22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Even Tertullian the early Church father who was Chiliast recognized Zechariah 14 as an historic passage fulfilled at the first advent, saying, “But ‘at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]." ("Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL)

The splitting of the Mount of Olives was so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. It is also like God's people passing through the Red Sea.

Eusebius position on the Zechariah 14:4 is also in agreement: “Which it is possible for us to see literally fulfilled in another way even to-day, since believers in Christ all congregate from all parts of the world, not as of old time because of the glory of Jerusalem, nor that they may worship in the ancient Temple at Jerusalem, but they rest there that they may learn both about the city being taken and devastated as the prophets foretold, and that they may worship at the Mount of Olives opposite to the city, whither the glory of the Lord migrated when it left the former city. There stood in truth according to the common and received account the feet of our Lord and Saviour, Himself the Word of God, through that tabernacle of humanity He had borne up the Mount of Olives to the cave that is shewn there; there He prayed and delivered to His disciples on the summit of the Mount of Olives the mysteries of His end, and thence He made His Ascension into heaven, as Luke tells us in the Acts of the Apostles, saying that while the apostles were with Him on the Mount of Olives.”

He adds: “While they beheld he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight. And as they gazed steadfastly into heaven while he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven? This same Jesus that is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

 

[Truther]

Even Tertullian the early Church father who was Chiliast recognized Zechariah 14 as an historic passage fulfilled at the first advent, saying, “But ‘at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]." ("Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL)

The splitting of the Mount of Olives was so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. It is also like God's people passing through the Red Sea.

Eusebius position on the Zechariah 14:4 is also in agreement.
“Which it is possible for us to see literally fulfilled in another way even to-day, since believers in Christ all congregate from all parts of the world, not as of old time because of the glory of Jerusalem, nor that they may worship in the ancient Temple at Jerusalem, but they rest there that they may learn both about the city being taken and devastated as the prophets foretold, and that they may worship at the Mount of Olives opposite to the city, whither the glory of the Lord migrated when it left the former city. There stood in truth according to the common and received account the feet of our Lord and Saviour, Himself the Word of God, through that tabernacle of humanity He had borne up the Mount of Olives to the cave that is shewn there; there He prayed and delivered to His disciples on the summit of the Mount of Olives the mysteries of His end, and thence He made His Ascension into heaven, as Luke tells us in the Acts of the Apostles, saying that while the apostles were with Him on the Mount of Olives.”

He adds: “While they beheld he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight. And as they gazed steadfastly into heaven while he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven? This same Jesus that is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

I don't care what those pre RCC fathers said.

I compare Zech 14 to Rev 19(and 20).

It is the exact same event depicted with various descriptions.

It gives a very good understanding of the 2nd coming and the reign of Christ for 1000 years(Rev 20).

We need no extra Biblical commentaries to see this.

 

[Truther]

The dispersion of the Jews is not the 2nd coming.

Jesus did not return in the dust clouds of the Roman horses...LOL

 

[WPM]

I don't care what those pre RCC fathers said.

I compare Zech 14 to Rev 19(and 20).

It is the exact same event depicted with various descriptions.

It gives a very good understanding of the 2nd coming and the reign of Christ for 1000 years(Rev 20).

We need no extra Biblical commentaries to see this.

OK then, do it. Where is the contrast? Show the reader. Claims mean nothing. Please produce the evidence.

 

[covenantee]

Geneva and Bishops were used.

More...Printed English Bibles Before the King James Version

Sure. And so were the others in your link.

And they were used after the KJV, and can even be used today.

None of them or the KJV is any more or less "pure" than any other of them or the KJV.

 

[covenantee]

This is not about heaven or hell if you don't have or read a certain translation.

The trouble is with the one that misrepresents God's word.

That entails the translator.

Folks can be saved with no Bible as long as their instructor tells them the truth.

From where did English instructors before the KJV get their truth?

 

[covenantee]

Interpreting scripture with scripture is a faulty, unreliable, hermeneutic, leading to all sorts of erroneous doctrines. I would never recommend such a worthless pursuit.

Spoken like a devout dispensationalist.

So you believe that when the Bereans searched the Scriptures, they scrupulously avoided interpreting Scripture with Scripture because "interpreting scripture with scripture is a faulty, unreliable, hermeneutic, leading to all sorts of erroneous doctrines."

Instead, we are to interpret Scripture with premil's private delusions, fantasies, and fallacies.

Your claim is beyond inexpressibly absurd. It is an antichristian attack on Scripture which borders on the blasphemous.

 

[Truther]

OK then, do it. Where is the contrast? Show the reader. Claims mean nothing. Please produce the evidence.

Rev 19

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God....

Rev 20

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired,...

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[Truther]

Sure. And so were the others in your link.

And they were used after the KJV, and can even be used today.

None of them or the KJV is any more or less "pure" than any other of them or the KJV.

...so says the man that has no pure word of God which he preaches.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so. You arbitrarily force text after text into your so-called future millennium regardless of the wording of the inspired text, context and consistent meaning. Rev 20 is a dumping ground for all types of events and texts that are totally unrelated. Your failure to corroborate any Premil tenet in Zech 14 is damning.

What did I say that seems forced? I don't think I forced anything at all.

 

[Truther]

From where did English instructors before the KJV get their truth?

They understood ancient Greek far better than the modernists today.

The evidence is the endless redefinitions they propose.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is why it is impossible to engage with you. Name calling and avoidance are your MO. Sad!

I didn't call you a name. I observed your behavior.

 

[covenantee]

...so says the man that has no pure word of God which he preaches.

...so says the man who falls to his knees and prostrates himself in worship before the errant KJV.

 

[WPM]

Rev 19

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God....

Rev 20

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired,...

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This proves nothing. He came with His saints at the First Advent and He will come with them at the Second Advent. I was talking about the same Premil tenets.

 

[covenantee]

They understood ancient Greek far better than the modernists today.

The evidence is the endless redefinitions they propose.

Sure. But like the KJV, they were not inerrant.

 

[WPM]

Spoken like a devout dispensationalist.

So you believe that when the Bereans searched the Scriptures, they scrupulously avoided interpreting Scripture with Scripture because "interpreting scripture with scripture is a faulty, unreliable, hermeneutic, leading to all sorts of erroneous doctrines."

Instead, we are to interpret Scripture with premil's private delusions, fantasies, and fallacies.

Your claim is beyond inexpressibly absurd. It is an antichristian attack on Scripture which borders on the blasphemous.

So true! This is totally damning and exposing at the one time to his theology. No Christian should ever say this.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello! But none of them describe what you attribute to Rev 20. That is because it is false teaching.

Sure they do. But you didn't ask about meaning. Your argument is that I can't find exact, one-for-one correspondence between them.

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish).

Yes, it does. Zechariah 14 says that the Lord reigns over the nations. So does Revelation 20.

The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

No, it doesn't. As @Truther has said, The Second Advent is depicted in Revelation 19. Revelation 20 opens with the binding of Satan, and the establishment of a formal government.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes . . .

Negative. We already talked about this. Jesus comes at the beginning of the Day of the Lord; The big woosh doesn't take place until the end of the Day of the Lord.

Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever.

I has gone, but not forever.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry.

Where?

This is one of the most alarming (and reprehensible) statements I have ever read from "a Christian" on an online discussion forum. It is scandalous, especially purporting to come from a Pastor. Shame on you for saying this! This is an elementary core hermeneutic principle that you trash.

I stand by what I said. Interpreting scripture with scripture may be an elementary core hermeneutic among Christians living today, but then, most Christians don't believe the core gospel either. The scripture with scripture hermeneutic has resulted in most if not all the false doctrine being promoted today.

Imposing your bias school of thought on a Scripture text is wrong.

First, I don't think I have ever told you what hermeneutic I use. So your criticism is empty. Secondly, imposing bias is natural and everyone does it, which is why the best, most beneficial hermeneutic has techniques to eliminate bias. You're hermeneutic does not. Essentially, interpreting scripture with scripture is nothing more than reading a biased interpretation of one passage into another passage. This hermeneutic has no self-correcting aspect, which is why it is prone to error and false doctrine.

You just wing it! This statement embodies exactly what Premillennialism is. Your hermeneutics are all over the place. They are inconsistent and contradictory. You make it up as you go.

From my standpoint, from what you just said, you have admitted that you have no answer for my objection. Zechariah 14 clearly and unambiguously describes the Lord ruling over his enemies, who must come to Jerusalem, once each year, to celebrate the feast of booths. You have no answer for this, which is why you make up stuff about me.

It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scriptures. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

I agree with all three statements here. The central question concerning the inerrancy of scripture can not be answered through the process of eisegesis, which is the result of the Hermeneutic you profess. Any comparison between two passages of scripture must first understand each passage individually, according to the principle of authorial intent, and from within the context of the subject text, before the process of comparison begins.

Interpreting Scripture with scripture does not hold to that principle. One who attempts to interpret scripture with scripture often times reads an interpretation of a New Testament text into an Old Testament text, essentially reading one's own ideas into the Old Testament. But those who examine the OT in context, searching for the meaning that the original author intended, then one is better able to compare the two texts without bias.

If we employ this interpretive rule, I believe, one cannot but arrive at any other conclusion than the coming of Christ is climactic and ushers in eternity.

If one believes what you believe and they use your hermeneutic, they can't avoid seeing it everywhere in the Bible. It's like those who wear rose colored glasses that see pink everywhere.

God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture . . .

Of course. But he does NOT expect us to interpret scripture with scripture. Big difference.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Spoken like a devout dispensationalist.

So you believe that when the Bereans searched the Scriptures, they scrupulously avoided interpreting Scripture with Scripture because "interpreting scripture with scripture is a faulty, unreliable, hermeneutic, leading to all sorts of erroneous doctrines."

Instead, we are to interpret Scripture with premil's private delusions, fantasies, and fallacies.

Your claim is beyond inexpressibly absurd. It is an antichristian attack on Scripture which borders on the blasphemous.

Actually my view, if you cared to take the time to understand it, is more faithful to scripture than the one WPM professed.

And I am not a dispensationalist.

 

[covenantee]

Actually my view, if you cared to take the time to understand it, is more faithful to scripture than the one WPM professed.

Since you decline to link to it, there's nothing to understand.

And I am not a dispensationalist.

Who else declares that Scripture should never be used to interpret Scripture?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So true! This is totally damning and exposing at the one time to his theology. No Christian should ever say this.

I'm not worried about being damned by you. I stand by what I said. The Bible certainly does not interpret itself as some claim. And the idea that scripture interprets scripture is not a holy truth that defines faith or belief. No one is going to hell based on the hermeneutics one should adopt. Your language about being damned for one's hermeneutics cheapens the grave nature of God's will concerning evil and punishment, and the Lord's teaching concerning grace and salvation.