22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[BreadOfLife]

Debunked previously.

The NT authors did not write in Aramaic. They wrote in Greek.

Every known Greek manuscript (and there are many) distinguishes between Petra and Petros.

There is no Aramaic manuscript which pre-dates the oldest Greek manuscript.

The Codex Vaticanus in your Vatican library is Greek, and distinguishes between Petra and Petros.

You lose.

So, you obviously didn’t actually READ the evidence I presented.
The fact that the text is written in Greek is irrelevant.

Greek was merely the lingua franca of commerce and communication between cultures in the first century. THAT’S why they wrote the NT in Greek.
However – they SPOKE Aramaic – that that IS relevant.

Try again . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL! You just don't get it. You are just a robot incapable of having any thoughts of your own. I DO NOT CARE about "Protestant scholarship". Do you understand what I'm saying? There are many false teachers in BOTH Catholicism and Protestantism. Is that something you are capable of understanding? Who are YOU to decide who should be respected or not? You have clearly shown that you are not qualified to make that determination.

Actually- that's a LIE.
You place ALL of your trust in Protestant teaching.

The minute you accept false Protestant doctrines like Scripture Alone or Faith Alone or Eternal Security - you have trusted in those false doctrines for your very salvation.

None of this matters. All of these clowns are not taking the following passage into account when interpreting Matthew 16:18:

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

This passage makes it very clear that Jesus Christ Himself is the Rock and chief cornerstone of the church. As Paul said, "in HIM the whole building is joined together". To put anyone else on a pedestal the way the false Catholic Church does is an insult to Jesus Christ Himself! Peter was just one of the apostles and prophets that make up the foundation of the church. There is no basis WHATSOEVER for putting Peter or anyone else on a pedestal the way you do.

You have completely IGNORED Rev. 21:9-27, where we read about the New Jerusalem coning out of Heaven. In verse 14, we read:

The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Peter is the Rock of Matt. 16:18 – just as Abraham is the Rock of Isa, 50:1-2.

 

[covenantee]

So, you obviously didn’t actually READ the evidence I presented.
The fact that the text is written in Greek is irrelevant.

Greek was merely the lingua franca of commerce and communication between cultures in the first century. THAT’S why they wrote the NT in Greek.
However – they SPOKE Aramaic – that that IS relevant.

Try again . . .

You've not disproved a single point that I've made.

Oh, and you'd better get yourself over to the Vatican library and find that Codex Vaticanus and trash it.

It's making a fool out of you.

 

[covenantee]

Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with a permanent result. So it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

Luke 1:28 Greek

5487 [e]
kecharitōmenē
κεχαριτωμένη !
[you] favored with grace
V-RPM/P-VFS

The descriptors permanently, completely, perfectly and enduringly are nonexistent in the definition of the Greek.

Just more papist delusion, deception, fabrication and fallacy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL! He was not referring to the Roman Catholic Church that we know today. LOL! The word catholic comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά 'about' and ὅλος 'whole'. All he was talking about was the universal/catholic Christian church of which all who have repented and put their faith in Christ belong (regardless of whether they are Catholic, Protestant, etc.), not your false Roman Catholic Church. Nice try.

WRONG, my woefully-ignorant friend . . .

From the SAME century, we read the following excerpt from the document, “Martyrdom of Polycarp”. Polycarp was a contemporary and friend of Ignatius of Antioch:

Excerpt from The Martyrdom of Polycarp:
“When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath.”

The words, καθ ολης (katah-holos) is GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal”.

The phrase in The Martyrdom of Polycarp - which, by the way, is ALSO written in GREEK - would be horribly redundant, if not comical. It would go something like this:
"... and the whole whole throughout Church throughout the world ..."

It is blindingly clear to any honest person, that this document is using the term Catholic Church as a TITLE and not a mere description - or the wording would make no sense whatsoever.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You've not disproved a single point that I've made.

Oh, and you'd better get yourself over to the Vatican library and find that Codex Vaticanus and trash it.

It's making a fool out of you.

Don't know WHY you keep repeating this stupid claim.
The Greek text is totally irrelevant in determining WHO the "Rock" is.

The answer lies in the Aramaic - NOT the Greek.
Why do you thin k Paul refers to Peter as "Cephas" in his letters, Einstein?
Cephas is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic Kepha (Rock).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Luke 1:28 Greek

5487 [e]
kecharitōmenē
κεχαριτωμένη !
[you] favored with grace
V-RPM/P-VFS

The descriptors permanently, completely, perfectly and enduringly are nonexistent in the definition of the Greek.

Just more papist delusion, deception, fabrication and fallacy.

kecharitomene - "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)

The word Kecharitomene that the angel used for Mary is a Title is used NOWHERE else in ALL of Scripture.

 

[covenantee]

Don't know WHY you keep repeating this stupid claim.
The Greek text is totally irrelevant in determining WHO the "Rock" is.

The answer lies in the Aramaic - NOT the Greek.
Why do you thin k Paul refers to Peter as "Cephas" in his letters, Einstein?
Cephas is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic Kepha (Rock).

Have you found that Codex yet?

And I'm waiting for a link to the Aramaic manuscript which pre-dates the oldest Greek manuscript.

Take your time.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is to guffaw.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

So when Isaiah called Christ Wonderful, He wasn't really Wonderful, because that was only His title.
So when Isaiah called Christ Counsellor, He wasn't really Counsellor, because that was only His title.
So when Isaiah called Christ The Mighty God, He wasn't really The Mighty God, because that was only His title.
So when Isaiah called Christ The Everlasting Father, He wasn't really The Everlasting Father, because that was only His title.
So when Isaiah called Christ The Prince of Peace, He wasn't really The Prince of Peace, because that was only His title.

Your claim is beyond risibly abominable.

I can't tell if you are either being purposely dense - or you REALLY ARE that numb . . .

For the FIFTH time:
Bellarmine attributes the titles that dealt with Jesus's Authority over the Church.
He wasn't referring to ALL of Jesus's Titles, Einstein.

Good grief . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Have you found that Codex yet?

And I'm waiting for a link to the Aramaic manuscript which pre-dates the oldest Greek manuscript.

Take your time.

Dude - are you really this dense??

The SPOKE in Aramaic.
The WROTE iin Greek.

The Greek CANNOT be perfectly translated word-for-word- because it contains male and female nounds and verbs. Aramaic doesn;'t.
So you cannot refer to a MAN as "Petra". He must be called "Petros"
It would be like calling him "Patricia".

There are SEVERAL words for Rock in Greek - both male and female:
Lithos, Petra, Petros
There is ONE word for Rock in Aramaic = Kepha.

 

[covenantee]

Dude - are you really this dense??

The SPOKE in Aramaic.
The WROTE iin Greek.

The Greek CANNOT be perfectly translated word-for-word- because it contains male and female nounds and verbs. Aramaic doesn;'t.
So you cannot refer to a MAN as "Petra". He must be called "Petros"
It would be like calling him "Patricia".

There are SEVERAL words for Rock in Greek - both male and female:
Lithos, Petra, Petros
There is ONE word for Rock in Aramaic = Kepha.

Keep looking for that Codex.

Gotta be in there somewhere.

 

[covenantee]

So you cannot refer to a MAN as "Petra".

1 Corinthians 10:4 Greek

Christ is Petra.

Christ is a Man.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Corinthians 10:4 Greek

Christ is Petra.

Christ is a Man.

Here's a quiz for you, Einstein:
How do you say, "Peter" in Greek?.

 

[covenantee]

Here's a quiz for you, Einstein:
How do you say, "Peter" in Greek?.

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. Paul

Do you need a hint?

 

[covenantee]

Here's a quiz for you, Einstein:
How do you say, "Peter" in Greek?.

1 Corinthians 10:4 isn't about Peter.

It's about Christ.

The Petra.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

With regard to Mary’s Immaculate Conception – We read about that in Luke 1:28.

Luke 1:28
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!

The Greek text is very different – and more difficult to translate into one word.

The Angel didn’t say, “Greetings, O favored one”, He said, “Greetings, Kecharitomene.”

Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with a permanent result. So it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

This is a person who has been completed in grace, which is something that WE are all still hoping for.

Good grief. Are you kidding me with this nonsense? You talk about stretching the text to make it say whatever you want it to say. Terrible. She was a sinner who needed to be saved just like the rest of us. NOTHING you said here changes that. This is case of completely going out of your way to make the scripture say whatever you want it to say. Horrible.

As for the idea that “ALL have sinned” – I have a couple of questions for you:

What about Jesus? Is He not part of “ALL”?

Obviously not. Have you no discernment whatsoever?

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

This is talking about how everyone inherited a tendency to sin going back to the sin of Adam which "resulted in condemnation for all people". The solution for this was "through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous". So, what scripture teaches is that all people who have descended from Adam physically (Jesus is not included in that because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit rather than of human beings like the rest of us) are sinners. That includes Mary.

How many infants do you know who have sinned? I never met one.

Was Mary an infant? This question is irrelevant to what we are talking about. Quit trying to change the subject. All infants are born with a tendency to sin which will come to fruition for all who live long enough for it to come to fruition, which includes Mary.

Here is a Scriptural comparison of the OT Type that was the Ark of the Covenant with Mary, who is the NT Fulfillment of the Ark. She is the Ark of the NEW Covenant (Jesus):

The Ark had to be completely purified and blessed inside and out in order to carry symbols of God’s power within it.
How much more blessed and pure would the vessel that actually carried GOD Himself have to be?

OT - The Tabernacle that housed the Ark was overshadowed by the cloud of glory of the Lord (Shekinah glory) filled the Tabernacle (2 Chron. 5:13-14).
NT - Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Most High (Luke 1:35).

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) who carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

I have more - nut I'll leave this for you to chew on for now.

So instead of your usual denials – how about offering a Scriptural refutation??

None of this says anything about Mary being sinless. Did you forget what you were supposed to be talking about? Your attempts to change the subject are quite noticeable and embarrassing (for you).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

kecharitomene - "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)

The word Kecharitomene that the angel used for Mary is a Title is used NOWHERE else in ALL of Scripture.

Here's another title for Mary that you should learn: Sinner. Here's another one: Saved. Here's another: Christian.

 

[PinSeeker]

WRONG. We CAN know who is in His Church;

I agree to this extent, that we can know who is and is not (believers and unbelievers, respectively) in His Church by their fruits (good ~ or the absence of good ~ or bad).

And (I'm being a little facetious here, but it is true) we can know who are members of the tangible Catholic Church (Catholics)... :) ...just as we can know who are members of Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc., churches... :)

Being a member of His Church is NOT a guarantee of salvation.

Well, being a member of the Catholic church (or Baptist, or Methodist, or...) is not a guarantee of salvation, for sure. :) But, undeniably (if one takes God at His Word), being in Christ is most certainly a guarantee of salvation, both present and future, as in one sense we have been saved, and in another we are being saved. Paul and Peter, among others are crystal clear on this fact (emphases added):

"...we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:3-14)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Those who endure in faith to the end will be saved.

Right, and they will do so by God's power (1 Peter 1:5, directly above).

YOU sound like an elitist who believes that ONLY the “Saved” are among those in Christ’s Church.

Hm. Wow. Even after I said that Jesus, in His Olivet discourse, was very clear in saying that everyone is eligible to be saved, that the Gospel is for all? All I am saying ~ because Scripture is very clear on it, namely Moses and Paul ~ is that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion... that He ~ God ~ has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

And actually, BreadOfLife, I'm not sure I would use the term 'elitist,' but it sounds to me like you're saying the very thing you seem to be refuting here, basically, that only Catholics are saved, which sounds like exclusivism to me. I mean, Jesus certainly claimed exclusivity for Himself, that no one can come to the Father except through Him, but far, far more than just Catholics are eligible... :)

To be continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

I take it you’re a Calvinist?

I would say, BreadOfLife, that my understandings of Scripture line up very closely to John Calvin's, so yes. And you, my friend, are very Arminian in yours. But not all Catholics are...

Once again – you live in a fantasy world where everything ins “peaches and cream”. The Church is in decline – Catholic and Protestant. That’s just a FACT. We can hide our heads in the sand and live in denial about it – or we cab DO something about it by spreading the Gospel message.

Well, again, yes, the aggregate number of professing believers is surely in decline; I never denied that and have concurred on that several times now. But, God promised to build His kingdom, which is made up of true believers, those born again in Christ, and that has been true and will continue to be true until ~ as Paul says ~ the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in and the partial hardening now on Israel is removed. People are still... coming to Christ, and will up to that time. Even though the number of professing believers is declining ~ at least in certain areas of the world;t the story is quite the opposite in places like Africa and China...

YOURS is a denial of the very definition.

No, it's an affirmation of the Biblically correct definition. :) But far be it from me to deprive you of your opinion. :)

The Catholic church is not a “Branch” of Christianity.

Hmmm... no comment here... :) I guess all I will say is that there is no "branch of Christianity"... :) Your response here is to my comment that (and I quote myself), "Denominations are recognized autonomous branches of the visible Christian Church." I get that you don't see the same difference I do, but I would say that calling something a "branch of Christianity" and calling something a "recognized autonomous branch of the visible Christian Church" are two very different descriptions.

It is the Original Tree from which ALL of the other branches sprouted.

That's the Catholic narrative, sure. And, as I've said before, I agree, really, but obviously in a much larger sense that what you have in mind; this is what I said ~ in a slightly different way ~ to Illuminator above.

No – that’s the one. In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self: He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Okay, sure. It's parallel to what He says in Matthew 25, in opposing ways regarding believers and unbelievers (and will say upon His return to some as opposed to others):

"...'I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed Me, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me... Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.’"

“...'I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me... Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’”

The irony, really, BreadOfLife, is that ~ unintentional as it may be ~ you make these things to be far smaller than they really are.

Like it or not – Jesus built ONE Church... That Church is His BODY and HE is the Head (Col. 1:18). He prayed for the UNITY of that Church – that it remain ONE and He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). ALL Christians are incorporated to this ONE Church through Baptism (John 3:5, Mark 16:16). This is the “circumcision of the heart” that Paul speaks of.

Right. Agreed. Like. :)

Protestant Christians, however, are self-separated from that ONE Church.

LOL! Not at all. My goodness. The issue, BreadOfLife, is now ~ as it has been from the outset of our conversation ~ what, actually who that Church is. :)

Jesus established the Church one earth so that the world would NEVER be without Him. He and His Church are ONE (Acts 9:4-5, Col. 1:18, 1 Cor. 12).

Absolutely... :)

You CANNOT know Him if you refuse to know His Church.

One cannot know Him unless he/she is born again of the Spirit, because up to that time, he/she are dead in his/her sin, and therefore a slave to unrighteousness.

I actually got that metaphor from a PROTESTANT source. Church historian, Kenneth Samples wrote that in an essay for the Christian Research Institute that operates the Bible Answer Man radio show.

The name of the essay is “What Think Ye of Rome?”

Okay, well, there are a lot of very wrong "Protestant sources" out there... :) I'm not necessarily saying Kenneth Samples is one of those people; I would like to know his particular context in saying that, if in fact that's what he actually said/wrote/meant. Just on cursory glance though, I do see that he says this: "Today the Catholic church is incredibly divergent. Its diversity is actually on the level of that within Protestantism." Perhaps you disagree with that particular statement, but then that would mean you're... cherry-picking... :)

I honestly don’t know how you can say this with a straight face. New doctrines were being invented by different men during this time who eventual started they OWN sects based on their personal interpretations.

It seems to me because you're not giving it an earnest, honest assessment. I don't disagree that "new doctrines (have been) invented by different men (and women) ...who eventually started their own sects based on their personal interpretations." And, for sure, this is apostasy. However, I don't really know if you're trying to do this or not, but you can't paint every "departure," we'll call it, as apostasy. A very large amount of this "division" has been to avoid dissensions, controversies, and quarrels, which is exactly what Paul exhorts us all as Christians to do.

And, as I said, you're really sort of a pot calling the kettle black, so to speak, BOL. It is quite true that "today's Catholic church is incredibly divergent... and actually on the level of that within Protestantism," as Kenneth Samples said (quoted above).

Grace and peace to you, BreadOfLife.

 

[rwb]

as Paul says ~ the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in and the partial hardening now on Israel is removed.

Where does Paul say the partial hardening on Israel is removed after the fullness of the Gentiles be come in? Those hardened were the branches in unbelief, who can be grafted in again IF they do not remain in unbelief. Paul does not say hardening on Israel is removed.

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Paul seems to be saying hardness in part has happened to Israel, because in this way, or by this means, Gentiles too shall be grafted in with Israel of faith. So that all Israel (Jew & Gentile of faith) shall be saved. IOW Israel shall be a people of faith from all nations, tribes, kindred and tongues.