22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[marks]

What in the world are you talking about? You clearly do not understand what corroboration means. I'm simply saying that you don't have any other scripture which supports your interpretation of Revelation 20. I'm not saying that you need to find another scripture which specifically refers to "a thousand years". I'm saying where is the scripture which supports the idea of an earthly kingdom being set up for a long, temporary period of time after the return of Christ?

What I'm saying is this . . .

By your words, IF another prophet referred to a "thousand year kingdom", you would not receive it as corroboration to this passage, you would count it figurative in the same way you count this figurative.

And in this way, you cause me to wonder, why do you even ask for corroboration -

corroboration
noun

1. The act of strengthening; addition of strength.
2. The act of confirming; verification; confirmation: as, the corroboration of the testimony of a witness by other evidence.
3. That which corroborates.

The Century Dictionary.

More at Wordnik

When you would not accept it as such were I to show it to you?

Were Isaiah to say, "a thousand years" you'd consider that figurative as well. That's what you said.

The act of strengthening, addition of strength.

Six times in this passage God says a thousand years, the thousand year. 6 times! Isn't that strenthening His point?

He corroborates His message, only, you think its not valid because it's within the same chapter. Only, even if it wasn't, you'd still think it's not valid.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

You're not addressing my argument at all. Can you please answer the following question. How can the first resurrection occur after the thousand years when the text indicates that those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ during the thousand years?

In other words, how does your view line up with what this verse says:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Also, you do understand that I agree that both the saved and the lost will be bodily resurrected on the last day, right? So, there's no point in you saying that to me as if I disagreed with that. What I disagree with is that being bodily resurrected is required in order to have part in the first resurrection.

You believe "First Resurrection" pertains to being saved, born again,, or whatever in Christ Jesus, I understand and I disagree

Scripture reserves the word "Resurrection" for the believer specifically related to the last day General resurrection of all

The scripture below is speaking of "Two Groups" of the dead in Christ, both groups are in the Lord's eternal spiritual awaiting the last day resurrection, they are blessed to be in the "First Resurrection" on the last day, the "Second Resurrection" is to eternal damnation or the second death in the lake of fire

All believers that have died in faith are reigning with Christ in the eternal realm, the believers are alive and reigning, God is of the living not the dead

The "Symbolic" thousand years ends at the second coming and last day resurrection and it clearly tells the reader "This Is The First Resurrection" Future

1.) Tribulation Saints
2.)Rest Of The Dead, All Others That Have Died In Faith

Revelation 20:4-6KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

There won't be any responses . . .

Much love!

Because you have no response proving a Millennial Kingdom on this earth Mark's, it doesn't exist in scripture, it's a fabricated man made fairy tale

 

[jeffweeder]

You believe "First Resurrection" pertains to being saved, born again,, or whatever in Christ Jesus, I understand and I disagree

Scripture reserves the word "Resurrection" for the believer specifically related to the last day General resurrection of all

The scripture below is speaking of "Two Groups" of the dead in Christ, both groups are in the Lord's eternal spiritual awaiting the last day resurrection, they are blessed to be in the "First Resurrection" on the last day, the "Second Resurrection" is to eternal damnation or the second death in the lake of fire

All believers that have died in faith are reigning with Christ in the eternal realm, the believers are alive and reigning, God is of the living not the dead

The "Symbolic" thousand years ends at the second coming and last day resurrection and it clearly tells the reader "This Is The First Resurrection" Future

1.) Tribulation Saints
2.)Rest Of The Dead, All Others That Have Died In Faith

Revelation 20:4-6KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

But our assurance of not being hurt by the second death is not based on a physical resurrection but a spiritual one in Jn 5.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. What does every single reference regarding the Lords second coming allude to? Premill or Amill scenario?

Clearly Amill, of course. We have several passages which talk about Him destroying all of His enemies when He returns. And what about His people? We will be changed to have immortal bodies. So, where do these mortals come from that would populate this supposed earthly millennial kingdom? Scripture simply doesn't teach such a thing.

Instead, it shows the judgment occurring right after He returns in passages like Matthew 25:31-46. What type of kingdom will the sheep (representing believers) inherit? A temporary earthly one as premils believe? No! It says they will inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) at that time, so it's an eternal kingdom. But, the kingdom that premils think we will inherit is not eternal because it's not on the eternal new earth. Also, premils have people with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God at Christ's return, which contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50 where he said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".

 

[Truth7t7]

What I'm saying is this . . .

By your words, IF another prophet referred to a "thousand year kingdom", you would not receive it as corroboration to this passage, you would count it figurative in the same way you count this figurative.

And in this way, you cause me to wonder, why do you even ask for corroboration -

corroboration
noun

1. The act of strengthening; addition of strength.
2. The act of confirming; verification; confirmation: as, the corroboration of the testimony of a witness by other evidence.
3. That which corroborates.

The Century Dictionary.

More at Wordnik

When you would not accept it as such were I to show it to you?

Were Isaiah to say, "a thousand years" you'd consider that figurative as well. That's what you said.

The act of strengthening, addition of strength.

Six times in this passage God says a thousand years, the thousand year. 6 times! Isn't that strenthening His point?

He corroborates His message, only, you think its not valid because it's within the same chapter. Only, even if it wasn't, you'd still think it's not valid.

Much love!

Revelation 20 doesn't show your claimed Millennial Kingdom on this earth, there isn't any scripture to corroborate something that doesn't exist

 

[Truth7t7]

But our assurance of not being hurt by the second death is not based on a physical resurrection but a spiritual one in Jn 5.

I Disagree, the word "Resurrection" is reserved in scripture for the event that will take place on the last day at the Second Coming

The words (First Resurrection) pertain to the last day resurrection of the righteous, while the (Second Death) pertains to the (Second Resurrection) to the lake of fire

Do you believe in a "future" resurrection of the dead in Christ at the second coming?

If so, do you believe that "Two Groups" will be resurrected on this last day 1. Righteous 2. Wicked?

 

[WPM]

What I'm saying is that this

Revelation 20:2-3 KJV
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

is corroborated here

Revelation 20:7-8 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And you want to see it in some other part of the Bible. Further away. Different place not just in the chapter, but some other chapter, some other book.

Maybe you can corroborate that for me, am I correct about what you are saying?

Much love!

You corroborate your faulty opinion of Revelation 20 by your faulty opinion of Revelation 20. Lol. That is not corroboration.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You believe "First Resurrection" pertains to being saved, born again,, or whatever in Christ Jesus, I understand and I disagree

Scripture reserves the word "Resurrection" for the believer specifically related to the last day General resurrection of all

It also uses that word to describe Christ's resurrection. His resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Corinthians 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and we all have had part in it spiritually.

The scripture below is speaking of "Two Groups" of the dead in Christ, both groups are in the Lord's eternal spiritual awaiting the last day resurrection, they are blessed to be in the "First Resurrection" on the last day, the "Second Resurrection" is to eternal damnation or the second death in the lake of fire

All believers that have died in faith are reigning with Christ in the eternal realm, the believers are alive and reigning, God is of the living not the dead

The "Symbolic" thousand years ends at the second coming and last day resurrection and it clearly tells the reader "This Is The First Resurrection" Future

1.) Tribulation Saints
2.)Rest Of The Dead, All Others That Have Died In Faith

Revelation 20:4-6KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What you're saying here does not take into account Satan's little season that follows the thousand years.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The thousand years does not end at the last day as you claim since there are a little season's worth of days which follow the end of the thousand years. So, the last day is not the last day of the thousand years, as you think, it is instead the last day of Satan's little season. Those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ DURING the thousand years, so, with that in mind, how can the first resurrection occur AFTER the thousand years?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The reason I don't engage in many of these debates is that the opposing view seems so often to be based on complex arguments for why we should not believe the plain readings of passages.

I'm not interesting in the mere discounting of truth, "It says That, but it means This", with all this convoluted reasoning, where each have their own version.

When the Bible says that God will bring Jacob's children back to their promised land, I read it, I believe it, and why should it be any different?

The disbelief in God's divine continuance of Isreal as a nation has resulted in so much confusion, in replacement theology and it's spin offs, and in communicating the idea that you can't just accept what you read, Oh No, Israel is Gone, don't you see??? Now Israel is back, but the disbelief remains.

For me, there's not much to say to someone who claims that Scripture means other than what it says. I can show how it should be accepted as written, and if that's received, good. Seldom is it received.

I just can never get over how many times I see a debate end on that point, some particular passage that says a certain thing, and the assertion is, "It really means something else".

Much love!

Oh you're absolutely right, and well said! However, I engage people on this because the momentum built up in the Church over many generations that adheres to Replacement Theology and Amillennialism is substantial, and justifies a certain amount of time spent on it. My own changes have taken place over a long period of time, largely because I wasn't given enough truth--mostly just historical theologies and traditional doctrines. Not much was said about modern developments in Israel except by Dispensationalists, which is just another theology and another doctrine.

So I weigh all of these things critically and listen for God to speak to me through whatever vehicle He chooses to speak to me. Sometimes it is my own study, sometimes it is through ministries, and sometimes it is even through enemies. But I want to remain open on all subjects because quite frankly, God is my Lord. Whatever He says goes, and all of my pride goes out the window. This has been my stand for many years, and my intention is to remain there until the end.

Thanks brother. Sage advice!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I Disagree, however the words (First Resurrection) pertain to the last day resurrection of the righteous, while the (Second Death) pertains to the (Second Resurrection) to the lake of fire

Do you believe in a "future" resurrection of the dead in Christ at the second coming?

If so, do you believe that "Two Groups" will be resurrected on this last day 1. Righteous 2. Wicked?

All Amils believe that. That is not the source of the disagreement between your particular Amil view and the Amil view of people like myself, WPM and jeffweeder.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. It is false accusing and insults.

You're going to have to let God be the judge.

 

[marks]

Is that a problem for you? Is it not important to you that your interpretation of Revelation 20 not contradict any other scripture?

Correct understandings of Scripture will harmonize with all other Scripture without denying any of it.

Yes, of course that is what I'm saying. Surely, I'm not asking you to corroborate Revelation 20 with...Revelation 20.

Why the arbitrary division? Why does it matter from paragraph to paragraph or chapter to chapter? God gave us all the Scripture, His Word is truth, and, not to belabor the point, but He repeated this six times in some very normal language towards speaking about a certain period of time.

When "the thousand years are over" . . . which thousand years? These thousand years. This is very straightfoward, and no cause to not believe it.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

It also uses that word to describe Christ's resurrection. His resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Corinthians 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and we all have had part in it spiritually.

What you're saying here does not take into account Satan's little season that follows the thousand years.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The thousand years does not end at the last day as you claim since there are a little season's worth of days which follow the end of the thousand years. So, the last day is not the last day of the thousand years, as you think, it is instead the last day of Satan's little season. Those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ DURING the thousand years, so, with that in mind, how can the first resurrection occur AFTER the thousand years?

We disagree on the subject of the word (Thousand Years) and it meaning nothing more than the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, not a literal time frame as you suggest 2 Peter 3:8

If a believer were to physically die(one earthly minute) before the second coming they enter into the non-literal thousand year reign

Hope that helps you understand my observation of scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I'm saying is this . . .

By your words, IF another prophet referred to a "thousand year kingdom", you would not receive it as corroboration to this passage, you would count it figurative in the same way you count this figurative.

It depends. Would he be talking about it in terms of occurring before or after the second coming of Christ?

And in this way, you cause me to wonder, why do you even ask for corroboration -

Because our interpretations of any given passage should line up with the rest of scripture and not contradict any other scripture. Surely, you understand that? Or don't you?

corroboration
noun

1. The act of strengthening; addition of strength.
2. The act of confirming; verification; confirmation: as, the corroboration of the testimony of a witness by other evidence.
3. That which corroborates.

The Century Dictionary.

More at Wordnik

When you would not accept it as such were I to show it to you?

Accept what exactly? Show me what exactly? If there was a scripture which made it clear that it was meant to be taken literally and indicated that there would be a thousand year earthly kingdom after the return of Christ, then of course I would accept that. But, there is no such scripture. And there's no scripture which supports that concept of an earthly kingdom being set up at the return of Christ. That's the point.

Were Isaiah to say, "a thousand years" you'd consider that figurative as well. That's what you said.

In what context? Why are you so vague? What would the context be? How can I address that without you giving me the context of this hypothetical scenario?

The act of strengthening, addition of strength.

Six times in this passage God says a thousand years, the thousand year. 6 times! Isn't that strenthening His point?

The number of times a term is mentioned has NOTHING to do with whether it is literal or not. The beast is referred to over 30 times in the book of Revelation. Does that make it a literal beast?

He corroborates His message, only, you think its not valid because it's within the same chapter. Only, even if it wasn't, you'd still think it's not valid.

LOL. You are not getting the point. At all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We disagree on the subject of the word (Thousand Years) and it meaning nothing more than the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, not a literal time frame as you suggest

You can see that it says Satan is loosed when the thousand years comes to an end, right? It says so in Revelation 20:3 and Revelation 20:7. What does that mean to you? How can the last day occur on the last day of the thousand years when it clearly indicates that Satan's little season follows the thousand years? That means the last day would occur when Satan's little season ends, not when the thousand years ends. Please address this.

If a believer were to physically die(one earthly minute) before the second coming they enter into the non-literal thousand year reign

So, wouldn't they have had part in the first resurrection at that point then? It says those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ during the non-literal thousand years. But, you keep saying that the first resurrection doesn't occur until after the thousand years.

Hope that helps you understand my observation of scripture

What I'm looking for at this point is how your view takes into account Satan's little season. So, can you please explain that?

 

[jeffweeder]

I fully agree 100%, however the words (First Resurrection) pertain to the last day resurrection of the righteous, while the (Second Death) pertains to the (Second Resurrection) to the lake of fire

Do you believe in a "future" resurrection of the dead in Christ at the second coming?

If so, do you believe that "Two Groups" will be resurrected on this last day 1. Righteous 2. Wicked?

Yes I believe in a bodily resurrection of those 2 groups at the end.

However the first resurrection refers to this in Jn 5...,

24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

Bodily resurrection follows...,

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

 

[Randy Kluth]

Listen to how God revealed Christ to the wisemen in Matthew 2:1-2: “behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”

Here you have it! The sacred text testifies to the fact that Jesus Christ was “born King of the Jews.”

He was born *to be King over the eschatological Kingdom.* To be sure, he is King by virtue of his Deity. But he did not come to immediately be King over Israel and over the world in God's eschatological Kingdom. We know that because...

Luke 19.11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Before Jesus death in John 18:36 Jesus told Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Jesus here refers to the fact that Satan presently rules over the world, and in the future, God's heavenly Kingdom will conquer the evil rulers of this world and establish His Kingdom here on earth.

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

[marks]

Because our interpretations of any given passage should line up with the rest of scripture and not contradict any other scripture. Surely, you understand that? Or don't you?

Maybe you don't read too many of my posts. I continually affirm that correct understandings of the Bible will harmonize with the other parts of the Bible without requiring us to discount the meaning of any part of it.

The most common reason I see for doctrinal disagreement is that one side of the argument is asserting that the plain saying of a particular passage should not be understood as what it appears to be saying.

Like in this case. It seems to say that there will be a thousand year kingdom, but if your view is correct, the more real way to say it would be there will be a kingdom of a long but unspecified duration.

I hold to the thousand years, you hold to the long but unspecified duration.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes I believe in a bodily resurrection of those 2 groups at the end.

However the first resurrection refers to this in Jn 5...,

24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

Bodily resurrection follows...,

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

Right. John 5:24-25 describes how someone has part in the first resurrection. Having part in the first resurrection results in the second death not having power over you (Rev 20:6). We do not have to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over us. The second death doesn't have power over any believer right now because we belong to Christ and have been given new spiritual life after previously being dead in our sins (Eph 2:1-6).