22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truther]

We have our part in it spiritually by faith. Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin (which is repentance – a turning away from sin) and alive unto God through faith. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.

We see this great truth repeated many times in the book of Romans.

So, you think we are resurrected to die to resurrect?

Or, are we made alive spiritually via obeying Acts 2:38, qualifying us for the first resurrection after dying a physical death?

 

[covenantee]

Basic teaching….and you don’t get it?

If "in Jesus is different from in Christ" is basic teaching, you should be able to provide a name and verbatim quote of at least one recognized Bible teacher who espouses it.

Waiting for that name and verbatim quote.

 

[Truther]

Where does Revelation 19 say anything about the saints returning with Christ to the earth? I know the souls of the dead in Christ will be with Him and their bodies will be changed and made immortal, but it doesn't say anything about them going to the earth.

Also, please read the following which indicates that Christ's followers had already been made "priests of God and of Christ" before he wrote the book of Revelation:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

The timing of this passage should give you an indication of the timing of Revelation 20:6 as well. We need to use scripture to interpret scripture. Many people do not understand that concept, so they end up interpreting one verse or passage in such a way that contradicts others.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


The saints follow him to earth, correct?

 

[covenantee]

You wander off with words of distraction

To be saved and (Quickened) by God the Holy Spirit, has absolutely nothing to do with the word (Resurrection)

The poster WPM claiming in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) is a doctrine not found in scripture, it's that simple

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

Why are you afraid to answer a simple question?

Does "dead in trespasses and sins" refer to spiritual death or physical death?

 

[Truther]

You're making things up here. Paul did not indicate that the first resurrection is in 2 parts, he indicated that Christ's resurrection itself was the first (the context is the first unto bodily immortality). So, the resurrection of the dead in Christ that will occur at His second coming would be the second resurrection, not the first.

23 But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


The raptured saints per 1 Thes 4 are all the church age saints(dead and alive) per part 1.

The headless saints are part 2.

The end comes after these 2 parts of the first resurrection and the subsequent 1000 year reign.

To qualify yourself in the 1st part, you must obey Acts 2:38.

 

[Truther]

The first bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality was Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection. We don't have part in His resurrection bodily, we have part in it spiritually, as passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and parts of Romans 6 allude to.

The new heaven and new earth are inhabited by old saints with new bodies.

These are not rebuilt heavens, earth and saints. All brand new.

 

[WPM]

The first resurrection is this....


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Did you see that?

This event has not happened yet, but IS THE first resurrection.

But what about all the previous parts???

They are the takings, but not when the human spirit is united with the new body.

The spirit united with a new physical body is the official "first resurrection".

This means that the 1000 year millennial will not be reigned over by headless saints.

Aren't you also glad that the headless saints will reign in new bodies?

Oh, really? So, the first resurrection refers to "the rest of the dead" who lived after the thousand years are finished (1 presume after Satan's little season – 1000 years after the second coming)?

 

[Truth7t7]

This means that the 1000 year millennial will not be reigned over by headless saints.

Aren't you also glad that the headless saints will reign in new bodies?

No such thing found in scripture as a millennial kingdom on this earth "After" the return of Jesus in the heavens

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[WPM]

You wander off with words of distraction

To be saved and (Quickened) by God the Holy Spirit, has absolutely nothing to do with the word (Resurrection)

The poster WPM claiming in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) is a doctrine not found in scripture, it's that simple

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

Your issue is not just with Bible-believing Amils; it is with the Bible.

We have our part in it spiritually by faith. Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin (which is repentance – a turning away from sin) and alive unto God through faith. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.

We see this great truth repeated many times in the book of Romans.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why are you afraid to answer a simple question?

Does "dead in trespasses and sins" refer to spiritual death or physical death?

Your question has no relevance to the claim of a "Spiritual Resurrection", your responses have been a distraction from the topic

Is the moon really made of swiss cheese?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[WPM]

23 But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


The raptured saints per 1 Thes 4 are all the church age saints(dead and alive) per part 1.

The headless saints are part 2.

The end comes after these 2 parts of the first resurrection and the subsequent 1000 year reign.

To qualify yourself in the 1st part, you must obey Acts 2:38.

Where did you find this phrase "church age saints"?

 

[Truth7t7]

Your issue is not just with Bible-believing Amils; it is with the Bible.

We have our part in it spiritually by faith. Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin (which is repentance – a turning away from sin) and alive unto God through faith. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.

We see this great truth repeated many times in the book of Romans.

You claim in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) salvation?

Your teaching and doctrine isnt found in scripture, it's that simple

The word "Resurrection" relates directly to the literal bodily resurrection seen throughout scripture

You use this private interpretation to lay a false foundation for the words (First Resurrection) seen in Revelation 20:6 as being fulfilled at a believers "Salvation" wrong

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

 

[covenantee]

Your question has no relevance to the claim of a "Spiritual Resurrection", your responses have been a distraction from the topic

Is the moon really made of swiss cheese?

Jesus Is The Lord

Answer the question and I'll explain its relevance.

Don't be cowardly.

Does "dead in trespasses and sins" refer to spiritual death or physical death?

 

[WPM]

You claim in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) salvation?

Your teaching and doctrine isnt found in scripture, it's that simple

The word "Resurrection" relates directly to the literal bodily resurrection seen throughout scripture

You use this private interpretation to lay a false foundation for the words (First Resurrection) seen in Revelation 20:6 as being fulfilled at a believers "Salvation" wrong

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

Instead of always repeating what Scofield believes, how about addressing the sacred text and explain what the text says?

 

[Taken]

If "in Jesus is different from in Christ" is basic teaching,

Rom 3: (Paul)
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 10: (Paul)
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Thes 4: (Paul)
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Matt 16: (Jesus)
[15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Matt 16: (Simon Peter)
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matt: 16 (Jesus)
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:

for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (God)

Matt 16: (Jesus)
[20] Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Matt 16: (Jesus)
[18] And I (Jesus) say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God) I (Christ Jesus) will build my (Christ Jesus’)church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Thes 4: (Paul)
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

you should be able to provide a name and verbatim quote of at least one recognized Bible teacher who espouses it.
Waiting for that name and verbatim quote.

You should be able to figure out from Scripture:

Belief IN Jesus died, God raised Jesus Up….Shall God raise up that man.

Belief IN Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus died, God raised Jesus Up…and Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God….Shall the Lord raise up that man.

You should be able to figure from Scripture:
* God Requires a mans Bodily Death.
* Men are NOT RAISED UP, until AFTER Gods REQUIRED bodily Death.
* Men IN Jesus ARE Raised UP by God.
* Men IN Christ Jesus ARE Raised UP by the Lord Jesus.

You should be able to figure from Scripture:
WHEN…God Raises UP men IN Jesus.
WHEN…The Lord Raises UP men IN Christ Jesus.
You should be able to figure from Scripture WHY…
* WHY WHO raises WHO, and
* WHY of WHEN they are raised UP, and
* WHY to WHERE they are raised UP.

Some men BELIEVE in ONLY God.
Some men BELIEVE in God and Jesus Was a Prophet of God.
Some men BELIEVE in God and Jesus IS the Christ Messiah SENT By God.

In the END OF DAYS, EVERY INDIVIDUAL Man, SHALL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO “his own individual beliefs / works”….

Rom. 2:
[5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Matt 16:
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 6:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

A mans WORKS, satisfactory to GOD…
IS to BELIEVE on the One God SENT.

A mans WORKS, satisfactory to CHRIST…
IS to BELIEVE on the One Gods SENT IS JESUS the CHRIST.

You asked for a scenario, for me to give you SOME RANDOM MANS “beliefs”, as “verification” for my Beliefs.
Utterly Irrelevant what other men BELIEVE or TEACH.
My TEACHER IS the Lord Jesus, and the SAME Words, He TAUGHT TO His Disciples.

REMEMBER ??
Peter following along with Jesus?
When Peter was “WITH” Jesus, Peter Believed?
When Peter was “NOT in Jesus’ Presence”, out and about among the PEOPLE AT LARGE,
People said, Hey, you, you were with JESUS, and PETER DENIED even KNOWING Jesus?
WHY?
WHY was PETER afraid to ADMIT to have ANY Connection what-so-ever WITH Jesus?
FEAR…of his own BODILY LIFE to be ACCUSED of Believing “IN JESUS” being SENT BY GOD!
FEAR….of his own BODILY LIFE to be TREATED, Persecuted, Killed, for Knowing, Following, Believing IN Jesus.

Nothing NEW…For Centuries, Men have WARRED over and MEN have persecuted MEN for a mans CONFESSION OF BELIEF IN JESUS, and for a mans CONFESSION OF BELIEF IN JESUS IS THE CHRIST, the SON of the LIVING GOD.

Nothing NEW…TO THIS DAY, men in fear of men MIGHT BODILY KILL THEM….WILL confess DENIAL of their BELIEF IN Jesus, IN Christ…..

AND?
Nothing NEW…Scripture REPEATEDLY WARNS What a man Confesses with his Mouth, shall be the SAME the Lord God Shall BELIEVE and RESPOND accordingly.

Men who CONFESS their BELIEF, “IN JESUS”, Can and Do….MAKE additional CONFESSIONS of their DENIAL of JESUS….
AND? Forfeit their GIFT OF SALVATION…
THEY WOULD HAVE RECEIVED ON THE DAY OF THEIR BODILY DEATH.

Because REMEMBER….What a man confesses before other men is the Same the Lord will Confess to God, that which a man HAS confessed to other men.
AND REMEMBER….IF a man IS NOT with the Lord that man IS AGAINST the Lord.

IN Jesus….IS WITH Jesus….and a man CAN FALL AWAY, AND Jesus WILL LEAVE that man.

IN Christ Jesus…IS WITH”IN” Christ Jesus…and a man CAN NEVER FALL AWAY.
Christ’s SPIRIT (ie the Spirit of God), IS IN that man…That man FOREVER IS KEPT WITH Christ the Lord God, by the POWER of God IN that man. THAT men ‘IS SAVED” and can NEVER FALL AWAY. The Lord God can NEVER Leave THAT man.
The whole basis and meaning of the acronym … OSAS.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WPM]

Your question has no relevance to the claim of a "Spiritual Resurrection", your responses have been a distraction from the topic

Is the moon really made of swiss cheese?

Jesus Is The Lord

You totally avoided his question. That is who you are and that is what you do.

How is someone raised from spiritual death to spiritual life?

 

[Taken]

Gods order and way regarding the introduction of Messiah to the people came only through John the Baptist.

26 John answered them, “I baptize [only] in water, but among you there stands One whom you do not recognize and of whom you know nothing. 27 It is He [the preeminent One] who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie [even as His slave].” 28 These things occurred in Bethany across the Jordan [at the Jordan River crossing], where John was baptizing.

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I and has priority over me, for He existed before me.’ 31 I did not recognize Him [as the Messiah]; but I came baptizing in water so that He would be [publicly] revealed to Israel.” 32 John gave [further] evidence [testifying officially for the record, with validity and relevance], saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him [as the Messiah], but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this One is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have [actually] seen [that happen], and my testimony is that this is the Son of God!”

You base your comment on your advantage of hearing and learning MORE knowledge then who was present at John the Baptist’s Water Baptism of Jesus…saying One who would come AFTER John would Baptise men with the Holy Spirit….

To a Carnal MIND…He Present (Jesus) and He who comes AFtER Him (Christ)….makes no sense to a Carnal Mind….(they) Jesus and Christ ARE one in the SAME.

The Lord IS SPIRIT, unseen to mens EYES.
God Provided the Lord with a BODY men COULD SEE.

Christ IS the Spirit of God….Men can LEARN Jesus is the Christ….However…MEN ONLY SAW Jesus, because God prepared Him a BODY.
Men can KNOW Jesus IS the CHrISt….but Men DID NOT SEE Gods POWER/SPIRIT….

Men SEE the “Results” of Gods Power.
Gods POWER IS SPIRIT!

Baptism by Water IS SEEN by men.
Baptism by the Holy Spirit IS NOT SEEN by men.

 

[Truther]

Oh, really? So, the first resurrection refers to "the rest of the dead" who lived after the thousand years are finished (1 presume after Satan's little season – 1000 years after the second coming)?

The rest of the dead are folks that died without specific salvation up to the first resurrection. They resurrect at Rev 20:14 to be judged per their works.

The first resurrection is for the elect of God.

It happens at the return of Christ.

The saints of God are the only folks qualified to have part in it.

 

[WPM]

Your question has no relevance to the claim of a "Spiritual Resurrection", your responses have been a distraction from the topic

Is the moon really made of swiss cheese?

Jesus Is The Lord

When Paul says, “she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth” (1 Timothy 5:6), is this talking about spiritual death or physical death?

 

[Truther]

Where did you find this phrase "church age saints"?

I am communicating terminology that began here...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Which, you are a part of, correct?