22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

You have? Where? I'm pretty sure that you have never shown anything from scripture that explains why animal sacrifices would be performed in the future. You may have offered speculations as to why that would be the case, but that doesn't mean anything without scriptural support.

I'm sorry you missed it.

Here is a link Post # 4970

 

[WPM]

When I was asked to give scriptures to prove my case, I didn't offer Ezekiel 45 because some believe this section of Ezekiel is hypothetical. So I offered the book of Deuteronomy.

Do you believe Ezekiel 40-48 is historic or future in your millennium?

 

[WPM]

When I was asked to give scriptures to prove my case, I didn't offer Ezekiel 45 because some believe this section of Ezekiel is hypothetical. So I offered the book of Deuteronomy.

But none of the passages that you presented in Deuteronomy mention a future millennium or even mention animal sacrifices. That is what is so ridiculous about your teaching. It is totally devoid of scriptural support. It is heresy to deny the finished work of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When I was asked to give scriptures to prove my case, I didn't offer Ezekiel 45 because some believe this section of Ezekiel is hypothetical.

Is that what you believe as well about that passage? Why would you care what others think about it when you are trying to prove your own case?

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have still not presented one single Old Testament Scripture text here that shows "that the temple sacrifices (among other religious practices) mark the people of God as Holy People." There is nothing there that states that was the purpose for these blood sacrifices.

I did you are ignoring them.

None of Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2, 28:9, 30:6-8 teach that ceremonial rituals make one holy.

I disagree because unlike you I know that such things were commanded by God.

None of these even mention animal sacrifices or sin offerings never mind describe the meaning of them in the old covenant.

This is not a problem for my view, because unlike you, I don't need the Bible to tell me that 2 + 2 = 4. It goes without saying, that when God says he will bring his people into the land and they will keep his commandments, this includes animal sacrifices, which are included among the commandments. With regard to Jewish praxis, God expects obedience of ALL of his commandments, ordinances, and statutes. God doesn't care about your goofy distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But none of the passages that you presented in Deuteronomy mention a future millennium or even mention animal sacrifices. That is what is so ridiculous about your teaching. It is totally devoid of scriptural support. It is heresy to deny the finished work of Christ.

This is typical of your response, which is growing tiresome. You asked me for scriptural support. I gave it. If you disagree with my interpretation then give me a logical argument from the text of Deuteronomy, explaining your objection.

Your objection is totally bogus and not worthy of consideration. Why? Because the alternative is impossible. Why would anyone expect to find every Biblical idea in every Biblical passage? Who do you know who believes this? Is this how you read every other book? You expect the author to repeat ideas that are already expressed and understood? You can do better than this, right?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Really?

What about your proof text?

Ezekiel 45:15-17 says: “And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation [Heb. Kaphar] for them, saith the Lord GOD. All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel. And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation [Heb. Kaphar] for the house of Israel.”

There is nothing in this text that would give us any grounds to place this old covenant custom in a future millennial earth. What possible benefit could the widespread slaughter of innocent animals secure to reconcile mankind unto God? There is no evidence here that God would restore this bloodbath after the second coming under the guise of “the trespass offering,” “the meat offering,” “burnt offerings,” “peace offerings,” “meat offerings,” “drink offerings” and “sin offering” to reconcile anyone or anything before God.

On the Day of Atonement once a year the High Priest would make scarifies for his own sin, the sin of his family and Israel’s sin. Atonement is a very common word in the Old Testament but the word “propitiation” is preferred in the New Testament. The Hebrew word means Kaphar carries the basic idea of covering over. The Greek word used in the Greek Old Testament to interpret this word means appeasement or satisfaction, specifically toward God. It carries the sense of pacify, placate, expiate or cancel. It is typically interpreted “atonement” or “reconciliation” by the translators throughout the Old Testament. But, cover, pacify, placate, expiate or cancel what? The sin of the people that the sacrifice was made for.

I don't have a "proof text". Why do you always talk to people in the third person. If you wonder why people are insulted by your posts, this is one reason. When talking to individuals, try speaking directly to them and the points they make. Another people find offensive is your use of strawman arguments, putting words in the mouths of people, claiming that they teach 'X' when they said no such thing.

Question for you, since you raised the issue. Did you know that it was unlawful for the Prince to offer the sacrifices? Why do you suppose the people will bring their sacrifices to the prince during the Millennial period?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm sorry you missed it.

Here is a link Post # 4970

In fairness to myself, there are over 5,000 posts in this thread. I think it's understandable if I've missed a few. Anyway, the book of Deuteronomy has absolutely nothing to do with future animal sacrifices, so it's beyond me as to why you'd use scripture from that book to support your belief in future animal sacrifices.

Do you believe that Ezekiel 40-48 supports your belief in future animal sacrifices?

This is typical of your response, which is growing tiresome. You asked me for scriptural support. I gave it. If you disagree with my interpretation then give me a logical argument from the text of Deuteronomy, explaining your objection.

Do you believe that the scriptures you referenced in Deuteronomy refer to a future Millennium after the return of Christ? If so, where is there any indication of that? If not, then why are you using scriptures from that book to support your belief in future animal sacrifices when that book doesn't even refer to them?

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is a ridiculous analogy. If you showed a scripture passage that clearly indicated that there will be animal sacrifices performed during a future millennial kingdom we would believe it. Why are you acting as if our mindsets are no different than atheists? That is offensive.

I am calling balls and strikes as I see them.

Do they also believe and understand the NT? Because no one who properly believes and understands the NT can be convinced by your arguments.

Well, I learned a long time ago that it is impossible for me to change anyone's mind. And according to you, I don't express myself very well. So why do I post in threads like this? I take benefit from the process. Who else is going to challenge me as hard and as thoroughly as you do? If I never told you, I appreciate our exchanges, not because we agree, but because you strongly disagree with me and push my arguments hard enough to cause me to study and learn. I never expect to change anyone's mind. I'm here to learn, and I learn by doing.

So then, I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of my understanding and my knowledge of the Bible. And I'm sorry that I am unclear and misleading. I wish I could do better and I strive to do better. And I appreciate the challenge you present to me. So keep it up and don't give up. I'm almost certain that you would argue just as hard for Premillennialism if you believed that. :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am calling balls and strikes as I see them.

If you were an umpire in a league that I was in charge of, you would be fired.

Well, I learned a long time ago that it is impossible for me to change anyone's mind. And according to you, I don't express myself very well.

I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. If that offends you then I will refrain from saying things like that. I only said things like that to explain why I'm not understanding what you're saying sometimes.

So why do I post in threads like this? I take benefit from the process. Who else is going to challenge me as hard and as thoroughly as you do? If I never told you, I appreciate our exchanges, not because we agree, but because you strongly disagree with me and push my arguments hard enough to cause me to study and learn. I never expect to change anyone's mind. I'm here to learn, and I learn by doing.

That sounds good to me. I appreciate that. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I have a problem with it when someone doesn't even attempt to defend their claims and address challenges made to their claims.

So then, I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of my understanding and my knowledge of the Bible.

It is what it is. Nothing to feel sorry about it.

And I'm sorry that I am unclear and misleading.

You don't have to apologize as long as you're making the effort. If you're trying and I still can't figure out what you're saying, so be it. It happens.

I wish I could do better and I strive to do better. And I appreciate the challenge you present to me. So keep it up and don't give up. I'm almost certain that you would argue just as hard for Premillennialism if you believed that. :)

Well, I did believe it at one time, but didn't really argue for it. But, I didn't study Revelation 20 much back then, either. I was more focused on defending the post-trib rapture view against pre-trib back then. But, of course, I would argue for Premil as hard as I do Amil if that's what I believed even after doing a lot of study.

 

[WPM]

I did you are ignoring them.
I disagree because unlike you I know that such things were commanded by God.
This is not a problem for my view, because unlike you, I don't need the Bible to tell me that 2 + 2 = 4. It goes without saying, that when God says he will bring his people into the land and they will keep his commandments, this includes animal sacrifices, which are included among the commandments. With regard to Jewish praxis, God expects obedience of ALL of his commandments, ordinances, and statutes. God doesn't care about your goofy distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law.

Exactly! In your thinking: you do not need the Bible to say something for you to believe it or promote it. You just have to think it up. That totally sums up your theology. It is heretical and it must be resisted. You are totally devoid of scriptural support. Nothing that you have presented supports your ridiculous claims. Your repudiation of biblical corroboration and your denial that Jesus is the final sacrifice for sin is shameful.

You cannot address the biblical responses Amils present because they forbid your beliefs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't have a "proof text". Why do you always talk to people in the third person. If you wonder why people are insulted by your posts, this is one reason.

Can you explain what you meant by this? I don't see where he was speaking in the third person in his post. I see he referenced "your proof text". Is there something wrong with that wording? Or is your point that you don't use Ezekiel 45:15-17 to support your belief?

 

[WPM]

I don't have a "proof text". Why do you always talk to people in the third person. If you wonder why people are insulted by your posts, this is one reason. When talking to individuals, try speaking directly to them and the points they make. Another people find offensive is your use of strawman arguments, putting words in the mouths of people, claiming that they teach 'X' when they said no such thing.

Question for you, since you raised the issue. Did you know that it was unlawful for the Prince to offer the sacrifices? Why do you suppose the people will bring their sacrifices to the prince during the Millennial period?

Do you believe that Ezekiel 40-48 teaches future millennial animal sacrifices?

 

[Truth7t7]

What you state is not addressing what I am highlighting/asking. Are we now in “the times of the Gentiles”? If this is the case then the tribulation in view in our discussion must assuredly be an historic event, not a future hope. I am asking you specifically about this time of the Gentiles. What is it? When does it arrive, the great tribulation lasts right up until the climatic return of Christ?

Yes the time of the gentiles and the great tribulation seen in Luke 21:24-28 is future, as you have been shown several times

Scripture teaches that the future fulfilling of the gentiles is when Jerusalem will be surrounded by future armies and trodden under foot, this takes place after Daniel's future AOD, I don't claim to know the exact time of its arrival

Yes scripture teaches Jesus returns immediately after the future 3.5 year tribulation, Matthew 24:29-31

Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, you are admitting that your theological claims do not make sense if you place the GT at the end?

• Israel cannot be "led away captive into all nations" after your GT because the end will be there?
• Jerusalem cannot be trodden down of the Gentiles" because the end will be there?
• The "times of the Gentiles" must therefore be fulfilled” now?

There will be a future 3.5 year tribulation "Before The End" during this time Jerusalem will be trodden down fulfilling the gentiles, it's simple and clearly explained

1.) Daniel's future AOD takes place, the bad guy is revealed to the world

2.) At this time 3.5 Tribulation starts, and during this 3.5 years the fulfilling g of the gentiles takes place

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There will be a future 3.5 year tribulation "Before The End" during this time Jerusalem will be trodden down fulfilling the gentiles, it's simple and clearly explained

1.) Daniel's future AOD takes place, the bad guy is revealed to the world

2.) At this time 3.5 Tribulation starts, and during this 3.5 years the fulfilling g of the gentiles takes place

Fulfilling of the Gentiles? What does that have to do with Luke 21:24? The times of the Gentiles refers to the times during which the Gentiles would trample on Jerusalem. Has nothing to do with "fulfilling the Gentiles".

 

[WPM]

Yes the time of the gentiles and the great tribulation seen in Luke 21:24-28 is future, as you have been shown several times

Scripture teaches that the future fulfilling of the gentiles is when Jerusalem will be surrounded by future armies and trodden under foot, this takes place after Daniel's future AOD, I don't claim to know the exact time of its arrival

Yes scripture teaches Jesus returns immediately after the future 3.5 year tribulation, Matthew 24:29-31

Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So, what does the time of the Gentiles refer to? What marks the beginning of the time of the Gentiles? What marks the end of the time of the Gentiles?

 

[WPM]

There will be a future 3.5 year tribulation "Before The End" during this time Jerusalem will be trodden down fulfilling the gentiles, it's simple and clearly explained

1.) Daniel's future AOD takes place, the bad guy is revealed to the world

2.) At this time 3.5 Tribulation starts, and during this 3.5 years the fulfilling g of the gentiles takes place

So, what does it mean that Israel is "led away captive into all nations"? And, to where are they lead captive and for how long?

 

[Truth7t7]

Fulfilling of the Gentiles? What does that have to do with Luke 21:24? The times of the Gentiles refers to the times during which the Gentiles would trample on Jerusalem. Has nothing to do with "fulfilling the Gentiles".

Ok please make your claim, support with scripture, waiting

 

[Truth7t7]

So, what does it mean that Israel is "led away captive into all nations"? And, to where are they lead captive and for how long?

Don't really claim to know, but it takes place after Daniel's future AOD