22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes the verse below is showing the human mind there is no earthly time in the Lord's eternal spiritual (Thousand Years) isn't a literal number, just as it's not a literal number in Revelation chapter 20 "Be Not Ignorant"

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I don’t think you’re using that verse real well either. I mean, yes, it does show that God is not bound in time as we are, but the thrust of that verse is, in my opinion, that since God is not, as an eternal being, bound by time, we should understand that what seems like slowness to us is not slowness as related to an eternal being but is rather patience.
8 Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish…

You have disconnected the verse from its thrust and made your altered thrust to be a tool for your argument, in my opinion.

 

[WPM]

I think I disagree…I’ve used links before, if I think someone has explained something very, very well - maybe better than I could ever hope to. It does not necessarily mean I’m lazy if I do that. It means more that I admire the writers work and explanations and so I put the link up to credit where it came from.

I do not do links. It is impossible to engage with, or question, impersonal websites that normally just reinforce the same error the poster has just made, only in a more articulate manner. I count it an admission that the poster in question is stumped or out of their depth. This is a Premil trait, in my experience.

 

[Truth7t7]

I do not do links. It is impossible to engage with or question impersonal websites that normally just reinforce the same error the poster has just made, only in a more articulate manner. I count it an admission that the poster in question is stumped or out of their depth. This is a Premil trait, in my experience.

You deny a future AOD, Great Tribulation, and A Literal Human Man (The Beast) its my opinion your out of depth

To deny a future literal human man (The Beast) as seen in Revelation Chapter 13, the (Man Of Sin) seen in 2 Thessalonians 2, this is a great deception, "Scary"!

Those teaching falsely of a future Pre-Trib Rapture or Millennial Kingdom has "No Comparison" to the deception in denying this future literal human man, "No Comparison"!

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Yes WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future literal human man

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[RLT63]

I am not a Preterist. Can you not do your own research? Links show an ignorance of each subject.

I didn't say you were. The link is relevant to the conversation. If I want to know about anything I guess I can just ask you since you are a Bible scholar and authority on the end times. Which university do you teach at ?

 

[WPM]

I didn't say you were. The link is relevant to the conversation. If I want to know about anything I guess I can just ask you since you are a Bible scholar and authority on the end times. Which university do you teach at ?

I do not do links. It is a waste of time. Why can you not address the evidence? You seem to out of your depth here.

 

[Truth7t7]

I do not do links. It is a waste of time. Why can you not address the evidence? You seem to out of your depth here.

You deny a future AOD, Great Tribulation, and A Literal Human Man (The Beast) its my opinion your out of depth

To deny a future literal human man (The Beast) as seen in Revelation Chapter 13, the (Man Of Sin) seen in 2 Thessalonians 2, this is a great deception, "Scary"!

Those teaching falsely of a future Pre-Trib Rapture or Millennial Kingdom has "No Comparison" to the deception in denying this future literal human man, "No Comparison"!

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

 

[RLT63]

I do not do links. It is a waste of time. Why can you not address the evidence? You seem to out of your depth here.

And you seem to be full of yourself.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do not do links. It is a waste of time. Why can you not address the evidence? You seem to out of your depth here.

You are really going after this man as unlearned and ignorant. I don’t agree with your assessment of him and think he is bright, articulate, well read and quite capable with his mind, but even if I did agree with your assessment of him, what do you have that God didn’t give you?

I think what you see as unlearned and ignorant I see as a man loathe to enter into arrogant jousting.

Not going to get into argument, just saying I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And you seem to be full of yourself.

Knowledge puffs up but love builds up.

 

[WPM]

And you seem to be full of yourself.

If you had answers/arguments then you would give them. It is that simple. There is nothing to rebut in your posts apart from ad hominem, which is sadly a Premil default response. Address what others are presenting and then we can have a fruitful discussion.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh gosh sakes. I was looking with pleasure at having a few hours to talk with you all again. But I’m just finding biting and devouring….

 

[WPM]

You are really going after this man as unlearned and ignorant. I don’t agree with your assessment of him and think he is bright, articulate, well read and quite capable with his mind, but even if I did agree with your assessment of him, what do you have that God didn’t give you?

I think what you see as unlearned and ignorant I see as a man loathe to enter into arrogant jousting.

Not going to get into argument, just saying I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of him.

And my simple response related to (1) his ongoing failure to address issues when challenged (choosing rather to respond with outside links) and (2) his sarcasm (which you conveniently ignored): "If I want to know about anything I guess I can just ask you since you are a Bible scholar and authority on the end times. Which university do you teach at?"

Just because you are a Premil does not mean that you cannot be objective in your analyze.

 

[covenantee]

There are several passages in the Old Testament that clearly indicate animal sacrifice will be re-instituted during the millennial kingdom. Some passages mention it in passing as the topic of the millennial kingdom is discussed, passages like Isaiah 56:6-8; Zechariah 14:16; and Jeremiah 33:15-18.

The passage that is the most extensive, giving the greatest detail, is Ezekiel 43:18-46:24. It should be noted that this is part of a greater passage dealing with the millennial kingdom, a passage that begins with Ezekiel 40. In Ezekiel 40, the Lord begins to give details of the temple that will exist during the millennial kingdom, a temple that dwarfs all other temples previously built, even Herod’s temple that was quite large, which existed during the earthly ministry of Christ.

I'm stocked up on popcorn.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII

Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And my simple response related to (1) his ongoing failure to address issues when challenged (choosing rather to respond with outside links) and (2) his sarcasm (which you conveniently ignored): "If I want to know about anything I guess I can just ask you since you are a Bible scholar and authority on the end times. Which university do you teach at?"

Just because you are a Premil does not mean that you cannot be objective in your analyze.

His sarcasm came out after you were repeatedly arrogant with him. That’s the way the flesh works. We can be speaking well, tongue controlled, and without our flesh ruling us and another mans flesh teases and taunts and stirs up our own flesh. And that’s the way it is with all men until God weans them from their flesh and calms their passions.
I suspect he will walk away wiser to satans tactics and able to catch the war tactic quicker next time and you will remain the same if you don’t or can’t self examine. And no, I’m not saying you’re satan. I’m saying satan is adept at manipulating our flesh which then manipulates someone else’s flesh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

okay, so I’m not sure you’ve followed my conversation. 1. I’m not beholden to ANY eschatological framework at this point.

Okay. In past discussions you seemed to be firmly premillennial (and pre-trib? not sure).

2. It’s no more unlikely than a talking donkey.

In a sense that is completely likely because it actually happened. But, normally, that is extremely unlikely.

3. I’m not either or as you are. Not everything about prophetic passages must all ONLY be symbolic or all ONLY literal.

Did I say that prophetic passages must all only be symbolic or all only literal? No, I absolutely did not. So, why are you acting as if I did? I don't believe that. Obviously, some of the text is literal and some is symbolic. Everyone knows that (or should). We need to be able to differentiate between the symbolic and literal text and, obviously, we all think some are better at doing that than others.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But see, that’s not what I would say is a verse of symbolism. And, I don’t think you would think so either IF you weren’t so strenuously trying to argue a particular point. I do NOT have a problem with a…moving in and out of symbolism, like a portion being symbolic and a portion being not symbolic. Prophecy does work strangely and undulates between past, present and future and then back again.
But what you do here is, to my mind, trying to cram a size 10 foot into a size 6 shoe. The beasts are still beasts, the forest is still a forest, the cattle are still cattle, and the hills are still hills. The ONLY portion you say is symbolic is the number. So the ONLY part that’s symbolic is the part that you see as strengthening your argument. And, no one thinks there are ONLY a thousand hills on the whole earth. You don’t think that and neither do any men in here who see some things differently than you. So, as far as your arguments for and against things, this is not your strongest one. It’s pretty weak because, in my opinion, numbers standing for completely different numbers is not what symbolism is about nor how symbolism works.

And even when ten thousands of angels are mentioned, no one says, ah, ten thousands means there are ONLY 10,000 angels that exist.

Symbolism is more like…yeast being used to portray the teaching of men, 7 fat cows being 7 abundant years, 7 candlesticks portraying 7 churches, a bear being a symbol for an empire or country.
But because a bear is used as a symbol in one place does not mean when the young boys called out a taunt of, you baldy! You baldly! and a bear came out of the woods and ate them, it therefore has to mean it was actually not a bear but an empire that ate them. And because candlesticks were symbols for churches does not mean you replace every place where candlestick is mentioned with the word church.

You are getting bogged down in semantics here. Do you believe the word "thousand" is used literally in Psalm 50:10 or not? Is it talking about God owning the cattle on literally a thousand hills and not the rest of the hills or not? If not, then why can't the word "thousand" be used similarly in Revelation 20?

 

[WPM]

His sarcasm came out after you were repeatedly arrogant with him. That’s the way the flesh works. We can be speaking well, tongue controlled, and without our flesh ruling us and another mans flesh teases and taunts and stirs up our own flesh. And that’s the way it is with all men until God weans them from their flesh and calms their passions.
I suspect he will walk away wiser to satans tactics and able to catch the war tactic quicker next time and you will remain the same if you don’t or can’t self examine. And no, I’m not saying you’re satan. I’m saying satan is adept at manipulating our flesh which then manipulates someone else’s flesh.

I am here to engage in what Scripture teaches not trade insults. I do not agree with your conclusions.

 

[RLT63]

If you had answers/arguments then you would give them. It is that simple. There is nothing to rebut in your posts apart from ad hominem, which is sadly a Premil default response. Address what others are presenting and then we can have a fruitful discussion.

I've given my position. I don't feel the need to prove it to you. As I said, amillennialism is a valid view, but so is premillennialism. This issue has nothing to do with salvation so I don't feel the need to engage in useless back and forth with you. I just agree to disagree.

 

[WPM]

I've given my position. I don't feel the need to prove it to you. As I said, amillennialism is a valid view, but so is premillennialism. This issue has nothing to do with salvation so I don't feel the need to engage in useless back and forth with you. I just agree to disagree.

That is fine. But the reason for engaging on discussion forums is to do just that. So, it is not strange that i would press you to do so.

 

[RLT63]

That is fine. But the reason for engaging on discussion forums is to do just that. So, it is not strange that i would press you to do so.

Agreed. That's what discussion on forums is for and this is your thread.