22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Marty fox]

But there is a 70th week of Daniel that is determined upon the people of Daniel. The Church will already be in heaven when the tribulation takes place.


Ok. I had to set up several large conference calls to discuss this. I made video and answered all the questions. Went to tiktok and facebook and it went viral. Your comment started a huge worldwide discussion. Now everyone is demanding that I get a conclusion. So let me get this straight. Are you trying to me that there were no Three Stooges after Curly was replaced?

I love the 3 stooges lol

Yes the 70th week was upon Daniel’s people not the world

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, which I think you would know.

We agree Micah 4:1-3 and Isaiah 2:1-4 are parallel readings of the same place and event, however Isaiah Chater 2 gives a "full description" of what takes place "Prior" to the Kingdom seen

Verses 6-22 shows the events that will take place

Verses 1-5 Shows the Kingdom "After" the events have taken place, in (The Eternal Kingdom) revealed

The Kingdom seen where swords are beat into plowshares and spears into pruninghooks is (The Eternal Kingdom) this Kingdom is "After" the day of the Lord takes place as seen below and is a parallel reading of Revelation 6:15-17 in the "Great Day" of the Lord's "Wrath"

You will closely note in Isaiah 2:22 below, man's breath is taken away from his nostrils (The End)

Revelation 6:15-17KJV
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Isaiah 2:1-22KJV
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.
6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:
8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

 

[The Light]

Yes the 70th week was upon Daniel’s people not the world

Hasn't happened yet, outside of few days. Messiah was cut off after the 69th week.

 

[Truth7t7]

Symbolic? The 144,000 are symbolic of twelve thousand from each tribe just as it says. No need to try to make any guesses.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes the 70th week was upon Daniel’s people not the world

You promote the standard "preterist" reformed eschatology

Daniel's (Little Horn) Abomination In Desolation, A (Future) Event Unfulfilled

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hasn't happened yet, outside of few days. Messiah was cut off after the 69th week.

Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel's "Future" Seventy Literal Weeks Explained

Daniel's "Future" 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building to Messiah

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[The Light]

Through His glorious victory, we are qualified to sit with Him in heavenly places. Of course, that is our spiritual standing. We should never forget, there is a big difference between our standing and our state. Upon death, the dead in Christ know this heavenly reality as a state. They have overcome and now reign "in Christ." God also revealed Christ’s current reign to His servant John when He promised the obedient Laodiceans of Asia Minor in. Jesus confirms in Revelation 3:21: “To him that overcometh (present active particle) will I grant (future indicative active) to sit (aorist, active infinitive), with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am (aorist active indicative) set down with my Father in his throne.”

To him that overcometh is a future event just like.... Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown, is a future event. Let's not muddy the waters of truth.

Our position and authority in Christ is shown to be an accomplished fact. It has already happened. That position was attained for us through Jesus Christ. God enthroned us with Jesus in the heavenly realms when we were saved. Our position as believers is therefore one of joint-seating with Christ in heavenly places.

From this passage we explicitly see: Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured this through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Our Savior had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man - namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfill Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought. The resurrection is central to Christ’s current victorious reign. Through this and His current glorious heavenly reign, He has enabled those that die in Christ to reign with Him in glory.

Believers now function in all the benefits, blessings and authority that comes with being "in Christ." Christians literally and spiritually righteously reign with Jesus upon high (whether in spirit or in reality). They exercise divine power over the dark spiritual realm. The dead in Christ do not suddenly lose their authority upon death. No, rather, their position is enhanced as they rise to rule with Jesus. Basically, because He reigns we reign!

This kind of abstract reasoning is why so many do not understand the Word. Read what it says. It is when Jesus comes that we receive our rewards. This has not happened yet, but John sees the furture coming of Jesus that will occur in Revelation 4 and the end result is 24 elders around the throne with reward crowns.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfillment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

You need to just use some common sense. This is a future event. It is not disembodied spirits as proven by the 24 elders with reward crowns. Jesus has come and brought His reward with Him in the vision. This is the Church in heaven, a future event, that will happen before the seals are opened....just like it shows. Read what it says.

Revelation 20:4-5 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

This is talking about the intermediate state currently. The dead in Christ are shown to be no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Because Christ conquered we conquer, because He reigns we now reign. Notably, as Satan was banished from heaven, the elect were welcomed.

The reigning saints evidently continue to exist in the presence of God. Unbelievers on the other hand are separated from God during this current age. The wicked are cut off from God. Moreover, verse 4 depicts a picture of the righteous dead currently reigning with Christ in the heavenly abode in their disembodied state, whereas the wicked (who are identified as “the rest”) are simply described as “lived not.”

I don't even know what to say. I'll just leave it as you have totally confused yourself.[/quote]

 

[Marty fox]

You promote the standard "preterist" reformed eschatology

Daniel's (Little Horn) Abomination In Desolation, A (Future) Event Unfulfilled

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You probably have no idea of what I think the 70th week is so you don’t know what I promote.

 

[The Light]

Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel's "Future" Seventy Literal Weeks Explained

Daniel's "Future" 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building to Messiah

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Thanks for your comment. Your error is not understanding the translation of the Hebrew word shabuwa. This word can mean a period of 7 days or a period of 7 years which can be proven several places in the Old Testament one of which is when Jacob had to finish the week to get his chosen bride Rachel but worked 7 more years.

 

[The Light]

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

Stop it. The woman is the nation of Israel. The seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth. The 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe male virgins....just like it says. If you guys would quit making things up because you don't understand, you would probably begin to understand.

 

[The Light]

I love the 3 stooges lol

Yes the 70th week was upon Daniel’s people not the world

The 70th week has not occurred yet. The Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks of seven. There are 7 years remaining.

 

[CadyandZoe]

okay, stop right here. Show me the verses that you think say the church will not be present for any part of the tribulation.

And by the way, thanks for wanting to help me.

You are correct, in my opinion. Reference the second half of Revelation chapter 7.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The 70th week has not occurred yet. The Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks of seven. There are 7 years remaining.

The 70 weeks ran concurrently and ended at the stoning of Stephen, in my opinion.

 

[Truth7t7]

To him that overcometh is a future event just like.... Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown, is a future event. Let's not muddy the waters of truth.


This kind of abstract reasoning is why so many do not understand the Word. Read what it says. It is when Jesus comes that we receive our rewards. This has not happened yet, but John sees the furture coming of Jesus that will occur in Revelation 4 and the end result is 24 elders around the throne with reward crowns.



You need to just use some common sense. This is a future event. It is not disembodied spirits as proven by the 24 elders with reward crowns. Jesus has come and brought His reward with Him in the vision. This is the Church in heaven, a future event, that will happen before the seals are opened....just like it shows. Read what it says.
I don't even know what to say. I'll just leave it as you have totally confused yourself.

I fully agree they are future events, however many are blinded by reformed preterist eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment

 

[Truth7t7]

The 70 weeks ran concurrently and ended at the stoning of Stephen, in my opinion.

IMO the literal 70 weeks are future, and will start at a future command to build a wall and street in Jerusalem

 

[Truth7t7]

You are correct, in my opinion. Reference the second half of Revelation chapter 7.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[Truth7t7]

The 70th week has not occurred yet. The Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks of seven. There are 7 years remaining.

69 weeks, then a 2,000 year "magical gap" and waiting for a future event in a 70th week, thats man made make believe

 

[Truth7t7]

Thanks for your comment. Your error is not understanding the translation of the Hebrew word shabuwa. This word can mean a period of 7 days or a period of 7 years which can be proven several places in the Old Testament one of which is when Jacob had to finish the week to get his chosen bride Rachel but worked 7 more years.

Daniel's "Future" 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years) He Didn't

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology

 

[Truth7t7]

You probably have no idea of what I think the 70th week is so you don’t know what I promote.

If my memory serves me right, you believe (Antiochus IV Epiphanies) fulfilled the 70th week in Daniel's abomination in roughly 167BC, correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[CadyandZoe]

IMO the literal 70 weeks are future, and will start at a future command to build a wall and street in Jerusalem

Well, why aren't you convinced that the 70 weeks took place in the past?