22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

I'm not worried about being damned by you. I stand by what I said. The Bible certainly does not interpret itself as some claim. And the idea that scripture interprets scripture is not a holy truth that defines faith or belief. No one is going to hell based on the hermeneutics one should adopt. Your language about being damned for one's hermeneutics cheapens the grave nature of God's will concerning evil and punishment, and the Lord's teaching concerning grace and salvation.

I was talking about your theology, not you. Read it again.

 

[WPM]

Sure they do. But you didn't ask about meaning. Your argument is that I can't find exact, one-for-one correspondence between them.


Yes, it does. Zechariah 14 says that the Lord reigns over the nations. So does Revelation 20.

No, it doesn't. As @Truther has said, The Second Advent is depicted in Revelation 19. Revelation 20 opens with the binding of Satan, and the establishment of a formal government.

Negative. We already talked about this. Jesus comes at the beginning of the Day of the Lord; The big woosh doesn't take place until the end of the Day of the Lord..

There are so many posts on this forum that have been ducked and dived around that have totally demolished your theology. Like most Premillennialist, when your position is exposed you run from the conversation. You have to. I refer you back to the multiple posts that have been avoided. I'm not going to start repeating them.

I has gone, but not forever.

1. Do you believe in the rebuilding of the demolished Jewish temple in your so-called future millennium?
2. Do you advocate the return of animal sacrifices as sin offerings in the future in your so-called future millennium?
3. Do you hold to the restoration of the old covenant priesthood in your so-called future millennium.

I stand by what I said. Interpreting scripture with scripture may be an elementary core hermeneutic among Christians living today, but then, most Christians don't believe the core gospel either. The scripture with scripture hermeneutic has resulted in most if not all the false doctrine being promoted today.

First, I don't think I have ever told you what hermeneutic I use. So your criticism is empty. Secondly, imposing bias is natural and everyone does it, which is why the best, most beneficial hermeneutic has techniques to eliminate bias. You're hermeneutic does not. Essentially, interpreting scripture with scripture is nothing more than reading a biased interpretation of one passage into another passage. This hermeneutic has no self-correcting aspect, which is why it is prone to error and false doctrine.

From my standpoint, from what you just said, you have admitted that you have no answer for my objection. Zechariah 14 clearly and unambiguously describes the Lord ruling over his enemies, who must come to Jerusalem, once each year, to celebrate the feast of booths. You have no answer for this, which is why you make up stuff about me.

I agree with all three statements here. The central question concerning the inerrancy of scripture can not be answered through the process of eisegesis, which is the result of the Hermeneutic you profess. Any comparison between two passages of scripture must first understand each passage individually, according to the principle of authorial intent, and from within the context of the subject text, before the process of comparison begins.

Interpreting Scripture with scripture does not hold to that principle. One who attempts to interpret scripture with scripture often times reads an interpretation of a New Testament text into an Old Testament text, essentially reading one's own ideas into the Old Testament. But those who examine the OT in context, searching for the meaning that the original author intended, then one is better able to compare the two texts without bias.


If one believes what you believe and they use your hermeneutic, they can't avoid seeing it everywhere in the Bible. It's like those who wear rose colored glasses that see pink everywhere.


Of course. But he does NOT expect us to interpret scripture with scripture. Big difference.

Your position on biblical interpretation is ridiculous. It is unscriptural.

 

[WPM]

Where?

Zechariah 12:10 says, “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

John 19:30-37 says, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

This passage correlates with Zechariah 12:2-3, which says, “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.”

Jesus said in Matthew 23:37–39: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress (anagke) in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Zechariah 13:6 says, “And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.”

John 19:5-7 records, “Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man! When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.”

John 1:10-11 says, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”

Acts 2:36 says, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 4:10 states, “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.”

Acts 3:26 records, “Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

Zechariah 13, v7, states, “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”

Zechariah 14:5 predicts, “ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

I believe, we see a reference to the earthly ministry of Christ and particularly His final betrayal. Matthew 26:31 says, “Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.”

In Mark 14 we see an account of the arrest of Christ for crucifixion. Even those nearest and dearest to Him could not stand with Him at this dark hour. Verse 50 tells us: “And they all forsook him, and fled.”

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

John 4:10, 14: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ... But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The living waters is the Holy Spirit. The former sea represents Old Testament Israel and the hinder sea represents the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament Church. It figuratively represents the Gospel going out to the Jews and the Gentiles through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Since you decline to link to it, there's nothing to understand.

I don't need to link to it. I can explain it in a few sentences if you cared to ask.

Who else declares that Scripture should never be used to interpret Scripture?

What does that matter? The truth of a matter is not determined by consensus. A truth is true whether or not anyone believes it or accepts it. Truth stands alone and apart from mankind.

As for the hermeneutics in question, consider a related and common "interpretation rule" that is also prone to failure. I found this statement on a Reformed website. "So what do we really mean when we say “Scripture interprets Scripture?” In short, it means that as we engage in hermeneutics (the art of interpretation), we interpret the implicit by the explicit and the cloudy through the clear. The clear passages of Scripture that speak of justification by grace through faith in Christ (the central theme of the Bible) are used to interpret more difficult passages."

This sounds good but upon closer examination this idea doesn't hold up under use. Granted, some passages are clear, while others are a bit cloudy, but one must assume, a priori, that a particular "cloudy" passage is informed by a particular "clear" passage. This interpretive decision hides an unexamined judgment about a text that might be true but it might be false. To think that clear passage 'A' legitimately informs unclear passage 'B' might be an unwarranted conclusion that can't be tested or verified. It would be better to leave an unclear passage unclear, than assign the wrong meaning to it.

 

[WPM]

Where?

Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Isaiah 53:11-12 says, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Christ confirms the meaning of these Old Testament prophecies in Luke 11, when He alludes to Zechariah 14, whilst speaking of His own assault upon Satan and his dark kingdom. Jesus said, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man (Satan) armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him (namely Jesus), he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, “when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives.”

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.”

Zechariah 14:9: “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

Luke 19:36-38 says, “And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.”

John 12:12-15 parallels saying: "On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt."

As the Lord’s ministry came to an end on earth we see Him entering into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey. He received the adoration of the people. Matthew 21:1: "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee...But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude"

Listen to Christ’s response to Pilate’s question in John 18:36-37. Pilate asked: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

He is risen and He is reigning! He is ruling over everything! This is happening right now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tenses involved.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

Christ sovereignly reigns in kingly power over all creation.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28, saying: “he must reign (present tense), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (present tense) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:6-8 says, “God … hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ‘Thou hast put all things in subjection’ (present tense) under his feet. For in that ‘he put all in subjection’ (present tense) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Here we see our Lord’s awesome authority.

 

[WPM]

I don't need to link to it. I can explain it in a few sentences if you cared to ask.

What does that matter? The truth of a matter is not determined by consensus. A truth is true whether or not anyone believes it or accepts it. Truth stands alone and apart from mankind.

As for the hermeneutics in question, consider a related and common "interpretation rule" that is also prone to failure. I found this statement on a Reformed website. "So what do we really mean when we say “Scripture interprets Scripture?” In short, it means that as we engage in hermeneutics (the art of interpretation), we interpret the implicit by the explicit and the cloudy through the clear. The clear passages of Scripture that speak of justification by grace through faith in Christ (the central theme of the Bible) are used to interpret more difficult passages."

This sounds good but upon closer examination this idea doesn't hold up under use. Granted, some passages are clear, while others are a bit cloudy, but one must assume, a priori, that a particular "cloudy" passage is informed by a particular "clear" passage. This interpretive decision hides an unexamined judgment about a text that might be true but it might be false. To think that clear passage 'A' legitimately informs unclear passage 'B' might be an unwarranted conclusion that can't be tested or verified. It would be better to leave an unclear passage unclear, than assign the wrong meaning to it.

That is because you do not have any hermeneutics. You wing it. You perform eisegesis.

 

[Truth7t7]

Zechariah 14 speaks about the coming of the Lord to rule over the entire earth. Absent is a big woosh, heard when the world is destroyed. In fact, the defeated nations come year-to-year to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of booths. The earth is not destroyed the moment when the Messiah comes to earth. This fact is established in Zechariah 14. No climatic woosh at the coming of the Lord.

Now, put this fact next to 2 Peter 3:10. Knowing that the coming of the Messiah is NOT attended by the big woosh, it seems reasonable to me that the Day of the Lord is a much longer time span, which includes the big woosh at the end.

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Truth7t7]

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.



This is one of the most alarming (and reprehensible) statements I have ever read from "a Christian" on an online discussion forum. It is scandalous, especially purporting to come from a Pastor. Shame on you for saying this! This is an elementary core hermeneutic principle that you trash. Notwithstanding, this uncovers what all Amils already know about your school of thought - Premil enjoys no biblical support. You just wing it! This statement embodies exactly what Premillennialism is. Your hermeneutics are all over the place. They are inconsistent and contradictory. You make it up as you go. That is why you believe what you do. Amillennialists have a different approach. They work from the core principle of supporting Scripture with Scripture.

Imposing your bias school of thought on a Scripture text is wrong. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scriptures. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. If we employ this interpretive rule, I believe, one cannot but arrive at any other conclusion than the coming of Christ is climactic and ushers in eternity.

2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of false teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.

False Claims Found In Reformed Preterist Eschatology In 66-70AD Fulfillment

Zechariah 14 had absolutely nothing to do with your preterist claims, winging it again with 66-70AD fulfillment, Smiles!

Perhaps you need to understand post #4687 above, they are literal future events unfulfilled

 

[CadyandZoe]

There are so many posts on this forum that have been ducked and dived around that have totally demolished your theology. Like most Premillennialist, when your position is exposed you run from the conversation. You have to. I refer you back to the multiple posts that have been avoided. I'm not going to start repeating them.

1. Do you believe in the rebuilding of the demolished Jewish temple in your so-called future millennium?
2. Do you advocate the return of animal sacrifices as sin offerings in the future in your so-called future millennium?
3. Do you hold to the restoration of the old covenant priesthood in your so-called future millennium.

Your position on biblical interpretation is ridiculous. It is unscriptural.

The Bible contains no explicit teaching on hermeneutics. Nonetheless, by example we learn how Jesus our Lord treated the Hebrew Bible and how he used it to teach, correct, reprove, and encourage his followers and his own people.

Consider our Lord's teaching on divorce, found in Matthew 19. In that context Jesus brings the Pharisees to a passage that predates the Mosaic Law, and interestingly enough, both he and the Pharisees shared the same interpretation of the Genesis passage. He begins his explanation with the phrase, "have you not read . . .?" inferring that the Pharisees were the beneficiaries of individual, personal study and were already familiar with the passage. He is able to argue from the scriptures because he, and they read the passage separately and they both came to the same conclusion.

As for the temple, the prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord will enter the temple through the East Gate, and he will make the temple complex his home. This will be hard to do without a temple.

Unlike your view, Jesus did not put a NT spin on the scriptures when he corrected his people. He taught them from the scriptures as they stand, according to what the original author intended by his words.

 

[covenantee]

I don't need to link to it. I can explain it in a few sentences if you cared to ask.

What does that matter? The truth of a matter is not determined by consensus. A truth is true whether or not anyone believes it or accepts it. Truth stands alone and apart from mankind.

As for the hermeneutics in question, consider a related and common "interpretation rule" that is also prone to failure. I found this statement on a Reformed website. "So what do we really mean when we say “Scripture interprets Scripture?” In short, it means that as we engage in hermeneutics (the art of interpretation), we interpret the implicit by the explicit and the cloudy through the clear. The clear passages of Scripture that speak of justification by grace through faith in Christ (the central theme of the Bible) are used to interpret more difficult passages."

This sounds good but upon closer examination this idea doesn't hold up under use. Granted, some passages are clear, while others are a bit cloudy, but one must assume, a priori, that a particular "cloudy" passage is informed by a particular "clear" passage. This interpretive decision hides an unexamined judgment about a text that might be true but it might be false. To think that clear passage 'A' legitimately informs unclear passage 'B' might be an unwarranted conclusion that can't be tested or verified. It would be better to leave an unclear passage unclear, than assign the wrong meaning to it.

Do you think that there are any cloudy passages in Scripture that are informed by clear passages?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I was talking about your theology, not you. Read it again.

You said my theology was damnable. In case you didn't know, when someone says that a particular theology is damnable, this is short hand for "anyone who believes such-and-such a doctrine is anathema, to be considered an unbeliever."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Zechariah 12:10 says, “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

I guess I need to remind you of the question. I asked you to show me where Zechariah spoke about 70AD. So far, nada.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is because you do not have any hermeneutics. You wing it. You perform eisegesis.

Projection. You didn't mention eisegesis before I accused you of it. You accuse me of what you do.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Where is the fire in the passage. I don't see fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

• 2 Peter 3:10 relates to the second coming and is climactic.
• Zechariah 14 relates to the First Advent, and also refers to AD70, and the awful result of Israel's rejection of Christ.

Your preterist claim is "False"

(The Day Of The Lord) seen in 2 Peter 3:10 & Zechariah 14:1 are the same exact future event of the "Second Coming"

The Lord's fire in final judgement is seen in Zechariah 14:12 as men are consumed by the Lord's fire as they are standing

You acknowledge a future literal fire in destruction seen in 2 Peter 3:10 (The Day Of The Lord) but you completely disregard and ignore Zechariah 14:12 and the destruction seen as man is consumed standing on (The Day Of The Lord)

Will you continue to ignore this biblical truth, and replace it falsely with your preterist fulfillment?

WPM claims Zechariah 14 refers to the Lord's first advent and 70AD? "False"!

Zechariah 14 is "Future Unfulfilled"

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you think that there are any cloudy passages in Scripture that are informed by clear passages?

We are talking about the technique of Hermeneutics. I think I can say without question that there are cloudy passages that are informed by clear ones. But, and this is the point, I can't assume, from the outset that 1) all the clear passages are in the NT, 2) all the cloudy passages are in the OT, 3) cloudy OT passages MUST be clarified by NT passages, 4) that clarification must be found elsewhere in the Bible rather than, say new archeological information. I definitely can't argue that a particular NT passage clarifies a particular OT passage if the alleged clarification makes no sense within the broader context of established Biblical themes.

In my experience, many of the so-called "clarifications" of the OT are actually misinterpretations of both the NT passage and the OT passage. For this reason, one should guard against both. One can not claim to have clarified the OT by using the NT unless one has properly interpreted the NT.

 

[WPM]

The Bible contains no explicit teaching on hermeneutics. Nonetheless, by example we learn how Jesus our Lord treated the Hebrew Bible and how he used it to teach, correct, reprove, and encourage his followers and his own people.

Consider our Lord's teaching on divorce, found in Matthew 19. In that context Jesus brings the Pharisees to a passage that predates the Mosaic Law, and interestingly enough, both he and the Pharisees shared the same interpretation of the Genesis passage. He begins his explanation with the phrase, "have you not read . . .?" inferring that the Pharisees were the beneficiaries of individual, personal study and were already familiar with the passage. He is able to argue from the scriptures because he, and they read the passage separately and they both came to the same conclusion.

As for the temple, the prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord will enter the temple through the East Gate, and he will make the temple complex his home. This will be hard to do without a temple.

Unlike your view, Jesus did not put a NT spin on the scriptures when he corrected his people. He taught them from the scriptures as they stand, according to what the original author intended by his words.

1. Do you advocate the return of animal sacrifices as sin offerings in the future in your so-called future millennium?
2. Do you hold to the restoration of the old covenant priesthood in your so-called future millennium.

 

[WPM]

You said my theology was damnable. In case you didn't know, when someone says that a particular theology is damnable, this is short hand for "anyone who believes such-and-such a doctrine is anathema, to be considered an unbeliever."

I repeat: this is totally damning and exposing at the one time to his theology. No Christian should ever say this.

 

[WPM]

I guess I need to remind you of the question. I asked you to show me where Zechariah spoke about 70AD. So far, nada.

Zechariah 14:2-3 says, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.”

Paul the Apostle outlines this fact, when speaking of the Jews and the impending wrath of God on the nation of Israel, in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”

 

[Truth7t7]

As for the temple, the prophet Ezekiel says that the Lord will enter the temple through the East Gate, and he will make the temple complex his home. This will be hard to do without a temple.

Unlike your view, Jesus did not put a NT spin on the scriptures when he corrected his people. He taught them from the scriptures as they stand, according to what the original author intended by his words.

Ezekiel prophesied of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple built in 536BC, after the 70 year Babylonian Captitity, Your suggestion Ezekiel's Temple is future is "False"