the redeemed mortals in Satan's little season? Who are "the camp of the saints" that Satan and his billions surround as "the sand of the sea" in your millennium?

 

[robert derrick]

How long does salvation last according to the Bible?

On this earth, being saved lasts only as long as we are loving God with all the heart and obeying Jesus by faith, spiritually and bodily:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

If we abide in Him and overcome temptation unto the end and the resurrection from the dead, then salvation is eternal with immortal spiritual bodies and perfected spirits:

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

Those disobeying God are rejecting God and His deliverance from sinning.

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Those sinning with the devil, are not being sons of God, nor saved and justified by Jesus Christ:

He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.

Those who are doing unrighteous works of the flesh are the unrighteous, that are not inheriting the kingdom of God:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

He that is doing the righteousness of God is the righteous in Christ Jesus, that are inheriting His kingdom:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

One's own faith alone saves no man, but only those with the faith of Jesus, that loves and obeys God, saves the soul and justifies man.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Jesus only gives the gift of His saving faith, to them that repent of sinning to love and obey Him from a pure heart.

 

[Keraz]

Your struggle is not with Amils. It is with Scripture.

Scripture and history is clear to me. Mankind has 7000 years of mortal existence.
Your AMill belief is mud. Revelation 20, read in the normal, literal sense, [if it can happen as stated; then it will] makes you wromg.

 

[WPM]

On this earth, being saved lasts only as long as we are loving God with all the heart and obeying Jesus by faith, spiritually and bodily:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

If we abide in Him and overcome temptation unto the end and the resurrection from the dead, then salvation is eternal with immortal spiritual bodies and perfected spirits:

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

Those disobeying God are rejecting God and His deliverance from sinning.

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Those sinning with the devil, are not being sons of God, nor saved and justified by Jesus Christ:

He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.

Those who are doing unrighteous works of the flesh are the unrighteous, that are not inheriting the kingdom of God:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

He that is doing the righteousness of God is the righteous in Christ Jesus, that are inheriting His kingdom:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

One's own faith alone saves no man, but only those with the faith of Jesus, that loves and obeys God, saves the soul and justifies man.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Jesus only gives the gift of His saving faith, to them that repent of sinning to love and obey Him from a pure heart.

You don't seem to believe in eternal life. I thought it. Your salvation also seems to be based on works, as i suspected. It is based on you. Biblical salvation is built upon Christ and what He has done for us. It is eternal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The synonymous parallelism in Revelation all culminates at the climactic return of Christ that sees the destruction of the wicked and the destruction of this fallen creation.

No and if you bothered to read Revelation, you would see that.

It is simply consecutive actions

1. 7 seals
2. seven trumpets
3. seven bowls
4 return of Jesus.

Just like it is written

The seals are different from teh trumpets which are different from the bowls. Just a casual reading proves that beyond dispute.

 

[WPM]

No and if you bothered to read Revelation, you would see that.

It is simply consecutive actions

1. 7 seals
2. seven trumpets
3. seven bowls
4 return of Jesus.

Just like it is written

The seals are different from teh trumpets which are different from the bowls. Just a casual reading proves that beyond dispute.

Not true. The book of Revelation is not chronological. It is a series of repetitions. It is a number of recaps describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. How could Revelation be chronological when we do not read of the birth of Christ until Revelation 12? The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Looking at Revelation 10:5-7, there is clearly a major dilemma for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The ESV Study Bible states: “Revelation unveils the unseen spiritual war in which the church is engaged: the cosmic conflict between God and his Christ on the one hand, and Satan and his evil allies (both demonic and human) on the other. In this conflict, Jesus the Lamb has already won the decisive victory through his sacrificial death, but his church continues to be assaulted by the dragon, in its death-throes, through persecution, false teaching, and the allure of material affluence and cultural approval. By revealing the spiritual realities lying behind the church’s trials and temptations during the time between Christ’s first and second comings, and by dramatically affirming the certainty of Christ’s triumph in the new heaven and earth, the visions granted to John both warn the church and fortify it to endure suffering and to stay pure from the defiling enticements of the present world order.”

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Those who have eyes to see will get the general thrust of the book! That does not mean we will grasp every minute detail. But we should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not true. The book of Revelation is not chronological. It is a series of repetitions. It is a number of recaps describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. How could Revelation be chronological when we do not read of the birth of Christ until Revelation 12? The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Looking at Revelation 10:5-7, there is clearly a major dilemma for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The ESV Study Bible states: “Revelation unveils the unseen spiritual war in which the church is engaged: the cosmic conflict between God and his Christ on the one hand, and Satan and his evil allies (both demonic and human) on the other. In this conflict, Jesus the Lamb has already won the decisive victory through his sacrificial death, but his church continues to be assaulted by the dragon, in its death-throes, through persecution, false teaching, and the allure of material affluence and cultural approval. By revealing the spiritual realities lying behind the church’s trials and temptations during the time between Christ’s first and second comings, and by dramatically affirming the certainty of Christ’s triumph in the new heaven and earth, the visions granted to John both warn the church and fortify it to endure suffering and to stay pure from the defiling enticements of the present world order.”

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Those who have eyes to see will get the general thrust of the book! That does not mean we will grasp every minute detail. But we should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

Well I got the thrust of the book.

But sorry the seals, trumpets and bowls have not been occurring yet.

Point to a series of events and show how they fulfill the prophecies.

 

[WPM]

Well I got the thrust of the book.

But sorry the seals, trumpets and bowls have not been occurring yet.

Point to a series of events and show how they fulfill the prophecies.

There you go again. More avoidance. This is your default response when your beliefs are exposed. Ignore the contradictions in your position as if they don't exist. You are living in denial. Your avoidance does not cause these to go away, but rather exposes them as marking your error. I refer you back to my last post that remains unaddressed.

 

[Timtofly]

Gog and Magog mobilize in their billions from throughout the world and overrun your supposed future millennium at the end.

I thought saying billions is not logical? You don't have a clue, nor even want to reason out the population explosion over the next 1,000 years. Give it up, if you are not even going to at least understand how the Millennium works. Your speculation is hearsay, or you made it all up yourself.

 

[WPM]

I thought saying billions is not logical? You don't have a clue, nor even want to reason out the population explosion over the next 1,000 years. Give it up, if you are not even going to at least understand how the Millennium works. Your speculation is hearsay, or you made it all up yourself.

Your speculations are total fantasy. They will never happen. The fact is: all the wicked are going to be destroyed when Jesus comes. They will face their final and eternal punishment. The righteous are all going to be glorified when Jesus comes. They will populate the new earth. There is therefore no allowance or space in Scripture for your imaginary future millennial earth overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions, as you propose. It will never happen. It is fake news!

 

[Timtofly]

Armageddon & Gog/Magog, Is The Same Battle In Parallel Teachings

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

None of those gathered in Revelation 16:14 are deceived by Satan. They all have the mark of the beast and have worshipped Satan all their life.

How can they be the same people deceived by Satan after knowing who Jesus the King is?

One group is killed by the Word out of Jesus' mouth. The other is consumed by fire from God out of heaven.

You have the FP and the beast with a get out of the LoF free card. How do you get them out of the LOF to then be consumed by fire? Why did you stop at verse 9?

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and FP were already in the LoF when Satan was loosed out of the pit. Do you speculate people can now get out of the LOF and return to a physical body? Satan was not in the LOF. Satan was bound in the pit. The FP and beast were not bound in the pit, but were in the LOF.

First of all you deny Satan was bound in the pit, when the beast and FP were cast into the LOF. Then you have to make up a story, they get out of the LOF when Satan is loosed from the pit.

 

[Truth7t7]

None of those gathered in Revelation 16:14 are deceived by Satan. They all have the mark of the beast and have worshipped Satan all their life.

How can they be the same people deceived by Satan after knowing who Jesus the King is?

One group is killed by the Word out of Jesus' mouth. The other is consumed by fire from God out of heaven.

You have the FP and the beast with a get out of the LoF free card. How do you get them out of the LOF to then be consumed by fire? Why did you stop at verse 9?

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and FP were already in the LoF when Satan was loosed out of the pit. Do you speculate people can now get out of the LOF and return to a physical body? Satan was not in the LOF. Satan was bound in the pit. The FP and beast were not bound in the pit, but were in the LOF.

First of all you deny Satan was bound in the pit, when the beast and FP were cast into the LOF. Then you have to make up a story, they get out of the LOF when Satan is loosed from the pit.

Your Response Is Chaotic Confusion

 

[Timtofly]

Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.

Those who are doing unrighteous works of the flesh are the unrighteous, that are not inheriting the kingdom of God:

This verse is all the proof one needs of OSAS.

Once a person is born from above they cannot sin ever again.

According to you any one who sins, was never born of God, nor saved.

 

[Timtofly]

Your speculations are total fantasy. They will never happen. The fact is: all the wicked are going to be destroyed when Jesus comes. They will face their final and eternal punishment. The righteous are all going to be glorified when Jesus comes. They will populate the new earth. There is therefore no allowance or space in Scripture for your imaginary future millennial earth overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions, as you propose. It will never happen. It is fake news!

Who said anything about the wicked in the Millennium? It starts out with perfect humans. All the imperfect humans are dead, remember? Perfect humans having perfect offspring is the only way to even start getting this sand of the seashore, amount. By the way there are trillions of sand on the seashore all over the earth.

You still have no clue even how many humans will be born over the next 1,000 years. They cannot be deceived by Satan if they cannot even be born and exist for 1,000 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Your Response Is Chaotic Confusion

That is the difference between the two different events. You conflating the two events makes for that chaotic confusion. It is good to see that you admit your conflating these seperate events is chaotic confusion.

I just pointed out the facts of each event. Your belief is contradictory.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is the difference between the two different events. You conflating the two events makes for that chaotic confusion. It is good to see that you admit your conflating these seperate events is chaotic confusion.

I just pointed out the facts of each event. Your belief is contradictory.

Armageddon & Gog/Magog are the very same battle in parallel teachings

The book of Revelation is written in parallel teachings of same events

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

 

[robert derrick]

So, where are all the redeemed mortals in Satan's little season? Who are "the camp of the saints" that Satan and his billions surround as "the sand of the sea" in your millennium?

Scripture doesn't say. They surround the camp, as well as the beloved city, without necessarily any saints in either of them.

Or they can be there and already changed into immortality, even as them remaining alive on earth at His second coming.

If changed into immortality with the rest of the immortal saints reigning on earth, then they can ascend and descend upon earth just the same as they, and there can be no harm come to them.

But, the rest of the dead in Christ during the Millennium, will then be resurrected with the rest of the wicked dead, but unto life in the Lamb's book.

Perhaps Gog and Magog will come to the camp and city, thinking the saved saints are still in natural mortal bodies, and they get a big surprise just before being devoured by fire of God.

One thing is for sure, that the unbelievers don't understand, is that God at times allows the wicked to make war with Him and His people, and allows them to foolishly come together in one place, so that the Lord can wisely destroy them all at once.

He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

It happened in the flood, by them not entering the ark, so that in that sense they were isolated, and it happened with Pharaoh in the Red Sea, and with the Assyrians outside Jerusalem, and will happen at Armageddon, and then finally with Gog and Magog.

The Lord is the most perfect warrior King ever.

 

[robert derrick]

You don't seem to believe in eternal life. I thought it. Your salvation also seems to be based on works, as i suspected. It is based on you. Biblical salvation is built upon Christ and what He has done for us. It is eternal.

Typical twisted reply of OSAS believers.

I knew you were OSAS.

I've never met any OSAS Christians with any honesty in disputes of Scripture. You always purposely misstate the arguments of others, in order to make them something they are not.

As I said, I don't believe any of you are capable of properly stating opposing arguments, because you cannot allow anything to remotely even appear to correct you.

Once you allow any correction at all, no matter how slight, your whole house of self-justifying cards falls apart.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

No man is saved and justified by his own faith and personal doctrine alone, but only by the faith of Jesus doing His Word.

The light of OSAS faith shines in the doctrinal house of sand,

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[WPM]

Scripture doesn't say. They surround the camp, as well as the beloved city, without necessarily any saints in either of them.

Or they can be there and already changed into immortality, even as them remaining alive on earth at His second coming.

If changed into immortality with the rest of the immortal saints reigning on earth, then they can ascend and descend upon earth just the same as they, and there can be no harm come to them.

But, the rest of the dead in Christ during the Millennium, will then be resurrected with the rest of the wicked dead, but unto life in the Lamb's book.

Perhaps Gog and Magog will come to the camp and city, thinking the saved saints are still in natural mortal bodies, and they get a big surprise just before being devoured by fire of God.

One thing is for sure, that the unbelievers don't understand, is that God at times allows the wicked to make war with Him and His people, and allows them to foolishly come together in one place, so that the Lord can wisely destroy them all at once.

He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

It happened in the flood, by them not entering the ark, so that in that sense they were isolated, and it happened with Pharaoh in the Red Sea, and with the Assyrians outside Jerusalem, and will happen at Armageddon, and then finally with Gog and Magog.

The Lord is the most perfect warrior King ever.

What you are saying is: Rev 20 does not say what you are saying. All you have is speculation. The reality is: the millennium is overrun by wicked followers of Satan in their billions (as the sand of the sea) who surround the saints of God at the end. This seems to relate more to our day, and what Scripture teaches about the intra-Advent period.