22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

The rest of the dead are folks that died without specific salvation up to the first resurrection. They resurrect at Rev 20:14 to be judged per their works.

The first resurrection is for the elect of God.

It happens at the return of Christ.

The saints of God are the only folks qualified to have part in it.

What? But you just quoted the opposite and applied it to the wicked. That is a total contradiction.

 

[covenantee]

Rom 3: (Paul)
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 10: (Paul)
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Thes 4: (Paul)
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Matt 16: (Jesus)
[15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Matt 16: (Simon Peter)
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matt: 16 (Jesus)
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:

for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (God)

Matt 16: (Jesus)
[20] Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Matt 16: (Jesus)
[18] And I (Jesus) say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God) I (Christ Jesus) will build my (Christ Jesus’)church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Thes 4: (Paul)
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.




You should be able to figure out from Scripture:

Belief IN Jesus died, God raised Jesus Up….Shall God raise up that man.

Belief IN Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus died, God raised Jesus Up…and Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God….Shall the Lord raise up that man.

You should be able to figure from Scripture:
* God Requires a mans Bodily Death.
* Men are NOT RAISED UP, until AFTER Gods REQUIRED bodily Death.
* Men IN Jesus ARE Raised UP by God.
* Men IN Christ Jesus ARE Raised UP by the Lord Jesus.

You should be able to figure from Scripture:
WHEN…God Raises UP men IN Jesus.
WHEN…The Lord Raises UP men IN Christ Jesus.
You should be able to figure from Scripture WHY…
* WHY WHO raises WHO, and
* WHY of WHEN they are raised UP, and
* WHY to WHERE they are raised UP.

Some men BELIEVE in ONLY God.
Some men BELIEVE in God and Jesus Was a Prophet of God.
Some men BELIEVE in God and Jesus IS the Christ Messiah SENT By God.

In the END OF DAYS, EVERY INDIVIDUAL Man, SHALL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO “his own individual beliefs / works”….

Rom. 2:
[5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Matt 16:
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 6:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

A mans WORKS, satisfactory to GOD…
IS to BELIEVE on the One God SENT.

A mans WORKS, satisfactory to CHRIST…
IS to BELIEVE on the One Gods SENT IS JESUS the CHRIST.

You asked for a scenario, for me to give you SOME RANDOM MANS “beliefs”, as “verification” for my Beliefs.
Utterly Irrelevant what other men BELIEVE or TEACH.
My TEACHER IS the Lord Jesus, and the SAME Words, He TAUGHT TO His Disciples.

REMEMBER ??
Peter following along with Jesus?
When Peter was “WITH” Jesus, Peter Believed?
When Peter was “NOT in Jesus’ Presence”, out and about among the PEOPLE AT LARGE,
People said, Hey, you, you were with JESUS, and PETER DENIED even KNOWING Jesus?
WHY?
WHY was PETER afraid to ADMIT to have ANY Connection what-so-ever WITH Jesus?
FEAR…of his own BODILY LIFE to be ACCUSED of Believing “IN JESUS” being SENT BY GOD!
FEAR….of his own BODILY LIFE to be TREATED, Persecuted, Killed, for Knowing, Following, Believing IN Jesus.

Nothing NEW…For Centuries, Men have WARRED over and MEN have persecuted MEN for a mans CONFESSION OF BELIEF IN JESUS, and for a mans CONFESSION OF BELIEF IN JESUS IS THE CHRIST, the SON of the LIVING GOD.

Nothing NEW…TO THIS DAY, men in fear of men MIGHT BODILY KILL THEM….WILL confess DENIAL of their BELIEF IN Jesus, IN Christ…..

AND?
Nothing NEW…Scripture REPEATEDLY WARNS What a man Confesses with his Mouth, shall be the SAME the Lord God Shall BELIEVE and RESPOND accordingly.

Men who CONFESS their BELIEF, “IN JESUS”, Can and Do….MAKE additional CONFESSIONS of their DENIAL of JESUS….
AND? Forfeit their GIFT OF SALVATION…
THEY WOULD HAVE RECEIVED ON THE DAY OF THEIR BODILY DEATH.

Because REMEMBER….What a man confesses before other men is the Same the Lord will Confess to God, that which a man HAS confessed to other men.
AND REMEMBER….IF a man IS NOT with the Lord that man IS AGAINST the Lord.

IN Jesus….IS WITH Jesus….and a man CAN FALL AWAY, AND Jesus WILL LEAVE that man.

IN Christ Jesus…IS WITH”IN” Christ Jesus…and a man CAN NEVER FALL AWAY.
Christ’s SPIRIT (ie the Spirit of God), IS IN that man…That man FOREVER IS KEPT WITH Christ the Lord God, by the POWER of God IN that man. THAT men ‘IS SAVED” and can NEVER FALL AWAY. The Lord God can NEVER Leave THAT man.
The whole basis and meaning of the acronym … OSAS.

Glory to God,
Taken

What to believe?

1. Your private malinterpretation
or
2. All of orthodox Christianity

Do you need a hint?

 

[Taken]

What to believe?

FREEWILL! Believe whatever you choose.

I choose to believe the Knowledge in Scripture, and showed you The express Knowledge in Scripture I choose to Believe.

Zero effect on me what you choose to Believe the Knowledge in Scripture OR NOT!

1)Your private misinterpretation.

What private interpretation ?
You think Scripture Does NOT say what it Says?

Or

2. All of orthodox Christianity

So you favor to believe…What a group of some Unknown MEN have decided and Termed “orthodox Christianity” AND have “privately” Decided WHAT THEY “privately” have Determined the Understanding of WHAT Scripture means….whoop-ta-do!

I have chosen to Believe what Scripture SAYS…. Which Says Nothing about Trusting to believe Mens Interpretation for Understanding the Meaning of Scripture….BUT RATHER Expressly says The Lord God Himself will Give Individual men … His Understanding of What His Word means!

Do you need a hint?

No hint required…
Quite clear, you depend on men who have convinced you to believe IN Them to give you Gods Understanding of Gods Own Word….

As well should be clear to you, I depend on the Lord God Himself to GIVE ME Gods Understanding of His Own Word.

By far, I believe Gods Way (rather than your way) is the most Beneficial for me.

 

[Truth7t7]

Instead of always repeating what Scofield believes, how about addressing the sacred text and explain what the text says?

(The Future First Resurrection)

1 Thessalonians 4:16KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Truther]

What? But you just quoted the opposite and applied it to the wicked. That is a total contradiction.

I think you misunderstood what I said.

I have always known that the rest of the dead were not to be raised until the end of the world. This includes aborted babies etc.

 

[covenantee]

So you favor to believe…What a group of some Unknown MEN have decided

Thanks for the guffaw.
Only a one-man cult believes that the historical defenders of the true faith through the centuries are "unknown men".
Entirely unsurprising.
Yes, they're unknown to you.
They're not unknown to all who understand, appreciate, and thank God for their faith, vision, and sacrifice through the ages.

You think Scripture Does NOT say what it Says?

I know Scripture DOES NOT say what you claim it says.
Not even the recognized cults themselves believe that.

 

[Truther]

(The Future First Resurrection)

1 Thessalonians 4:16KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Exactly. This is a future event, even from Paul's day. It has not happened yet, but will. It is a detailed description of first part of the the first resurrection found in Rev 20(also 1 Cor 15).

 

[Truth7t7]

You totally avoided his question. That is who you are and that is what you do.

How is someone raised from spiritual death to spiritual life?

Your claim in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) salvation?

Your teaching and doctrine isnt found in scripture, it's that simple

The word "Resurrection" relates directly to the literal bodily resurrection seen throughout scripture

You use this private interpretation to lay a false foundation for the words (First Resurrection) seen in Revelation 20:6 as being fulfilled at a believers "Salvation" wrong

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

 

[Truther]

Your claim in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) salvation?

Your teaching and doctrine isnt found in scripture, it's that simple

The word "Resurrection" relates directly to the literal bodily resurrection seen throughout scripture

You use this private interpretation to lay a false foundation for the words (First Resurrection) seen in Revelation 20:6 as being fulfilled at a believers "Salvation" wrong

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

A physical resurrection is required to vindicate Jesus' words here...

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

Exactly. This is a future event, even from Paul's day. It has not happened yet, but will. It is a detailed description of first part of the the first resurrection found in Rev 20(also 1 Cor 15).

There will only be one part in the future first resurrection, it takes place in the twinkling of an eye, at the Lord's return (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

I think you misunderstood what I said.

I have always known that the rest of the dead were not to be raised until the end of the world. This includes aborted babies etc.

The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained?​

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can not read FOR YOU.
I can not study FOR YOU.

I would never want you to. You didn't answer my question as to why you misquoted me. Do you think it's okay to use dishonest tactics like that when debating?

Revelations 20 does not NEED to say Christ Jesus shall rule over the “EARTH”, as you demand.

Scripture harmonizes with Scripture and does not require repetition for those who fail to hear, read, study, learn.

Zech 14:
[9] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

He is king over all the earth NOW. Looks like you need someone to study FOR YOU, since your own studies are very lacking.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Are these passages in your Bible? If so, have you not read them? Or have you chosen to ignore them?

 

[covenantee]

Your claim in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) salvation?

Your teaching and doctrine isnt found in scripture, it's that simple

The word "Resurrection" relates directly to the literal bodily resurrection seen throughout scripture

You use this private interpretation to lay a false foundation for the words (First Resurrection) seen in Revelation 20:6 as being fulfilled at a believers "Salvation" wrong

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

Just can't conquer that cowardliness, can you.

Does "dead in trespasses and sins" refer to spiritual death or physical death?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL…Jesus was introduced to the people, long before they knew He is the Christ.

LOL. So what? He was always the Christ whether people knew it or not. You are trying to make things up that aren't taught in scripture anywhere just to keep your doctrine afloat. It's pathetic.

Stay in Gods Order and Way according to His Order and Way.

Stick with what scripture teaches instead of making up nonsense from your imagination such as saying being "in Jesus" and "in Christ" are different things. LOL. It doesn't get any more nonsensical than that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You worry to much about what MAKES SENSE….to satisfy your CARNAL MIND.

Spiritual Understanding is beyond Carnal Understanding.

You need to teach this to yourself. You don't need to tell me about spiritual things. You are clearly the one with the carnal mind. Everyone here can see your extreme lack of spiritual discernment. Anyone who tries to say that being "in Jesus" is different than being "in Christ" is clearly not spiritually in tune with spiritual reality.

Even the Disciples with JESUS daily for 3 years, hearing, listening, doubting, wavering, wondering, believing…..DID NOT GRASP the Spiritual Understanding JESUS IS THE CHRIST, until they were told and CONFESSED their Belief, that Jesus IS THE CHRIST, the Son of the Living God….and thereafter, they received Baptism of the Holy Spirit… nothing new…Same applies.

Actually Scripture says IN Jesus, IN Christ.

Actually Scripture says Belief IN Jesus, is Confessed by saying; A person believes God raised Jesus from the dead.

Actually Scripture says Belief IN Christ, is Confessed by saying: A person believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

What in the world is this nonsense? Where does scripture itself make these distinctions? NOWHERE. You are continually making things up.

Actually Scripture says JESUS IS: the Word of God.

Actually Scripture says CHRIST IS: the Power, the Wisdom, the Seed of God.

What is this nonsense? Is Christ not the Word of God? Is Jesus not "the Power, the Wisdom, the Seed of God"? What are you even saying here? Jesus is the Christ, so there is no basis for making these distinctions between Jesus and Christ that you're trying to make.

Actually there ARE People who believe IN Jesus, but not that He is the Christ (Messiah).

So what? That means NOTHING. If you don't believe He is the Christ then it means nothing. No one is "in Jesus" unless they believe He is the Christ. What is hard to understand about this? You are just making things up and everyone here can see that.

Actually People who confess BELIEF IN JESUS, and remain IN BELIEF IN JESUS, to the day of their PHYSICAL DEATH….GOD WILL SAVE THEM ON THE DAY OF THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH.

Actually People who confess BELIEF IN JESUS, and that HE IS THE CHRIST….become Crucified with Jesus, bodily accounted Dead…ARE SAVED AT THAT MOMENT…(before PHYSICAL Death)… and CHRIST WILL SAVE THEM.

What in the world is this ridiculous nonsense? Where do you find this taught in scripture? You are a FALSE TEACHER. You are claiming that someone can be saved without believing that Jesus is the Christ? That is a lie from the pit of hell. Such a person is an antichrist, not a saved Christian.

1 John 2:2 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

According to you, someone can deny that Jesus is the Christ but still believe in Jesus and be saved. Nonsense! Scripture says "such a person is the antichrist!". You have no understanding of scripture whatsoever.

WHAT and WHEN an individual BELIEVES…
MATTERS!
WHEN they ARE SAVED and BY WHOM….
MATTERS!

Where is this taught in scripture? You say a lot of things but do not back them up with scripture. That makes your opinions meaningless.

A person IN JESUS…..can fall away.
A person IN CHRIST….can NEVER fall away.

Where is this taught in scripture? NOWHERE. Where do you even come up with this stuff? Just your own imagination. From someone else? Certainly not from scripture.

IN Jesus….is a person IN the Word of God.
IN Christ….is a person IN the Power of God.

So, in Jesus a person can't be in the power of God? In Christ a person isn't in the Word of God? LOL. This is the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever seen.

Jesus IN a man….is the Word of God in a man
Christ IN a man….is the Power of God in a man

Basic teaching….and you don’t get it?

Basis nonsense you mean? You are making things up. You should be embarrassed. Jesus is Christ. Trying to differentiate between being "in Jesus" and "in Christ" is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first resurrection is this....


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Did you see that?

This event has not happened yet, but IS THE first resurrection.

But what about all the previous parts???

They are the takings, but not when the human spirit is united with the new body.

The spirit united with a new physical body is the official "first resurrection".

This means that the 1000 year millennial will not be reigned over by headless saints.

Aren't you also glad that the headless saints will reign in new bodies?

Where in that text does it say anything about the souls John saw being "united with a new physical body"? Read verse 6 there. At what point is it the case that the second death has no power over someone? Not until they are bodily resurrected? Or some time before that? The answer to the first question tells us the timing of people having part in the first resurrection.

And what about other scripture which teaches that Jesus's bodily resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5)? Should that not be taken into account when determining what it means to have part in the first resurrection? I certainly believe so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The new heaven and new earth are inhabited by old saints with new bodies.

These are not rebuilt heavens, earth and saints. All brand new.

This is what you said in response to this:

The first bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality was Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection. We don't have part in His resurrection bodily, we have part in it spiritually, as passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and parts of Romans 6 allude to.

How exactly does what you said have anything to do with what I had said?

 

[Truth7t7]

Where in that text does it say anything about the souls John saw being "united with a new physical body"? Read verse 6 there. At what point is it the case that the second death has no power over someone? Not until they are bodily resurrected? Or some time before that? The answer to the first question tells us the timing of people having part in the first resurrection.

And what about other scripture which teaches that Jesus's bodily resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5)? Should that not be taken into account when determining what it means to have part in the first resurrection? I certainly believe so.

The Scripture below clearly teaches that the (First Resurrection) takes place at the end on the non-literal 1,000 years

You falsely believe and teach that the (First Resurrection) seen below takes place at a believers time of salvation, suggesting Revelation 20:5-6 has/is fulfilled "Wrong"

Scripture teaches the dead will live again at the "Future" literal resurrection of "All", this takes place at the second coming on the last day

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Scripture below clearly teaches that the (First Resurrection) takes place at the end on the non-literal 1,000 years

No, it does not.

You falsely believe and teach that the (First Resurrection) seen below takes place at a believers time of salvation, suggesting Revelation 20:5-6 has/is fulfilled "Wrong"

Scripture teaches the dead will live again at the "Future" literal resurrection of "All", this takes place at the second coming on the last day

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You falsely believe that a future resurrection is the first resurrection when scripture teaches that Jesus Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection. You do not interpret scripture with scripture and that is why you believe many things that are false.

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

You are contradicting the order of resurrections that Paul gave here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection. The next resurrection in order will be the mass resurrection of the dead in Christ at His second coming. Any other understanding of the first resurrection is false. The question then becomes how does someone have part in Christ's resurrection, which is the first resurrection? And scripture says we have part in it spiritually.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life....10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

 

[Truther]

There will only be one part in the future first resurrection, it takes place in the twinkling of an eye, at the Lord's return (The End)

No, there are 2 parts...

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits(THE CHURCH); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(THE BEHEADED TRIB SAINTS).