22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Randy Kluth

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Yes I have heard that a lot and have leaned in that direction also. However, thinking about it, A better fit. Also a fit that would not be affected if the final empire was not some exact copy of the old Roman empire. And that is that the prince is Satan so his people also were the kingdom of Rome that destroyed Jerusalem. In other words Satan and his final leader he possesses are the prince that shall come.

The thing I've had a hard time grappling with is the fact the Roman Empire was obviously driven by Satan in its early pagan stages, and then became the vanguard of the emerging Christian empire. How on earth can a satanic empire be Christian and satanic at the same time?

And yet the endtime Roman Empire is portrayed as led by Antichrist, and therefore also by Satan. So there's that.
 

Truth7t7

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The thing I've had a hard time grappling with is the fact the Roman Empire was obviously driven by Satan in its early pagan stages, and then became the vanguard of the emerging Christian empire. How on earth can a satanic empire be Christian and satanic at the same time?

And yet the endtime Roman Empire is portrayed as led by Antichrist, and therefore also by Satan. So there's that.
Your claim that the Roman empire represents the Antichrist is error, he will be a future literal human man of Jewish/Hebrew decent

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV
22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.
 

Marilyn C

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You are totally not getting the spiritual nature of the kingdom of God today. You really need to read up on the New Testament and see what Jesus actually described instead of what you've been taught. Entering in to that spiritual kingdom in this life brings an immediate realization in the ‘here and now’ and on this earth of true “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

Jesus said in Luke 17:21: “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”


The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. It is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It relates to all those who belong to His body. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are real believers. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that kingdom.

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendor, impressive power and magnitude. It is, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which can only be spiritually entered.

Jesus said in John 18:36, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”


Christ couldn’t have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.

As it says in Ephesians 6:12, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places


We fight an invisible enemy. He works in secret. He has to. If he was visible we would immediately recognize him. That is not that he does not work in and through humans, he does.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 says, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”


To enter into spiritual victory you must pull down everything that is not of God and that does not accord with His Word. Every doubt, every fear, every sin, every hurt, every judgmental thought and every bit of unforgiveness must be evicted. The strongholds must be identified and then pulled down. If they are allowed to remain they will make you a victim instead of a victor. Most of the arrows are imaginary and fanciful. If that is so: he makes the illusion look real. The words translated here “imaginations” is the Greek word logismos (log-is-mos') meaning calculation or reasoning.

Ephesians 6:11 instructs the Christian to Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.” Verse 13 continues on the same vein, take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” In Ephesians 6:17 you will find 6 bits of armour for the believer. But the sword of the Spirit” (the Word of God) is the only offensive part of the Christian armoury.


2 Timothy 2:3-4 declares, endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.”


Bro/sis, you are a soldier in an army. You are on active duty. If you are going to be impactful then you are going to have to endure hardness! You are to have to take a few punches. You are going to be rejected. You are going to experience warfare. You are going to fight a dark kingdom. You are going to be put in harm’s way. You will feel resistance.

But Paul gives us sound advice in 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith.”


He directs us in 1 Timothy 1:18 war a good warfare.”


We are not fighting a physical battle with physical weapons but rather a spiritual battle with spiritual weapons.

Yes, we as the Body of Christ are under Christ`s rule, however Christ will put down all rule, all authority and power, just as He said. `For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

BTW God never gave any of His great kingdom away. He created it and He still owns it. What is happening is that rebellious rulerships are being put down.
 

dad

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The thing I've had a hard time grappling with is the fact the Roman Empire was obviously driven by Satan in its early pagan stages

I think that while Nero fiddled Rome was also controlled by Satan. The main thing is the focus of the prophesy, and that was around 70Ad when the city was destroyed. It seems obvious Satan was still in charge. So, the prince in charge then will also be in charge in the last kingdom. Think of the various kingdoms he controlled as a beast that has several heads. The same life and power behind each one despite the different times and looks of each head.
, and then became the vanguard of the emerging Christian empire.
That is debatable as to how christian is really was. But it doesn't matter because the only thing we need to know is that the prince in charge in 70 AD is the same one in charge in the final kingdom.

And yet the endtime Roman Empire is portrayed as led by Antichrist, and therefore also by Satan. So there's that.
Right, the same prince in charge of both, therefore the people of the prince in 70 AD were just that, the people of that same prince that shall come.

Simple.
 
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dad

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Your continued false claims that I support darkness is pure slander, I request that you stop the false claims in slander

Jesus Is The Lord

dad post #4103 removed (to support your darkness)

dad Post #4103 before revision
The Great Tribulation is a certain time and event. There are no others. Your attempts at belittling the truth to support your darkness are exposed.
As explained I fixed the post for the sake of what may be appropriate on a forum. However, light is till light and darkness is darkness, and when people say things like Jesus is back and ruling and there is no millennium or rule on earth of Christ or Rapture etc etc etc, well, that simply is not light. If if feel the shoe fits, don't blame me. If not, stop whining and post interesting relevant content.
 

Truth7t7

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Yes, we as the Body of Christ are under Christ`s rule, however Christ will put down all rule, all authority and power, just as He said. `For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

BTW God never gave any of His great kingdom away. He created it and He still owns it. What is happening is that rebellious rulerships are being put down.
Marilyn you failed to post the most important part, the last enemy destroyed is "Death" and it takes place at the Lord's 2nd coming (The End) no Millennial Kingdom on this earth to follow

1 Corinthians 15:23-26KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 

Marilyn C

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Marilyn you failed to post the most important part, the last enemy destroyed is "Death" and it takes place at the Lord's 2nd coming (The End) no Millennial Kingdom on this earth to follow

1 Corinthians 15:23-26KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The Greek word for `end,` is `telos,` meaning to set out for a definite point or goal. Thus it is a PROCESS.
 

Rita

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Perhaps those who keep throwing accusations at one another could stop and move on and discuss the subject at hand without throwing judgments at one another.
 
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Truth7t7

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Perhaps those who keep throwing accusations at one another could stop and move on and discuss the subject at hand without throwing judgments at one another.
I fully agree

If posters oppose claims of a Millennial Kingdom where Jesus rules on earth or a Pre-Trib Rapture, they are labeled as "Supporting Darkness"

No further response, back to the subject of the thread

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Truth7t7

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The Greek word for `end,` is `telos,` meaning to set out for a definite point or goal. Thus it is a PROCESS.
I Disagree, The King James Translators Didnt Fail Their Readers (The End) Means Exactly What It States (The End)

When Jesus Christ Returns (Then Cometh The End) No Millennial Kingdom On Earth Following As Claimed, It's That Simple

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 15:23-26KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 

Truth7t7

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Right, the same prince in charge of both, therefore the people of the prince in 70 AD were just that, the people of that same prince that shall come.

Simple.
The future antichrist will be a king-ruler of Jewish/Hebrew decent, not from Rome or Italian decent, just as post #4242 explains
 

Truth7t7

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Who asked where he would be from? He is of his father the devil. Why quibble over where he may have been born?
Just stating fact on who the future Antichrist will be, a King-Ruler of Jewish-Hebrew decent

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 11:36-37KJV
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
 

dad

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Just stating fact on who the future Antichrist will be, a King-Ruler of Jewish-Hebrew decent

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 11:36-37KJV
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
I suppose you think that verse supports your claim. So let's say the leader was a Buddhist. That would mean his fathers worshiped Buddha. Etc etc etc. So we could perhaps say 'maybe he will be from Jewish origins'. That is not what you claim. You state it as fact.
 

Truth7t7

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I suppose you think that verse supports your claim. So let's say the leader was a Buddhist. That would mean his fathers worshiped Buddha. Etc etc etc. So we could perhaps say 'maybe he will be from Jewish origins'. That is not what you claim. You state it as fact.
Yes fact is the future Antichrist will be a king/ruler, and he won't be worshipping the Hebrew "God" of his fathers in Jewish/Hebrew decent, it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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